I had a 270 winchester that I carried on my short hunting days, it shot great with the open sights, fit well, and was lighter.

I also love the look of an old english style (drop in the comb, thin, shorter forend) sporting rifle that has the open sights.

Do rifles like this still have a place other than just because we like them? For Jumbo and other nasties up close?

How many of you have rifles setup this way, with no accomodation (even if tapped, not wearing bases) for a scope?

Red
PS
My late gunsmith, God bless him, as a favor surface ground my argentine, with it's beautiful perfect crest and unmolested (no holes) ring and bridge. sniff, there goes my perfect 275 Rigby dream.

My double has no provisions for optics, never will. For up close and personal work in the long grass or thick stuff, I think that is the only way to go.

Dago, I think you are right. An open sighted rifle has very limited application. Yes I'm sure you will find folks who will trumpet their 300 yard shot with open sights (and a double rifle) but ask yourself, would you take that shot next to a park that your $10,000 trophy fee could walk into? Perhaps you would. Heavy rifles have low magnification optics for a reason...flexibility! My 416 Rigby has a scope, as does my 375H&H as well as my 450 x 3 1/4 double. Why, to ensure as best I can, that the shot I take, will be a good one, as well as expanding the number of opportunities. Of course, I could just have very limited abilities, in which case that is exactly why I need a scope and others, of far superior abilities, don't. Just my 2 cents.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
Is there still a place for rifles w/out scopes?

Yes. It's called Africa.

I carried an open sighted CZ 550 in 458 to Zim last fall for elephant. My PH was of course a little wary but after I made a 120 yard shot on an impala he perked up. I also shot a giraffe at 90yds. The elephant was a side brain affair at 38. I enjoyed the open sights and their limitations.

These need no scope and have no place for one!

I left my 1938 Westley Richards 375 just the way it was made. It has leaf express sights, but also a fold down ladder sight for long distance, which I wouldn't use. Ele and Buff are fine with open sights. Lon Paul is restoring a Rigby takedown in 350 Rigby Magnum, and that will be left with iron sights as well.

Two safari's ago I carried a .318 Westley Richards and a .404 Jeffrey. Both carried only peep sights and both shot exactly where I wanted them to. Results? 1 cape buff, 1 bush pig, 1 bushbuck, 1 nyala, 1 blesbuck. Every shot was under 120 yards and the only time I ran into trouble with shot placement was because I rushed. Yeah, Africa is a fine place for rifles with iron sights!

I shot open sights out to 600 yards in competition for years and did pretty well.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
I had a 270 winchester that I carried on my short hunting days, it shot great with the open sights, fit well, and was lighter.

I find that rifles carry much, much better without scopes. I know PH will give you many reasons for their back-up rifles not having scopes, but I have always wondered how much it might be due to the ease of carry of an un-scoped rifle.

I have come to hate large scopes as they seem to interfere with carrying the rifle in the most comfortable positions. Scoped rifles are cumbersome.

Plenty of situations where a scopeless rifle is not only useable but preferred.

I have a half dozen rifles set up with open sights only. A couple of lever rifles, bolts and a couple of double rifles, from 22 through 458.

No elephant rifle should wear a scope.

Other situations where a scope is a handicap include rain, snow and tracking or still hunting through thick stuff.

And there are more situations where not having a scope is no handicap, but not an advantage either.

JPK

While most of my rifles do have scopes, simply to help make up for age related eyesight deterioration, and due to the terrain in which I normally hunt, I do have a couple that are not scoped.

To me it boils down to individual preferences and disciplines.

Shots do not Have to be taken at long range, scope or no scope.

I feel that some folks, try to use a scope to make up for lack of actual hunting skill/knowledge, I feel the same way about many of the other "Gadgets" available.

I really don't see anyone, anywhere mandating scope use on hunting rifles.

To each their own.

If you take your scope off of a rifle, it must be replaced. With practice.

I will add that older age and express style sights may present problems for some, but that does not apply to apperature sights, which eliminate the source of the problem for aging eyes. For some, with age, past 40 in some cases, comes the inability to focus the rear sight while maintaining focus of the front bead or blade. Remove the need to focus the rear sight and all is well.

JPK

Now that you mention it, I have more rifles that are irons-only rigs. My Merkel 470 and my Husky M98 9.3x62 were the first two that came to mind. Then I thought about it more and realized, My #1H 458, my Marlin 1895, my 1885, my Rolling Block... all irons-only. So I guess, yes, there is still very much a place for iron sight only rifles...and not just in the long grass either!

Iron sights have their place, but not as a general proposition, as they are not the most useful option across the board.

I have several iron-sight only rifles.

But in my experience, if there's a chance that a shot on a game animal will have to be made at over 75-100 yards, then a scope offers a significant advantage.

It's all about shot placement - end of story.

Hell, even battle rifles wear scopes these days.

+1 . Several of mine also have iron sights, but they have their place, and I also know my limitations with them at my age and under the hunting/shooting conditions that I am exposed to in using them.

My two elephants were shot with open sights on my 458wm. Have a scope with detachable mounts, however, have not used it yet.

I`m doing a Custom made Mauser K98 in caliber 458 Win Mag Acley Improved, this one will be built without scope, just the ironsight.

I will call this caliber a 450 Acley Short

I think this will shoot well

....................……………………….Is there a place for iron sights today?

The answer to that question is a resounding “YES”! If I were a PH specializing in elephant hunting I would not recommend a client use a scope on his rifle. Nor would I as a PH ever use a scoped rifle while guiding a client in any bush that produces dangerous game, even if hunting only plains game.

