For the life of me I can't understand why someone would try this much less why a PH would allow it?

Cape Buffalo with a spear.

I saw his(Wells) show on this and they first tried to spear a buff while out in a flood plain using the tall grass as cover. The buff discovered them and took off running but Tim still tried to run close enough for a throw but couldn't do it. If he had thrown the spear there is no telling where he would have hit it if at all. The sleeping buff was much more appropriate.

quote:

Originally posted by nilgi:
... much less why a PH would allow it?

well it does not only relate to spear hunting DG,
i.e; - why does Mark Sullivan accept DG clients that he knows can't shoot a rifle for sh*t..??

MS has categorically stated that his clients are poor shots.
Poor misplaced shots with spear or rifle on DG, whats the diff?

Yet we hear people on AR ardently defending MS all the time.

in any case this particular video has been discussed before on AR.

One should note that when WDM Bell was hunting ele and Cape buff, he wrote he would go out with natives who armed themselves with soft iron spears.
They would charge into herds of wild Cape Buff and slay them, and then chase down the escaping cape buffalo in the dispersing herd and slay them also.
HE wrote that the natives came out unscathed after such hunting forays....& of the 700 odd Cape buff Bell shot, he states he never encountered a charge.

supposedly this occurred in Moz. i am curious to know if it is even legal there...

Please ignore Trax...he is a known TROLL and is only trying to disrupt the thread

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
supposedly this occurred in Moz. i am curious to know if it is even legal there...

Coutada 10

Don't believe I'd be interested.......

Mr Wells is up to these stunts for the sake of publicity. He s a TV hunting show personality. His last video, he was hunting a Sasquatch!
Thats how much credibility he desreves

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
supposedly this occurred in Moz. i am curious to know if it is even legal there...

Coutada 10

but is it legal??

So let me get this straight, if he doesn't do exactly what you do he's to be discredited? If you don't like it don't watch.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
So let me get this straight, if he doesn't do exactly what you do he's to be discredited? If you don't like it don't watch.

I don't think that is point.

The point raised is whether the hunt is legal. Because we all know he is doing it as a stunt for publicity.

you are correct, Saeed. to hunt dangerous game in ALL African countries you must meet certain standards- primarily energy levels with rifles and bow draw weight/energy levels with a bow. i simply wonder what the energy requirements are with a spear( since i doubt such regulations exist). i am sure special permits can be issued when enough money changes hands. the situation is similar to what exists with handgun hunting- but probably more nebulous.

Plus no doubt plenty of fire power for back up too.
George

One thing is to do illegal things when no one is watching and don´t even take a picture of it (it´s also wrong) but I truly don´t believe an illegal act would be filmed and shown to the world to see, it would not be risky, it would be plain stupid. I don´t know the laws in Mozambique, but I believe there is not a minimum to hunt dangerous game.

I KNOW for a fact that some hunts posted on youtube were illegal in the areas they were conducted.

But, youtube being youtube, no one cares.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by nilgi:
... much less why a PH would allow it?

well it does not only relate to spear hunting DG,
i.e; - why does Mark Sullivan accept DG clients that he knows can't shoot a rifle for sh*t..??

MS has categorically stated that his clients are poor shots.
Poor misplaced shots with spear or rifle on DG, whats the diff?

Yet we hear people on AR ardently defending MS all the time.

in any case this particular video has been discussed before on AR.

One should note that when WDM Bell was hunting ele and Cape buff, he wrote he would go out with natives who armed themselves with soft iron spears.
They would charge into herds of wild Cape Buff and slay them, and then chase down the escaping cape buffalo in the dispersing herd and slay them also.
HE wrote that the natives came out unscathed after such hunting forays....& of the 700 odd Cape buff Bell shot, he states he never encountered a charge.

look, trax managed to trash mark sullivan and talk about bell's exploits all in the same post. how shockingly unusual.

This was a stunt that showed a total lack of respect for the animal. After the kill the laughing and celebrating compounded that disrespect.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nilgi:
... much less why a PH would allow it?

well it does not only relate to spear hunting DG,
i.e; - why does Mark Sullivan accept DG clients that he knows can't shoot a rifle for sh*t..??

MS has categorically stated that his clients are poor shots.

______________________________________________

Trax: When you book a (new) client one never knows how he shoots. You have to wait til Day #1 of the hunt to find out.... I've been going to SCI for many years and have not noticed a SHOOTING RANGE inside anyone's booth!!
I've been PHing a long time and have seen clients who were:
1) Excellent shots
2) very good shots
3) Good-average Shots
4) Fair shots
5) poor shots
6) Unbelievable shitty shots
7) Hunters who should not be hunting at all, and should probably take up golf. (one or two)

Legalities aside (which I'm sure it is or why would marromeu allow it?), who cares? Tim does some "crazy" hunts. Like others, he gets both negative and positive feedback about his adventures. Some of you have to come to terms with the fact that not everyone hunts the exact way that you do and the way you think others should.

