https://www.news24.com/Green/N...ion-hunting-20171207



New industry body formed after outcry over captive-bred lion hunting

2017-12-07 20:33


Simon Bloch, Correspondent

Johannesburg – A new association representing the interests of professional hunters, opposed to hunting captive-bred lions, has been formed in South Africa.

Former Professional Hunters' Association of South Africa (Phasa) president Stewart Dorrington was elected as the body's first chairperson.

Dorrington told News24 the mandate of the Custodians of Professional Hunting and Conservation South Africa (CPHCSA) was to "promote only ethical and responsible conservation-based hunting principles, such as hunting only under fair chase conditions".



The formation of the new body followed an urgent meeting in Johannesburg on Wednesday, attended by some of the top guns in South African hunting circles.

It comes less than two weeks after constitutional and policy changes of Phasa sent shock waves throughout the industry.

At its annual general meeting Phasa members voted to reverse the body's 2015 resolution and policy, which opposed promoting the hunting of captive-raised lions.

Following the decision, Phasa members, including seven past presidents, resigned en masse, with sponsors and internationally-recognised hunting organisations voicing their strong disapproval.

Several affiliate hunting bodies, including the Operators and Professional Hunting Associations of South Africa, the Namibia Professional Hunting Association, Boone and Crockett Club, and the Nordic Safari Club, immediately stripped Phasa of its membership status on the continent and abroad.

There had also been a growing number of outfitters and professional hunters who have brought the South African hunting industry into disrepute.

"The decision to form the CPHCSA was necessitated by Phasa's unpopular decision last month. Fellow neighbouring countries' associations, sponsors and many Phasa members voiced their disgust and condemnation of this inexplicable action," Dorrington said.

"The launch of CPHCSA breathes new life into professional hunting and conservation, and we aim to restore the integrity of the vast majority of South African professional hunters," he added.

I think this is wonderful news, but wish they had chosen a name that makes for a simpler acronym.

The more the merrier I suppose. Will make the Christmas parties more tolerable with probably fewer beatdowns.

All we need two separate hunting organizations opposed to each other.

Now you know what I have been saying.

The antis ARE winning, and WE ARE letting them win!

And have you noticed Saeed, No One is listening to you.

It is not the anti-hunters that are going to end hunting, it will be hunters incapable of uniting that will end hunting.

Us hunters have caught that very sick modern ailment.

Complain about anything anyone else does that you do not do, and campaign against it.

Now that we have started, I just wonder what will be next on the agenda to stop from hunting.

Hopefully this will draw Peter Flack back!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Us hunters have caught that very sick modern ailment.

Complain about anything anyone else does that you do not do, and campaign against it.

Gun owners have the same problem in the United States, if it does not directly effect them they’re ok with taking away others guns. A sad and disturbing problem we have.

The slippery slope this organization is treading on will be interesting to watch.

Can they successfully thread the needle between the whole canned/captive bred Lion thing and put and take hunting.

Will be interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Us hunters have caught that very sick modern ailment.

Complain about anything anyone else does that you do not do, and campaign against it.

Now that we have started, I just wonder what will be next on the agenda to stop from hunting.

Like Mark Sullivan's hunting methods????

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
The slippery slope this organization is treading on will be interesting to watch.

Can they successfully thread the needle between the whole canned/captive bred Lion thing and put and take hunting.

Will be interesting.

You pose a very valid question. Unfortunately the answer is an emphatic "No! They cannot and will not."

PHASA crawls around looking for the "OK" from known anti-hunting organisations and in the process looses a lot of members, including a few of their past presidents. I do hope that these past presidents get to quickly realize that the shooting of captive bred lions soon after delivery to a "killing farm" is really no different from shooting a recently delivered "Put & Take" trophy! They have all (or certainly most of them) accepted the Put & Take shooting as part of what hunting is in South Africa and condoned the practice - which is clearly in conflict with the PHASA Code of Practice.

