One of the subjects brought up in the Ray,PVT, sheephunter thread, makes me wonder about something. The Safari business has to be the only industry where the person who is selling a product is wined and dined or "smoosed" you might say by the person who is buying the product. It's always amazed me how hunters will put these PH's up on a pedestal like they do. They come over here to the States and we give them free room and board, put on parties to sell their hunts at no charge, wine and dine them and then write them a check when they leave. They are very good at what they do, basically, tracking, spotting game, working on their trucks and telling the natives what to do, and we obviously couldn't do a safari without them. But isn't it the same with all professions? Many posters have come back saying they have made a "friend for life" and they just shower these PH's with gifts, money, guns etc.. I would like to ask, did your PH ever offer to buy dinner, or stay at his house at no cost, what kind of gifts did you get for spending $25,000 with him or did he ever offer to buy you dinner when he visits your home? I wonder how close of a friend they would be if the money stopped. I am not saying that any of this is wrong,I realize that's the way the safari industry works, I'm just wondering why do we do this?

Jerry, I hear you!

Actually, a lot of PHs come over here, set up a base of operations in client's homes, conduct business over the phone selling hunts (with the client footing the phone bill), and otherwise freeload until it's time to go home.

I guess the must clients feel as though if they wine, dine, entertain, finance, and blow enough kisses at the PH they'll somehow be rewarded with extra-big trophies the next time around, or else the PH will finally state to one an all that the host was the best shot and best hunter he ever had out on safari!

AD

I have always assumed that this was done in an effort to develop a relationship with the PH or safari company and possibly to receive some reciprocation on future trips. I would guess that some individuals enjoy introducing their PH around to their friends while they are in town, and others who truly see the guy they hunted with as their buddy, and enjoy their company. It always seemed to me to be pretty much a one sided deal, although I am sure some will relate some stories that show it works both ways.

Jery

Right on. I raised the same question a couple of weeks ago and got an earful from the 'He's my friend for Life 'crowd. If most of the clients had any idea of what the PH actually thought of them or told his friends later they woud shoot the PH.

As long as you have money your my buddy, that's for sure.

I am as guilty as the next for doing the same thing! We all have, haven't we?

Claude and Jill Kleynhans did offer my daughter to stay with them for a month if she wanted to come over. For free. This was an unsolicited offer by them.

quote:

I would like to ask, did your PH ever offer to buy dinner, or stay at his house at no cost,

Just this last summer I stayed at my PHs house, drinking and eating for several days, and also spent several days with his soon to be parents-in-law. All at his expense. But then of course, these expenses were paid by my daily rates etc anyway.

Doing the above did make the whole hunt feel more personal though, and I would have no problem if he and his wife in return wanted to come and stay with us some day. Which I have offered. We keep an pretty open house anyway for lots of people we've met. We think of this as a kind of returning the favor for all the hospitality we encountered from people in many African countries, who opened their homes to us. Often when we were total strangers that just met them by chance.

On the otherhand, I do see that some PHs might abuse ones hospitality, and if that is the case, I would suggest they find someone else to scrounge off!

quote:

Why do we do this?

Because we like it that way.....is there another answer?

I can only speak for the ph whom I have hunted with on two occassions in Zim. On both trips he has allowed my wife and I to stay in his home, take us to dinner and take me bird shooting near town. Both befroe and after a hunt. I didn't get that with the guide service in Alaska or the short hunting side trip we took to RSA. On the three occassions that he has come to stay with me he has brought us gifts fromt he SCI show. On each stay he has taken us to dinner and we have done the same for him. Since first meeting him in 2001. he has corresponded with me by e-mail and by satelite phone from Tanzania. Most time calling just to see how we are keeping.
I realized that he is in the hunting business and will accept a hunt with me anytime. but I believe we are frinds and consider him such.

I´ve twice stayed with my PH Tino Erasmus for extended periods -hunted a week but stayed on for five weeks in order to write, relax etc. I´ve also met most of his family, was invited to his wedding etc. I´ve paid a ridiculously small amount of money for a Rondavel and for full board -and only because I insisted.

I´ve never been able to give big tips or presents.

Still I´m always welcome back for any period of time, hunt or no hunt.

He´s never visited my house though he has a standing invitation.

We see each other as friends.

Go figure.

If anyone wants to read some stories about freeloading PHs, refer to Cotton Gordon's great book, 'Bwana Cotton', in the chapter entitled "Some Thoughts on Professional Hunters", pages 43 thru 46!

AD

Gentlemen,

I am afraid I look at this from a different prospective.

What I do for my PH is no different to what I would do to any of my friends.

I do it because I want to do it, and I enjoy doing it.

I honestly cannot put any financial value on what I get from them.

We travel first class, we stay in 5-star hotels. And not a single one of these comes even close to the "being at home with close friends" feeling we get in a hunting camp.

That, my friends, to me at least, is priceless!

And from the reaction of all my friends who go hunting with me, they feel exactly teh same way.

I only have one PH that I have hunted with and I like him. He worked hard for me and was good company.

I sell for a living and entertain quite a bit. Most of the people that I spend money on never offer to share the cost. When the check comes all eyes turn away. That is fine and part of the relationship, we all understand why we are at dinner. But, every now and then a client does something very nice and unexpected for me. I always appreciate such gestures because they didn't have to do it. They are thanking me because of what I do for them. Same with me and my PH.

Doug

I started a thread like this three years ago and got bashed about quite harshly. Are times changing or what.

Nothing wrong with being a gracious host. I do it because I enjoy it much as Saeed and others have said. Very rarely is my hospitality abused and normally repaid many times over. Maybe it is because there is no expectations of anything in return. All I know is I enjoy the company and have had many people open their homes to me when abroad. I wont let those who would abuse my good nature ruin it for me. I am not naive enough to believe that everyone is your friend for life or dosnt have other motives. I however dont want to become so cynical to shut out all the potential friends I havent made yet.

I am sure there are many PH's that would complain about me to no end!

But on the other hand PH's have to accept whatever they are dealt, in many cases whining, sniveling, sniping, complaining weasels that can't shoot and would be forever bitching about everything if they killed the SCI number one something or another. And blame the rifle, the food, the booking agent, etc., for an "unsuccessful " successful hunt.

Most of the PH's are dedicated hunters that are much admired for their desire, skills, and lifestyle by me and most others.

There is a certain amount of jealousy of PH's I suspect, which is why they are always getting cheap shots here.

PH's have to be businessmen, babysitters, nursemaids, competent hunters, skilled drivers, faultless negotiators, tactful hosts, and possess a myriad of other flawless personality charcteristics for which they usually get paid poorly.

All this whining reminds me of the guy at the co-op yesterday complaining about the high cost of peanuts while he is stuffing his pants pockets with free ones out of the barrel. I would have shot the old bastard myself, but ....

Hey, if you don't want to play, stay home.

Why do we do this? To quote the apocryphal Native American, "Who's 'we' white man?"

I do what I do because I want to and can.

Why anyone else does what he does I won't even speculate.

quote:

I started a thread like this three years ago and got bashed about quite harshly. Are times changing or what.

square shooter

No change in the times. We just got together and decided to screw with you

LD

Hunting with another is a primeval thing, something that is in the genes and harks back to Mammoths and the like. It is a thing men do (some women ). Mates hunt together. Hunting is a little like war, it brings together men not bound by blood ties.

However in a modern safari, someone has his hand out at the end for cash, his income.

I too like to be friendly and a good host. I do hope some of the PHs I have hunted are friends, but in any case when I pay for a safari I am paying for a hunt. But don't need to pay anyone for friendship.

I have stayed with a PH friend and also hunted basically for cost. I would do the same if that PH visited me.

I question eludes me. Do you have to "tip" a friend for services he provides?

saeed has said it perfectly, forget the money for a change and treat him as a true friend . You have experienced a special time with the PH and although you payed for the service, you feel you got more than your moneys worth. Offrering you own hospitality in your home is the least you could do to have the PH's company around, just to share a few more stories and relive you safari with the person who shared the adventure with you in the fist place.

quote:

I question eludes me. Do you have to "tip" a friend for services he provides?

You try; he refuses. Then you give him something he really needs, or money for his kid(s) education fund. Simple.

I don't know a whole lot of PH's but the couple I know have done personal favors for me. They know it's a reciprocal thing and I will do favors for them if I can. Too bad too many Americans take an accountant's viewpoint of relationships.

I don't think anyone objects to or doesn't enjoy being a good host, but a guest who turns into a freeloader and a slob is something else again. If you doubt this happens, again, refer to Cotton Gordon's book.

I had a non-American PH call and ask me to help finance a business deal he was working on here in the states with an American client who he was also partnering with, at least according to what he said. For a whole lot of reasons, I didn't think any such involvement was prudent, nor did I have any interest or desire to participate in some such venture. I told him as much, and that brought an end to the cheery phone calls, e-mails, and warm brotherly love........

AD

Bill,
I can't figure out what your post could possibly have to do with the question. I didn't whine about anything, I asked a simple question to get some opinions from hunters who have been to Africa. I never fails, someone has to come on a thread and start calling names and being a jerk.

