The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Are the killing powers (on big game) of the .22 RF a myth?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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We have all seen thousands of articles and post on various calibers for big game. Debates about the 243 being a marginal caliber for deer and that the 6.5 killed above its weight even on moose 7 polar bear. That the 270 was the lightning of Thor & that the 30'06 was as safe as Fort Knox. We have also had various debates about how a .22RF in the heart will kill an elephant & that it will kill a buffalo if placed in the brain......Yes I know of people killing deer with a .22 RF & pigs shot behind the ear go down like a tall tree to a chainsaw. I have even read of a hunter in India killing a leopard with a .22 (and I have seen the photo of one in Thailand killing a tiger with a .22 HiPower) But do we really have evidence that a buffalo has been killed with a .22RF in the brain or an elephant killed with a .22RF in the heart? My friend grant has a 60+ acre forestry & lifestyle place near here. We go there to shoot our rifles. He also leases off the grazing & just keeps enough to grow a few steers & sheep for the freezer. About 2 weeks ago he decided to harvest a steer & put it in the freezer. He lured it closer by putting our some hay. Then he gave it one between the eyes with his .22RF at about 8 feet. It shook its head and ran about 10 yards. It seemed totally unaffected. No wabbles, no shaking of the head or blood in the nose. So he took out his 303 and gave it one below the ear. But things got hairy as he forgot to compensate for the lower POI at such close range & shot the poor animal through the jaw. One more shot in the ear and that was that..... When he cut up the animal, he sectioned the head with a saw and found the .22 had penetrated 9 inches and had come to rest in the middle of the brain. But no major damage or bleeding except for the bullet path! Any views and particularly any experiences with a .22RF & BIG animals? "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | ||
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I would really doubt that a 40 gr lead slug could penetrate an elephant's skin and make it to the heart. That just sounds like BS. On brain shots I can believe that the 22RF could kill a buffalo, but the angles would have to be just so. I can,t see it happening in the wild unless a guy was up a tree overlooking a well used trail. Now as to your friend Grant's steer escapade. I have a very similar tale regarding a steer and a 30-30. My grandfather was a butcher and a friend asked if he could butcher a steer. Long story short the owner was to kill the steer and my grandfather and I would quarter and butcher it after the owner killed it. His tool of choice was a lever action 30-30. The first shot was between the eyes and dropped the steer. He was obviously no dead and tried to get up after about a minute. A second shot was placed into the back of the steer's head, but that one also failed to kill it. A third shot was put through the eye and that one did the trick, but it was a real mess until then. My point is that the brain shot has to hit the brain to be effective. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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http://www.retro.co.za/gundex/...20with%20a%2022.html Best- Locksley,R. "Early in the morning, at break of day, in all the freshness and dawn of one's strength, to read a book - I call that vicious!"- Friedrich Nietzsche | |||
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All I can say is that I have seen plenty of cattle and horses shot through the brain with a single .22 slug that dropped (and died) like a pole-axed steer. Cattle brains DO NOT lie between the eyes...unless you are laying on the ground shooting up at them. But miss the CNS by a few inches...and they may have little or no effect. I am living proof of that fact. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Amen Doc I 22lr will instantly put down a pig if done right. | |||
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I once had a client confess to me that he had unintentionally killed a mule deer doe that was feeding on his garden. He shot it with a 22 cal. air rifle! He had just intended to "scare it off" but managed to place a bullet into the brain apparently via the nasal cavities. He was a bit fuzzy on why he had shot at its head to begin with but the result was the same. It was a prime example of "NEVER, EVER SHOOT AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT INTEND TO KILL". I asked him what he did with the dead animal, he told me he buried it in the garden! He admitted that he went into a total panic as it was months out of season and he lived in a development of "ranchetts" of 5 to 25 acres and was afraid one of his neighbors could have turned him in. Thanks for the link Robin, very interesting article. It important to remember that when we discuss the merits of large caliber weapons for whatever, any firearm is capable of killing damn near anything under the correct circumstances. | |||
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I've farmed off and on most of my life. I've butchered a lot of livestock. My first hand experience is only on livestock, which is usually younger and tamer. I never shot an old holstein bull with a 22LR. We always used a hammer for them. I've often wondered whether a 22 LR would penetrate that harder bone that you have in a mature bovine. I know it takes a heck of a wack with a six pound hammer to knock a bull down long enough to stick him. When we cut them up, you can see that the bone was a lot harder, kind of flinty. Much different from a young animal raised for slaughter. I have shot a bunch of older hogs and on occaision had the bullet slide across the bone, instead of penetrating. But it usually stunned them enough that we could stick them before they got their wits togeter. All this makes me think that a 22 would not get through the bone on an older animal like a mature bull buffalo. I've always suspected the stories were just that, but again, I have no personal experience with buffalo or elephant. Bfly I thought i should add that we preferred a 22 short for slaughter hogs(200 pounders), because the short would not damage the brain. They only went partway into the skull, and stunned the hog. In Dutch country, brains are considered a food product. You can't sell them if they are all blood shot or damaged. Bfly Work hard and be nice, you never have enough time or friends. | |||