Now we as Hunting Outfitters have (that I now know of) three choices of a "professional home" organisation: (i) PHASA, with a long history of doing nothing to discourage Put & Take hunting by their members, (ii) Custodians of Professional Hunting and Conservation South Africa (CPHCSA) with Steward Dorrington, a past president of PHASA at the helm (?????) (iii) Then there is South African Movement for the Promotion of Ethical Outfitters (SAMPEO). I cannot wait to see how these compete for the blessings of the anti-hunting organisations! In particular I await the announcing that the qualification for membership requirements of one of these includes NOT being a member of one of the anothers.

Another interesting fight to watch will be to see what those province(s), like the Northern Cape, which legally requires any hunting outfitter to be a member of PHASA will do. Fortunately for me personally, here in the Free State province in which I operate there is no regulatory requirement for a Professional Hunter to belong to PHASA - so if I wish to I can continue to act as a Hunting Outfitter without being a member of PHASA.

The fight for CPHCSA and SAMPEO, and naturally also for any other new organisation wishing to represent a 'professional home' for the hunting outfitters in South Africa, will be a hard and uphill battle, particularly as PHASA is at present the only recognized Professional Hunters that is recognised by the South African government.

I intend watching the developments and the fights from the sideline and hope to see one of the real ethical sides really make headway in my years long fight, which was initially fought from inside PHASA, but later from outside agianst the Put & Take Hunting Outfitters operating in our South Affrican trophy hunting industry. Jippee! I'm living in interesting times!

I’m looking for Custodians of Professional Hunting and Conservation South Africa (CPHCSA)’s contact details. Are they available yet?

Seems pretty simple to me.

Stop allowing businesses such as captive lion shooting to be described as "Hunting".
BY definition, it is not.

Shoot your canned cat, just don't call it Hunting.

Saeed, you seemed to understand this logic last year. Why wear the old leaf again?

Very sad indeed that this is all happening just because hunters shooters what ever we are cant agree...everybody have a few skeletons in the closet and some of these "custodians" have plenty.....what gets me and this is where I agree with Saeed is the hypocrisy that goes along with all of this... its 100% OK to sit over a waterhole and shoot something or put feed out in front of a blind and shoot what ever you are trying to shoot but please don't shoot a captive bred lion that is A big NONO!

quote:

Originally posted by walking buffalo:
Seems pretty simple to me.

Stop allowing businesses such as captive lion shooting to be described as "Hunting".
BY definition, it is not.

Shoot your canned cat, just don't call it Hunting.

Saeed, you seemed to understand this logic last year. Why wear the old leaf again?

If we are going to go down this road, how much of the farm hunts in South Africa can honestly be called hunting?

I see nothing wrong with hunting on a farm in South Africa. One knows exactly what he is getting before hand.

But, in stretch of any imagination can it be compared to hunting in the wilds of say Zimbabwe or Tanzania and other countries.

By the way, I have never said I am against captive lion hunting.

one more thing that... there is plenty of Ranches in Namibia Zimbabwe Zambia Mozambique Botswana. Ranch hunts will increase not decrease that is the reality people are getting more and more on this earth with less open wild spaces. Many of these big hunting blocks witch I LOVE are over run with locals and poaching and netting in the rivers are getting out of hand.

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Very sad indeed that this is all happening just because hunters shooters what ever we are cant agree...everybody have a few skeletons in the closet and some of these "custodians" have plenty.....what gets me and this is where I agree with Saeed is the hypocrisy that goes along with all of this... its 100% OK to sit over a waterhole and shoot something or put feed out in front of a blind and shoot what ever you are trying to shoot but please don't shoot a captive bred lion that is A big NONO!

If you cannot see a distinction between taking an animal that was raised in a pen, turning that animal loose for a few hours or days before someone goes in and kills that specific animal for their trophy room and hunting an animal that has been allowed to range freely for months or years (that perhaps was born on that ranch from parents that were released and allowed to breed and roam) on a fenced ranch that is thousands of acres, that is in fact is what is very sad. Forget about lion, assuming the concept of "put and take" means releasing an animal into a relatively small area and then pursuing that specific animal within a short time of its release . . . that may be many things but it is not hunting and to call it such demeans hunting.

Mjines Now we are getting to the point I am trying to make everybody is up in arms about lion but nobody seems to care when PEN RAISED New Zeealnd stag gets shot or these freaky whitetails or raised quail or raised anything thing for that matter but when it comes to lions Everybody stops just short of A heart attack!