I don't think that his actions portrays hunters in a bad light whatsoever for his "stunt". For example, Tim shot a grizzly bear in the head with his bow a number of years ago. That is the cleanest kill I've ever saw on a tv show. I know most of the people commenting so far would call it unethical and disrespectful. I watched all of his Moz episodes and enjoyed them. He shines a different light onto our sport that is in no way bad. Tim is one of the best (certainly the most well known) traditional hunters in the western world. He bow hunts instinctively and is one of the best shots out there. He also routinely uses a spear and uses it successfully.

A few days ago people were reminiscing over a hunt Bill Jones did in Moz. He shot a buff with a small caliber rifle because it is legal and because the rifle he used is storied. If some tv show host had done this because he was hungry for "publicity" AR would've roasted him for it. It would also have been labelled as disrespectful because of the well known fact that African game is unkillable with anything less than a .375.

What irritates me the most though is the fact that he is being lambasted for celebrating his success. I don't know about a lot of you but I am always joyful when a hunt culminates in success (I enjoy the failures too). Who are you to judge what emotion somebody displays? Do you cry and mope and spiral into depression after killing an animal? I think not. But I can hardly believe that somebody has never laughed amongst their hunting party after a kill or become excited.

quote:

But I can hardly believe that somebody has never laughed amongst their hunting party after a kill or become excited.

quote:

What irritates me the most though is the fact that he is being lambasted for celebrating his success.

Sorry you are irritated. I believe the celebration/laughing shown in this video clip is inappropriate.

Buff must have been deaf for him to get soo close on that ground...

Looks like the ph is fiddling with his gun as they chase after the buff - reloading after firing a shot or two?

I also find strange that the hunter missed the buff on the second throw of the spear from a very close distance?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Buff must have been deaf for him to get soo close on that ground...

Looks like the ph is fiddling with his gun as they chase after the buff - reloading after firing a shot or two?

I also find strange that the hunter missed the buff on the second throw of the spear from a very close distance?

Just watched it too.

Lots of questions come to mind, but one thing is never in doubt.

"Look how brave I am" killing a cape buffalo with a spear.

Why is there a man with a rifle there then?

Did he get involved, and was edited out?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Why is there a man with a rifle there then?

Why?
...most likely to do the same thing he would do if the client used a rifle and then got himself into a jam because of poor shooting.

Once the PH desperately find the need to stop the clients DG for them, i don't really matter what type of weapon the client fails with.

We have all seen videos of recreational hunters with BG rifles, where the PH has to in a forceable voice instruct/remind the inept client to reload
as the wounded DG gets closer...its like client has fallen into a mental daze and needs to be 'mothered' or woken up, to finish the job he started....

Ah but a normal hunter is not out to prove his mettle against an animal.

This one is.

And I would really like to see the raw footage, as each time I see that video the more I think some shooting has been going on

It is illegal in Zim. The SI that a drew up to make bow hunting legal without any sort of special permit, and dangerous game on application, I was instructed to make it legal ONLY with a compound bow. Crossbows were also banned.

I know that Moz has a minimum of 6,5 mm (.256) for dangerous game...in fact hunting any mammal. However, the Zimbabwe legislation left a clause for the Director General to allow the use of a long bow or compound, or a rifle with a barrel shorter than 20", for a fee which would be equal to the trophy fee of the animal being hunted. I expect that Moz's far more broad and simple legislation would all allow the Director of Wildlife or the minister could, quite legally, issue a special permit.

Well, the native(black)Africans used spears. Surely it hasn't been outlawed for them, outside of poaching of course, so why for anyone else?

Backing him up with a rifle is the PH's obligation. It is no different than the hundreds/thousands of others who hunt buffalo every year with a rifle.

Criticizing him for having a guy milling about with a rifle on his spear hunt is quite unjustified. I am entirely positive that everyone (except local hunters and guys doing chasse libre style hunts) that hunts dangerous game has a PH carrying a rifle with them. Are they not brave? Is the level of bravery measured by what means of back up is available? Perhaps gun hunters should have a PH toting an RPG. Bow hunters may be just qualified to have a gun as back up. Only because they aren't brave enough to use a spear, the poor hunters they are.

This bashing of Tim is why hunting is not a sustainable sport. We bitch and we moan and we groan amongst ourselves about the antis and the tree huggers and our ever shrinking sport. Lost opportunities, closed seasons/countries, the CITES listing of species, lead ammo bans, and a plethora of other subjects are always being discussed in little circles. And here we are talking trash about a man who makes his living doing the very thing we love to do as recreation.

Us hunters are a divisive bunch that have no problem insulting and bashing one another. Most of the time it is behind ones back or on internet forums. It would be nice to see that come to an end. We have a poor enough public perception that things like this don't need to happen. It just exacerbates our problems if we can't at least appear to be united.

And just out of curiosity, who here IS brave enough to hunt a buffalo with a spear? I don't think I am. But I have hunted brown bears in thick forest and ferns with a bow. And there wasn't a gun around for miles.

Actually, blocking local native hunters, like the Shagaan who do use long bows for hunting is precisely why the stipulates only compound bows may be used (here in zim at any rate). It is also the logic behind the 20" barrel length rule. Poor tribesmen are likely to be poachers and they will use a long bow or an AK47 so when you catch them, in court you can nail them for hunting without a license and using an illegal means to hunt.

Of course- this only applies to poor subsistence poachers. The guys with the Mil 35 helicopter gunshps or drums of cyanide are above the law