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I'd like to amend that and say "NEVER, EVER I've seen and we've all read about the accidents that occur when we fail to follow that rule. Sorry, for the OT, but can't be said enough ... NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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We had a neighbor's old holstein bull get in with our beef cows several times. We would run it back through the fence and fix the fence and the next day it would be back in with our cows. My dad warned the neighbor several times that if he didn't keep the bull off of our ranch that we would "take care" of it. Finally one day my dad had had enough and got his 30-06. He was shooting his usual deer load of 180gr Sierras and shot the bull 3 times in the head (he knew where the brain was) and it just shook it's head and got madder. Finally he put one in the heart and that finished it off. No way a 22 is going to penetrate that skull. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Death by hammer! Something about that tickled me. When I was a kid we always shot hogs for slaughter with a .22, we didn't have cattle, but I'll bet the old hammer would do the trick. | |||
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I have seen many a packer bull killed with a .22 in brain frontally. Used to be a standard at many killing plants. Shot one that was down with torn stifles the other day with my .444 Marlin with plinking loads of 12 g Unique and a 250 cast bullet. I promise a .30-06 would way out penetrate it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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.22RF will kill a zombie deader than fried chicken . . . but you MUST shoot them in the head. Don't believe me . . . ask Tex G. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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That says more about the sierras than it does about .30-06. We know that a lot of elephants have been successfully shot through the skull with .30-06 and lesser cartridges using solids. The price of knowledge is great but the price of ignorance is even greater. | |||
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I was given a box of 22LR many years ago that I was told were used for slaughtering cattle. They were not lead bullets but sintered iron. I was told they did not deform and would penetrate better and also there was no lead so the brain could be eaten. I was young and shot them at rocks because they made sparks. I was told, not long ago, a (I assumed) BS story about poachers shooting elephants with a 22lr up the trunk and it would follow the passage to the brain. How one would get close enough to do that and not get stomped on eludes me. Mark | |||
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Just for a point of reference, in a slaughter operations, you don't want to kill the animal with the blow to the brain, whether you shoot it, or use one of the new thingamajigs, or a hammer. The goal is to stun the animal, so you have time to cut an appropriate artery, so that it is bled out with the heart pumping. If you do serious brain damage, the heart may stop and it won't bleed out properly. If the heart isn't pumping, the there will be pockets of blood in the carcass. Its a very messy and not very pretty business slaughtering livestock. Bfly Work hard and be nice, you never have enough time or friends. | |||
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I'm not saying that the above statement is incorrect, but I have to wonder if it is one of those things that didn't really get tested because no one was willing to chance on ruining meat. I say this because I know a Namibian farmer who kills a lot of gemsbok for meat. He always used brain-shots with a 30-06 at 50-100m. I asked him about bleeding them(as I had always heard that was one of the downsides of brain shots: no bleed-out) and he said that you had a couple of minutes to cut the carotid before the heart stopped. He made it sound really easy. I was a bit skeptical..... Then one day he asked me to shoot an old gemsbok bull for staff rations. I agreed and he instructed me to shoot just behind the ear. I was shooting a 375 and the distance was about 80 yards. I took my time and all went well. As you can imagine the brain was destroyed. When we got to the bull after a quick jog, my PH cut the carotid and the bull pumped out a large amount of blood. My point is that I believe the heart continues to pump independent of the brain.(but I realize that this might not always be the case) Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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As a veterinarian...I have watched an ECG on many dying animals. One thing that has always amazed me was how long that the heart keeps electrical activity after death. With a pure CNS disruption...the heart can and usually does beat for quite some time. Its efficiency as a pump deminishes rapidly...but can move blood for minutes usually. It is usually hypoxemia that kills the heart as the respiratory centers in the brain quit working. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Ledvm and others with mnore technical knowledge of the process would know better than I. My technical knowledge is more to the entomologic world. I was sharing what I was taught by my Grandad, who apprenticed as a butcher way back in the early 1900's. What he told me may have been incorrect, but was what I was taught and how we operated. It would make sense that the heart would operate in an ancillary way, so that an animal could survive interuptions in nerve impulses that might not be fatal. I aprreciate the correct scientific information being posted. Bfly Work hard and be nice, you never have enough time or friends. | |||