This is not my quote but it says allot. "Never has so many been mislead by so few through the hypocrisy of a joint objective, the survival of trophy hunting for our youth. The day we made a ranched lion more important than A ranched whitetail or ranched Stag, that day we handed the sword to our enemy, think very hard if you are against all hunting or just certain forms of hunting.

One thing that is for sure is that the practice of captive bred hunting is being used against hunters by the antis.People who don't hunt but eat meat hate hunters.People who don't hunt and don't eat meat(so they say)hate everybody including themselves.Most people who hunt but don't hunt Africa hate those who hunt Africa.Many hunters who hunt wild animals hate those that hunt captive bred animals.Hunters I talked to here in Quebec feel that it's OK to hunt bear but not leopard from Africa.There is so much hate and jealousy in the world that it is incredible.Some so called hunters who post on the African hunting forum hate guns and hunters even if they hunt and own rifles.I am sure these assholes will celebrate if the day comes that we can no longer hunt or own guns.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Very sad indeed that this is all happening just because hunters shooters what ever we are cant agree...everybody have a few skeletons in the closet and some of these "custodians" have plenty.....what gets me and this is where I agree with Saeed is the hypocrisy that goes along with all of this... its 100% OK to sit over a waterhole and shoot something or put feed out in front of a blind and shoot what ever you are trying to shoot but please don't shoot a captive bred lion that is A big NONO!

If you cannot see a distinction between taking an animal that was raised in a pen, turning that animal loose for a few hours or days before someone goes in and kills that specific animal for their trophy room and hunting an animal that has been allowed to range freely for months or years (that perhaps was born on that ranch from parents that were released and allowed to breed and roam) on a fenced ranch that is thousands of acres, that is in fact is what is very sad. Forget about lion, assuming the concept of "put and take" means releasing an animal into a relatively small area and then pursuing that specific animal within a short time of its release . . . that may be many things but it is not hunting and to call it such demeans hunting.

Mike,

I know difference, but my point is why is it anyone’s business telling others if that is the way they want to spend their time in bush?

quote:

I know difference, but my point is why is it anyone’s business telling others if that is the way they want to spend their time in bush?

That is one point, but another point that so many seem totally unable to conceptualize is that were there not "Hunters" out there ready and willing to go to such places and "hunt" the businesses/market would not exist.

All anyone has to do is look at the "Canned Hunt Industry" in North America.

People have changed in the way they think concerning such things, going and doing something in a week or less and returning to their "Normal" life that would, if done as it has been done in the past, taken 3 weeks or a month or more out of their busy lives, they will go with the instant gratification and display their trophy with pride.

Did not mean to butt in, since I have no experience hunting in Africa, however I am familiar with what happens here in America.

My boss has a group from Detroit that have been coming down to this area annually for the past 8 years or so to hunt Free Range/Low Fence whitetails.

They also annually go to the "Sanctuary" a high fence hunting operation and spend 5 to 10 K to shoot a 180 to 200+ white tail buck. The place even has an app on the phone with the pictures and prices of the bucks that are available listed.

Too many folks are no longer interested in the experience, just the "Bragging Rights", it is the exact same thing with the canned " Lion Hunts"!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Did not mean to butt in, since I have no experience hunting in Africa, however I am familiar with what happens here in America.

My boss has a group from Detroit that have been coming down to this area annually for the past 8 years or so to hunt Free Range/Low Fence whitetails.

They also annually go to the "Sanctuary" a high fence hunting operation and spend 5 to 10 K to shoot a 180 to 200+ white tail buck. The place even has an app on the phone with the pictures and prices of the bucks that are available listed.

Too many folks are no longer interested in the experience, just the "Bragging Rights", it is the exact same thing with the canned " Lion Hunts"!

The high-fence places are nauseating. This type of operation also presents a problem with CWD, but also, it plays into to the worst of hunters (my words), that killing things, then quantifying them via a manufactured standard increases one's status. All should be rebuked.

quote:

The high-fence places are nauseating. This type of operation also presents a problem with CWD, but also, it plays into to the worst of hunters (my words), that killing things, then quantifying them via a manufactured standard increases one's status. All should be rebuked.

I do not disagree, but facts are facts, and if the demand was not present, such places would not exist.

I do not know about anyone else on this site, but I started hunting in 1967, killed my first whitetail buck in 1970, and while I have not hunted Africa I have watched hunting go from where ANY buck deer was a Trophy to the point where only certain B&C scored bucks are trophies and people are openly willing to pay to shoot such animals, that are basically nothing more than Livestock.

The same thing is happening in Africa with lions and other species, simply because many modern hunters want the instant gratification but do not want to spend the time it takes to actually kill a "Free Range" trophy. Their lives are too busy and spending three weeks or so in a tent camp simply does not fit their schedule, especially when there is a legitimate chance of NOT being successful.

quote:

The same thing is happening in Africa with lions and other species, simply because many modern hunters want the instant gratification but do not want to spend the time it takes to actually kill a "Free Range" trophy. Their lives are too busy and spending three weeks or so in a tent camp simply does not fit their schedule, especially when there is a legitimate chance of NOT being successful.

These are the bare facts and naked truth AND confirmation that the people who choose to go on these "hunts" are not really hunters but collectors where the term Fair Chase does not exist in their vocabulary.

Shooting one or more cats in a 5 day time span (inclusive of travel time) is a sick joke.
I say one or more because I have seen several video clips of several "hunters" within a group each kill a Lion on a daily basis over 3 days.

Fair Chase my ass.

It is a sad statement/commentary on what has happened to hunting and hunters.

Problem is, I do not feel things will get any better. Humans, including some or all that consider themselves hunters have allowed themselves to buy into or fall into the trap of making everything a competition.

Just look at the various "Record Keeping" organizations. So far as I know there are no records kept for "Most Unsuccessful Hunts" or how times a hunter ate "Tag Soup" because they did not connect with whatever they had a "tag" or license for.

With society becoming more and more geared up to everyone needing to be a "Winner" to get any recognition, shortcuts to achieving success/instant gratification were inevitable.

We were having drinks one day in Vegas with a couple of PHs from SA and they said that us Zim guys have no business brains. They said that we sell a 21 day lion hunt at $65000 and client only has 60% chance of getting it and on average we sell about 2 per area per yr whereas in equivalent of 21 days they can sell 5 lion hunts at approx $15000 per lion or less and can sell as many as they want or can in a yr and client is 99.99% successful. I have no idea if that's actually true but I did get a gd chuckle out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Thierry Labat:
We were having drinks one day in Vegas with a couple of PHs from SA and they said that us Zim guys have no business brains. They said that we sell a 21 day lion hunt at $65000 and client only has 60% chance of getting it and on average we sell about 2 per area per yr whereas in equivalent of 21 days they can sell 5 lion hunts at approx $15000 per lion or less and can sell as many as they want or can in a yr and client is 99.99% successful. I have no idea if that's actually true but I did get a gd chuckle out of it.

One of the reasons why a lot of hunters don't want to hunt in South Africa anymore.

EMBRACING RESPONSIBILITY

“The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but building the new.” – Socrates

As the Professional Hunters’ Association of South Africa (PHASA), it is our custodial duty to embrace the responsibility of all forms of hunting and set an unprecedented standard of responsible hunting, for the future benefit of the South African bio-diversity economy, our communities and our members. PHASA is stepping into a new era of membership accountability and responsibility. It is encouraging and reassuring to know that despite various differences of opinions and standpoints, that the focus and energy of the entire current Executive Committee (EXCO) is being channelled through a collective voice of positivity and mutual respect. For the first time in many years PHASA has a united EXCO, which is determined to serve all members of PHASA and build the hunting industry in accordance with the South African Biodiversity Economy.

The Constitutional changes made at our 40th Annual General Meeting (AGM) allows PHASA to embrace our responsibility as a truly democratic Association of professional hunters. It is unfortunate that there are those who view this positive change in a negative manner and have acted accordingly. PHASA is a membership driven Association for all professional hunters’ and has a sovereign duty to be accountable to the entire membership. The members of the Association through a democratic 79% vote, adopted a new Constitution that is aligned with the current Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. As one of the leading professional hunting association in the world, we need to take responsibility for our industry and provide guidance in the development of rules, regulations and standards within all segments of the industry. PHASA cannot merely distance itself from various stakeholders and activities occurring within the industry and expect to be in a position of influence.

PHASA is embracing its responsibility as tasked by the Minister of Environmental Affairs, Mrs Edna Molewa, who published in the Biodiversity Management Plan (BMP) for the Lion (Panthera Leo) in South Africa, under the National Environmental Management: Biodiversity Act, 2004 (Act No. 10 Of 2004); That PHASA must “Assess the management of the captive lion population.” As Gazetted by law.

The vision of the South African BMP for the Lion population is that:
Through the existence of stable, viable and ecologically functional populations of wild and managed wild lions, along with well-managed captive populations that have minimal negative conservation impacts, lions will provide key opportunities for biodiversity conservation, economic development, social benefits and improved management capacity.

PHASA supports the Minister and are embracing their custodial responsibility as tasked by the Minister, to find amicable solutions and ascertain the key objectives of the BMP, namely:

1) To improve the conservation status of lions within a broader conservation context, considering the respective role of wild, managed wild and captive populations; and
2) Encourage the development of opportunities for economic and social benefits from responsibly managed wild, managed wild and captive lion populations.

Despite a democratic decision and transparent voting process, it is regrettable that 5% of PHASA members resigned as a result of inter alia disingenuous media statements by individuals and certain Hunting Associations. PHASA would like to set the record straight by separating facts from fiction:
PHASA vehemently rejects any and all forms of canned or illegal hunting.
The PHASA Constitution was not replaced to facilitate the hunting of captive bred lions in South Africa.
- Despite the 2015 Resolution “to distance from captive bred lions” the hunting of captive bred lion continued during 2015, 2016 & 2017.
- The 2015 Resolution was flawed in that no disciplinary action could be taken under the previous PHASA constitution, as shown in the High Court action of 2016.
- The 2015 resolution placed PHASA in a position where by it was unable to influence or prescribe any codes of conduct or norms and standards for the hunting of captive bred lions.
The PHASA Constitution was changed to facilitate higher standards of good governance and administration of the Association in accordance with the Constitution of South Africa.
The claim that PHASA has turned its back on “Ethical” practices such as fair chase to adopt lower “Legal” standards is unfounded.
- “Fair Chase” & “Ethical Conduct” are legal requirements for all hunting organisations in South Africa under the National Environmental Management Act, 2004.
South Africa’s National legal requirement for the hunting of predators is of a higher standard than the ethics of most other African or International Hunting Associations. South Africa’s Threatened or Protected Species (TOPS) regulations stipulate that no large predator may be hunted, from or with the use of a:
- motorized vehicle, aircraft, bow, handgun or semi-automatic firearm, artificial lights, dogs, bait, poison, traps & snares luring with sounds or smell.
Under the previous PHASA Constitution, the 2015 Resolution was fatally flawed, it could not be enforced and was inconsequential. Considering the new constitution and 2017 Resolution, PHASA is now in a far SUPERIOR position to apply stricter hunting regulations on ranched lions and can now legally pursue disciplinary action against members who contravene the Resolution.
PHASA acknowledges the different views of fellow Hunting Associations and the industry at large regarding these sensitive and emotional topics and welcomes any direct engagement with the PHASA office or the EXCO for further discussion.

PHASA is aware of the founding of the Custodians of Professional Hunting and Conservation South Africa (CPHCSA) and the speculation that I, the PHASA president, intend to resign and join CPHCSA. I hereby confirm that I will not be resigning and confirm that I will complete my term as president. Having stated the above, I on behalf of PHASA would like to take this opportunity to wish CPHCSA well in their future endeavours and assure CPHCSA that PHASA will always be available as a foundation of support or assistance should they so require.

PHASA will always be an Association for all professional hunters in South Africa and despite the personal views of many will support and facilitate a process and environment where all professional hunters are welcome.

Dries van Coller
PHASA president

Thierry Labat, hope you are well made.... I would not read to much into anything being said around a bar in Las Vegas...hell especially after 10...

quote:

I would not read to much into anything being said around a bar in Las Vegas...hell especially after 10...

"In Vino Veritas" ....

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Thierry Labat, hope you are well made.... I would not read to much into anything being said around a bar in Las Vegas...hell especially after 10...

you are probably correct...

Ethically, I agree with all who post here on the problems with canned lion hunts. I see virtually no difference between a canned lion hunt and shooting a deer over a feeder that is behind a high fence. The deer are conditioned to come to the feeder to eat. Again, where is the ethical outcry on that?

I don't get it.

If shooting a deer behind a fence over a feeder from a box blind is "OK", then I really could care less about the ethics of shooting pen raised lions or guinea pigs or kick and shoot quail hunts....

If this is your biggest concern - lions out of a pen - what about the various places in RSA or Namibia that buy, then release game on the ranches to be hunted. Where do I draw the line?

It all goes to the heart as to "fair chase".

If it is not fair chase, it is canned.

There are bigger fights out there folks.....

quote:

Originally posted by Thierry Labat:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Thierry Labat, hope you are well made.... I would not read to much into anything being said around a bar in Las Vegas...hell especially after 10...

you are probably correct...

Thierry,
They are right. I have hunted RSA and the guy I hunted with switched from plains game to pen raised lions. He said he made more money on a few lions than all of the plains game hunts combined.

Free range hunting in the US is hard to make money on these days - hence so many "game or dude ranches" that offer hunting. These are usually fenced and have an enhanced feeding scheme to keep the deer/elk/hefalumps fat and happy.

Check out Oak Creek Ranch or The Sanctuary - big deer high fence operations. They tout the "family values" or "the old time fellowship of the hunt". Bull! These are serious commercial operations that SELL their deer hunts by the inch to people who want INCHES. Is it illegal? No. Is it ethical? No. Is it ok by the SCI and other groups? Yes. They list the "trophies" in their books.

If we much commercialize hunting to this extent, then this will be the end result - canned, sale of inches, sale of custom bred colors, whatever.

In my experience in Africa, outside of RSA and some select places - canned hunting is not the norm - as it is in much of the USA. When we have an entire industry directed at creating "food plots" (bait stations) and supplements to increase antler production (for the inch buyers) - and "managing the deer" so they are "shooters" vs "cull" - I grow weary of it all.

It makes me sick.

Honestly, if it is legal and someone wants to shoot a lion/tiger/arrdvark that is ranched and anesthetized I could care less.

I eat beef/pork/poultry that is treated that way to make sure it is “ethical” for consumption.

I agree it’s not hunting.

Where put and take or captive reared yet still meets free chase is a definition I am unable to determine. I know that the closest I did to this was a rhino yet that one the individual animal had a reasonable chance as far as rhino go to avoid being shot and that the beast had lived there his whole life.

I’d hardly call it free range, but fair chase? I thought so.

If a lion has been living on a property feeding itself by killing its own fair chase style prey for a period of time (how long? Dunno) it’s likely to be a reasonable hunt.

How many of us have shot birds on a game farm?

How about South Dakota (they supplement with released birds even on public land in places)?

I agree that shooting an Unacclimated animal is butchery. It’s not hunting. They should not be imported using the hunting laws.... but it should remain legal as long as we allow farming and ranching.

To me, that is the argument, not is it hunting.

It is a very, very fine hair that folks are attempting to split; not that the anits care either way.

[quote It is a very, very fine hair that folks are attempting to split; not that the anits care either way. [/quote]

Thank You! The ANTI's Do Not Care, they want ALL hunting stopped, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!

United we stand, divided we fall. Ron Thomson's thoughts will be interesting.

Agree, but if we unite for poorly thought out ethics or message, we all fall.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Agree, but if we unite for poorly thought out ethics or message, we all fall.

I think we should unite to stand a chance against the opposition.

We have hunted South Africa twice, and enjoyed it.

We knew what it was before we started, so there were no surprises.

It does not compare with hunting in the wild, but it is still better than nothing.

Which is what we will end up if we continue supporting the antis.