If you want to see if your PH is your good friend count the phone calls you get without calling first or the emails you get without emailing first.
PS calls or emails about discounted hunts dont count.
Dean

I have hunted with the same PH for many years. I have stayed at his house and have eaten his food (not on the clock). When he is here in the States he stays at my house and eats my food. I do arrange the casual meet & greet for him and he has booked a few hunts from these efforts. In return, I have hunted for free in Africa, been on several culling hunts, received reduced daily rates, and receive the first shot at end of season hunts for dangerous game. I have never bothered to add up all the perks I have received from our relationship, but I would imagine that I have come out way ahead in the deal.

I have not hunted in Africa for several years, but I continue to welcome my friend from Africa to my house every time he is here. I am also confident that I would be readily welcomed into his house if I was passing through his town.

If you do not have this type of relationship with your PH then I would suggest that you either find another or stop extending the offer to put him up and stop introducing him to your friends...

I've had a several PH's & N.A. Guides stay with us. It's always been a pleasure to welcome them as our houseguests. On the other side, I've stayed in their homes as well as their guests. I've never even given a thought to charges either way.

quote:

Originally posted by tonto:
If you want to see if your PH is your good friend count the phone calls you get without calling first or the emails you get without emailing first.
PS calls or emails about discounted hunts dont count.
Dean

Better yet, tell him you lost your job and won't be able to afford any hunts for quite a while if ever.

Most PH's are good guys, but they are all businessman and a good one is always laying the ground work for the next deal.

I don't care what line of work someone is in, if your writing them a check for 20k+ every other year or so, even if they hate you, you'll swear they are your best friend.

If you think you are your PH's best friend, how many of his other clients also think the same thing? How many PHs have you hunted with in the last 5 years? How many clients do those PHs hunt with in just one year? Is your relationship with your PH truly unique? Tell him that you have been on your last African safari and see how strong that friendship remains.

Certainly you can develop a strong bond with a PH, but honestly it is fundamentally based on a business relationship.

I too have played gracious host to a few PHs, but they were also wined and dined by other clients. I certainly don't consider my relationship with the PH special just because he accepted a free dinner from me.

Too many people fall in love with their first PH and immediately book a second safari with him. How can everyone have a perfect first safari with the best PH in Africa? Maybe better to decide whether that first safari and first PH were perfect only after having gone on a few other safaris with a few different PHs.

When I talk to references, I want to hear from the guy whose has been on several safaris (with different outfitters and PHs). Honestly, I get very little usable information from a first timer and even less from a guy whose has been on several safaris, all with the same outfitter and PH.

Regards,

Terry

Man, this is really an interesting topic for me. Even though I'm probably in the "my PH is my friend' crowd, I'm not that naive to think that *I* am his favorite friend for life. Having said that, I have stayed at his house for several days at no charge. During the September 11 attacks, i was stuck in Zim for a couple of days and he let me stay at his house absolutely free of charge and on the second safari we sayed at his house again at no charge. I would LOVE to try other PHs and other countries and I've had many discussions with my friend Allen about this, but I feel very "safe' in my dealings with my PH. I can't afford a 30K fiasco like the current Peyton Place tragedy here on AR. I feel pretty good about the way I've selected my hunts, the aniimals hunted and the money spent. My relationship with my PH might be a total facade, but the LAST thing on my mind whenI board the jet to head to Africa is the possibility that I'm going to get fleeced. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
When I talk to references, I want to hear from the guy whose has been on several safaris (with different outfitters and PHs). Honestly, I get very little usable information from a first timer and even less from a guy whose has been on several safaris, all with the same outfitter and PH. Is this being "disloyal" to my previous PHs? Not in my opinion. It's just being prudent.

Regards,

Terry

Well said, and I totally agree.

Although I very much enjoyed hunting ele with the PH I did this summer, and have enjoyed several other PHs before, I will most likely try another (his partner for that sake) next time just to check out for myself the many great PHs out there. And in the end, after several more hunts, perhaps settle on one or two.

My former PH touffic was my host twice in France. But when in France he offered my close friends very low prices so I think things are balanced.

My outfitter in the CAR, Michel Angelvy, is running a couple of shops and restaurants in Paris. Many times my cousin and me were in Paris and we never paid a cent to eat, the outfitter invited us in his restaurants. I am proud to say the outfitter is more paying than us. In 39 days we'll be back in the CAR in his outfit. We have already a 10% discount. Should one of us shoot a bongo or a giant forest hog, we'll be treated like no paying VIP.