I think you will find with only a small amount of looking, that you will see very few, if any PHs who carry a scoped rifle. There is a reason for this and we all know the reason is when things get dicey and shot placement is critical to STOP an animal in it’s tracks, nothing beats a well regulated iron sighted rifle! In close on an elephant that is charging you nothing short of a brain shot will stop him for good. In that case a very close elephant’s head will give you nothing more than a scope full of gray wrinkled skin, and no precise aiming point to place the bullet is a very critical situation. Irons on the other hand will let you see the whole head, and the ever-changing angle to place that very important shot!

Having said all the above, let me also say there is a need for scopes as well! One place is with folks who simply cannot see Irons, and another is a specialized scope set-up that is used for shooting Leopard, or Lion over bait, to combat the fading light. Certainly a quality scope is a boon to success for shooting things like P-dogs, or sheep, and elk, along with plains game in Africa. However it is my opinion that no hunting rifle should be built with a scope only! Any rifle used for hunting should be fitted with quality Quick detach rings and mounts that return to zero every time, if a scope is used. However all rifles regardless of what is hunted with it should be fitted with quality iron sights as well.

The rifle with a scope only is a specialized rifle, and has its drawbacks as well as its advantages. A s well the iron sighted rifle has it’s limitations as well, but when you combine the two systems on the same rifle properly, that rifle will never leave you stranded in the hunting fields because of a sighting problem. However it remains the responsibility of the owner to practice with both sighting systems.

...........................

It always comes back to how quick you can set up the sight picture. Every user of open and peep sights knows how quick it is. (My experience before I ever saw Africa was in Northeastern and Canadian woods) The Westerners (in the US) are accustomed to shooting at quite long ranges. (Want to try a shot with open sights or peep at a mountain goat or sheep at 400 yards?) The point being made by experienced posters is that you are shooting at something the size of a barn door - and the barn door decided to charge close up. I guess, what I'm trying to say is that we non African hunters and African hunters are talking at cross purposes. The scope can be fine -where the DG is not on top of you. That's my final thought -and why I'll go with the experts who have shot DG nearly on top of them. Just my thoughts.

I have apertures on my two main rifles, and while it is easily understood why the 404 is not scoped, I have my 7x57 for general hunting unscoped as well. I have a scope in qd rings in my day pack but have taken a stationary goat at 145yds and three more on the move out to 185yds without feeling the need for glass. Love the feel of an unscoped rifle in the hand. The balance of the rifle is imeasurably improved IMHO.

Von Gruff.

I think shooting with iron sights should be practiced ALOT more than it is nowadays. Kids aren't learning to shoot with irons at all, it's always a scoped gun they're learning with, if they ever learn to shoot irons.

I also don't see much sense in a no iron sight hunting rifle. What happens if your 10 miles from the nearest road, you drop your gun and the scope breaks? With the iron sight rifle, you detatch the scope, and besides being a little more limited on your shot distance, you keep hunting. With a non-iron sight rifle, you hike your happy ass back to the nearest sporting goods store, and you either waste alot of time or possibly ruin your trip.

The older I get the more I don't see these 200-300+ yd. shots on game as hunting. What kind of skill does it take to get to within 300 yds of an animal?

But that is just my opinion.

I've seen a bunch here about ele hunting with iron sights but I have a story about a bushbuck. We hunted for four days with no luck and while heading back to the truck for lunch we found my buck at about 20 yds in deep shade. Tracker set up the sticks; PH whispered in my ear "shoot now!! Why don't you shoot." I couldn't get the animal in my scope. Up or down: just could'nt find him. I just could'nt get him in the scope and was about to shoot over the barrel (no iron sights) when he suddenly appeared in the scope and I put a round through his neck. Glad it was'nt an ele.
kh

I spent an entire two country safari with irons. I took a buff, bushbuck, bushpig, nyala, blesbok and an impala. The longest shot was 110 yards. No problems.

quote:

I think shooting with iron sights should be practiced ALOT more than it is nowadays. Kids aren't learning to shoot with irons at all, it's always a scoped gun they're learning with, if they ever learn to shoot irons.

A very valid point. My buddy's son-in-law couldn't hit a dummy whitetail at thirty yards with my .458 Win, using NECG fiber front and rear peep, because he is a South Carolina whitetail hunter and had only shot handguns with irons. He missed the entire mockup with a factory 510 grain Winchester soft.

Von Gruff

This very old American always liked {and admired - I know what you guys did in two world wars} the New Zealanders but now I know you guys know a superb cartridge (when I read that you use a 7x57 -my very favorite cartridge for many years in the States (and if I had ever gotten back to Africa would have been my selection for leopard)You are absolutely right about the shift in balance of feel when carrying a rifle in your hand -as to whether scoped or iron. With iron, I never felt "weighed down" in carrying the rifle. I totally agree with the poster who wanted kids to learn to shoot over open or through peep sights. Young eyes can readily handle with iron sights what older eyes need a scope for. To this day, I think of the scope as a sight to use when you have time to "set up" for the shot and that the shot is not close up.

I think of the aperture sight as a 200-250 yd hunting sight and is a superb match for the old standards from the 7x57 right up through to the heavies.

Speaking of what was done in the wars, we have the second part of "THE PACIFIC" on the box tonight. The Band of Brothers played as a lead up in the previous weeks. These MEN put the world to rights with open sights. We have ANZAC DAY next Sunday (25th April) to remember our fallen. God Bless them all.

Von Gruff.

I would say so! I am using this 1885 in .405 Winchester exclusively in North America this year: