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I wonder if Hornady knows more than Taylor did? HITS calculator The "Hornady Index of Terminal Standards" calculator is a resource designed to help hunters choose effective bullet/cartride combinations for any hunting situation in the world. Traditional muzzle energy figures do not take into account for the manner in which energy is transferred from the bullet to game animals. HITS factors in Bullet Weight, Sectional Density, Ballistics Coefficient, and Impact Velocity and delivers a rating that will fall into one of the four classifications below. Bullet construction is also a very important factor to consider. Desperate I presume. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | ||
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And why do you presume desperate? Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?[/] [i] Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Will - Maybe this could be informative to those of us that are not gun/bullet/load experts? I for one, am certainly not! Do you think its in-accurate?? I ask, because I honestly don't know??? | |||
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I just looked at it, and just as I had imagined. Another silly calculator to keep the arguments going, while having absolutely no practical advantage in reality. | |||
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Most likely very little use to experienced folks... but it is really nothing more than a form of advertising... a little tool to attract people to their website and "hold their eyeballs" for a little longer I would not call this desperate in any way, shape, or form. To do so would basically mean any form of advertising is desperation. I fooled around with it and it provides reasonably accurate responses Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?[/] [i] Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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If you input the nominal info for the .318 Westley Richards, it comes up suitable for dangerous game!! Hate to recall how effective that is against a snare-wounded buffalo. Believe what you want I guess. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Not to start a fire, because I have ZERO experience, but since you mentioned Taylor. . . I'm actually reading African Rifles and Cartridges right now, and Taylor believes the .318 fine for dangerous game in open country I have no idea one way or the other, but I'm sure I wouldn't pick that as a first choice for dangerous game Bake | |||
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Well, let me see...Ja, I'd be willing to take a 318 WR. Would it work on any of the DG species with a well placed shot? Sure! Is it optimal? No. Would I need to be desperate before I used a 318 WR on a DG animal? Nah. | |||
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Same old, same old. The .375 Holland & Holland will do it all but I agree with Will that a .40+ caliber would be best for Elephant. Maybe better for buffalo and other dangerous game also but I am proficient with the .375 H&H for everything except elephant which I've never hunted. I believe the .470 or .500 Nitro Express are the best of the best for elephant hunting. However, Will has elephant experience and I guess I would defer to his suggestions for dangerous game up close. thanks, jfm | |||
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It's a formula, it provides guidance not an answer. The purpose of most mathematical calculations are a decision not a number. I also don't know if I would want a 9,3x62 with 286's against a "snare wounded buffalo" I so love predictably...AR reassures me that there are some constants in the universe. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?[/] [i] Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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250 grain bullet with awesome sectional density at 2400 FPS. Yup, sounds like a winner to me! | |||
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I like your style. You are a man after my own heart. That reminds me. Idahosharpshooter is supposed to pay for me to hunt a buffalo with a 30-06. I better PM him. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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It's easy to stop a wounded buff with a .318 WR, when a reflection on the computer screen. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Are you saying a 318 WR isn't going to kill the buffalo? | |||
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Am I the only one who has noticed that nearly all cases of "So there I was, down to my last round. The buffalo refused to die." involve bigbores? How often have you heard this type of story when a 375 or other medium bore was used? Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Saeed, You are just trying to pick a fight! I have personally seen .318 WR bullets bounce off buffalo. You can throw in souped up .375 H&H bullets too. If I had to choose between a 404/375 and a pocket knife, I'll take the knife. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I have personally shot several buffalo with a .318 Westley Richards. The rifle was a Zim national parks issue gun at Matetsi HQ in the mid 80's. I never had to use it in any kind of tight situation because every time I shot a buffalo with it the buffalo died one time. I often wonder what happened to that rifle - sweet son of a gun. Like Aaron and others I am not a ballistics expert at all but from a practical point of view that long bullet makes the .318 WR perform (ON GAME) way above what it's calibre may lead you to expect. Just my $00.10, but practical truth. | |||
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By Will:
Please tell me you are either joking or you have been drinking this afternoon. or Please tell me about this incident in detail. I would love to know about your first hand observations and bouncing off a boss or horn from an extreme acute angle doesn't count Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?[/] [i] Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I happen to own a .318 and although I haven't shot a buffalo with mine yet, I find it extremely hard to believe that a 250-grain Woodleigh soft or solid from it would "bounce" off anything! No offense, Will, but no way, Jose! | |||
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Just trying to rattle Saeed's chain! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I have always thought a 338 WM would be fine for buffalo. Although it is illegal and really got slammed on this forum for thinking such nonsense. But being a "traditional"round with similar capability (318WR) makes it OK. I believe there are some squirrels running around in cages on this forum. LOL | |||
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You wouldn't catch me even thinking about a 318 WR for buff. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Bad shooters always try to make up for their lack of accuracy with bigger calibers  | |||
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My late father owned an original Westley 318 and with that little rifle downed many any elephant and buffalo - granted it may not be classified and even possibly qualified to rank as a stopper, nor does it fall within the legally prescribed calibers for DG but it does the job without a problem on a first shot, similarly so for umpteen others in the 8mm class. I too have used that same 318 on elephant when my 375 Mod.70 developed ejecting problems - did a few frontal shots as well - I'm still here and they're in the elephant cemetery. Yes, it could be called "pushing one's luck" but when we were younger did we not push our luck once too often and get away with it? Reason why I tote a 500NE in my old age  | |||
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Have own chain. No need of anybody else's. Have own .318 as well. No need to consult anybody's "energy charts" for reason to shoot big animals with my .318 (Will's "bouncing bullets" notwithstanding) . Living in Africa does make it possible for me to perform one or two practical experiments from time to time, though. "Dear William, Buy a .318 of your own, two or three boxes of Mr Geoff MacDonalds` finest, and we'll talk again. Then get back to me about the age-old "bouncing" problem. Yours faithfully, JvW" | |||
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You are well know for saying some stupid stuff, but I still can't believe you had them believing that you were serious. I would have thought your choice of the pocket knife instead of a 375 would have been a dead giveaway.
There are a lot of people on this forum whose bore is bigger than their brain....
Even if you had a chance to hunt buffalo for free, the stipulation being that you had to use a 318? I am going to shoot a buffalo with a 30-06 as soon as ISS comes through on his promise to subsidize the hunt.  Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Resurrecting a thread here. The HITS formula doesn't appear to take bullet diameter/frontal area into account. Sectional density/penetration is important, but what about the diameter/frontal area. Do you guys think that is a significant consideration? The Hits chart lists the 458 Lott notably superior to the 470 NE and only a few points shy of the 500 NE. It also lists the 458 Win Mag ahead of the 470 NE in terminal effect even though the 470 is firing a 500 gr. bullet at 2150 fps.and the 458 Winmag at 2140. The chart actually lists a lower muzzle energy for the winmag.  Any thoughts on importance of bore size in killing game? NRA Endowment Member | |||
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Will, You friggin crack me up dude. That was classic! | |||
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Since they are illegal to take Buff/DG, why are we having this dicussion....oh yeah....some of your grandpas were even older than I am... | |||
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The HITS was probably dreamed up by some college dropout, who has probably never seen a Cape buffalo much less shot one. Saint John Taylor did it all and no one will ever prove otherwise. Every aspiring ballistician apparently thinks they can make a name for themselves by coming up with alternative, and better no doubt, ballistic magic numbers to Taylor's Knock Out values. They're friggin delusional! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Tom, my question isn't tied to cape buffalo or other dangerous game. With any animal (plains game?), is bullet diameter a significant variable in similar bullet weights? In killing power/knockdown, is a 35 Whelen superior to a 30-06 in comparable bullet weights? Is a 470 NE superior to a 458 winmag? Just wondered what others thought. I've always subscribed to a bigger hole is better but I have no scientific basis for that opinion. I do think heavier bullets hit harder. But at comparable weights and construction.....I dunno. NRA Endowment Member | |||
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In my walk of life (equine veterinarian) that is all it stands for. BTW...have friend who shot her one and only buff with a .308 Win. 1 shot 30 yds. flop. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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[quote]Am I the only one who has noticed that nearly all cases of "So there I was, down to my last round. The buffalo refused to die." involve bigbores? How often have you heard this type of story when a 375 or other medium bore was used? Perhaps they're no longer around to comment!!! :-) | |||
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There was a story some years back of a cassock clad, sandal shod monk from a mission school, who "shot" buffalo for meat rations. He used a .303 Br and 174 gr FMJs. One shot kills only. He would "stalk" his animal, when close enough, he would break a little twig, the buff would lift his head, give his "you owe me money" look, and the monk would shoot the animal on the nose and into the brain. No fuss, no stress. | |||
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