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Having been involved in the processing of a few cattle/sheep/hogs, both stuff I have done at home and stuff I have watched being done at a processor, the procedure is a single 22 bullet into the brain to stun the animal ans then a quick cut across rhe throat to cut the jugulars. The heart will then pump out blood until it runs out. This is why I maintain that if I were only able to have one gun, it would not be a 22 RF. Too many things have to be just right to keep from pissing something off. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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A friend of mine that owned a fish camp up north was having some trouble with black bears. One day a good sized bear walked across his deck. He shoot it with his 22LR through the screen door ... in the ear. I guess it dropped like a stone. I think the intent was to move him along his way. It didn't work out quit that way. A 22 LR will knock down a moose with a heart shot. | |||
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Again I have to question what is really going on(I ask because I don't know, I'm not trying to stir things-up). Is the animal simply "stunned" by a 22 into the brain, or is it killed by the 22 and only appears to have been "stunned" because the heart continues to pump? ++++++++ Back to the original question: after reading the article on the Elephant killed with a 22, I guess I was way off on killing power of the 22lr. If a 22 can kill and elephant under the right circumstances, I guess it is fair to say that it could kill almost anything under the right circumstances. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I believe the slaughter houses use a "gun" that forces a small diameter rod through the skull. The rod is approx 1/4 inch and when the gun is fired projects out about 2 inches penetrating the skull and stunning the animal. I think it is fired by 22 blanks but it is closer to a nail gun than a firearm. The rod never leaves the mechanism but is retracted for the next "shot". Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Obviously solids would be a better choice. Any soft will bounce off the skull because unless you are on top of the animal the bullet is striking at an acute angle. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol | |||
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Blacktailer, They now use an air driven captive bolt gun that is similar to what you are describing above. That is what the hit man on "No Country for Old Men" carried around. But not too long ago...some commercial and still a lot of individual kill floors used plain old .22 rounds. As I grew up on a ranch and am now an equine vet...I have shot and seen shot many horses and cattle including old bulls. In a chute...with proper shot placement...a .22 will kill any domestic bovine. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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A .30-06 with any of todays softs will shoot through any bovine skull at any angle. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Well damn, I guess I'm gona have to build myself a .22LR double rifle now for the big five! ................................  I'd rather not take on a Cape buffalo with a .22LR, and I have my doubts that a 22LR bullet would reach the heart of an elephant and certainly not the brain! However the way into the brain on a bovine is not between the eyes, but just behind the ear, angled toward the off side eye through the thinest bone around the brain. However I'll let someone else check it out! While WWII was underway I shot a lot of whitetail deer and wild hogs with .22LR head shots to supply meat for four families who moved on my Grandfather's ranch in the North West end of the Texas hill country while all the men were fighting the war! I don't think, however I'd be likely to shoot an elephant with a .22LR!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37: Well damn, I guess I'm gona have to build myself a .22LR double rifle now for the big five! ................................ Like this?  In my own humble opinion way too much is made of what CAN be done with any caliber as opposed to what SHOULD (or more correctly, shouldn't) be done with it. The .22 is certianly capable of some amazing feats under ideal conditions, just as someone (some of you may know) once pointed out that you can haul quite a few bags of cement on the luggage rack of a corvette... but a pick-up truck is much more suitable! An old man sleeps with his conscience, a young man sleeps with his dreams. | |||
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My imagination is way too active to be comfortable bushwacking in Africa with just a .22 rimfire in my hands. Gpopper | |||
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Every gun has a job it is best for. A 22LR double would be prefect for going it to the bush following a wounded guinea or stopping a charging mongoose (with proper solids, not hollow points) Mark | |||
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Such action though mandates shots be restricted to heart/lung shots as the brain shot is just too uncertain given the intricacies of regulation on the unpredictable ranges of such things. She does come smoothly to the shoulder though for the snap shooting necessary in the event of charging dassies!  oupa An old man sleeps with his conscience, a young man sleeps with his dreams. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Are the killing powers (on big game) of the .22 RF a myth?
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