Flip good luck on your problem lion.
I started a new topic as I did not want my question to hi-jack Flips.
I will be taking 2 rifles to Africa in 2004, a 450 No2, and a 9.3x74R [with scope in QD mounts].
Either one of these rifles could be the one I shoot the lion with, depending on the circumstances.
My question is this, which soft for lion?
In the 450 No2 the choices are:
500gr. Hornady SP
500gr. Swift A-Frame
480 Woodleigh SP

In the 9.3x74R the choices are:
285 Hawk .035jkt
286 Nosler Partition
286 Woodleigh SP

Thanks for your input.

Woodleigh RNSP's in both rifles, and more emphatically so if your rifles are doubles that give the classic ballistics of their chamberings, IMHO. Your selected bullet weights for the Woodleighs you listed are perfect too.

The Woodleigh soft is the most accurate bullet I have found in my .470 NE. I would use no other soft for any game, and they would be THE BEST for simba.

I would prefer the GSC FN for a solid load in my double, whenever a solid was needed.

Woodleigh softs and GSC FN's have got it covered for any game in any SXS double big bore. Just my $0.02.

Dagga Ron thanks for your reply. My doubles shoot the listed bullets all to the same point of aim. I was wondering if the faster expanding, with the addition of some fragmentation, of the Hornady 500gr might do more damage to the lion than the bonded core bullets?
Let me add that I am not a follower of the high velocity, fragmenting bullet school. but I do not want to use a bullet that is to "too" hard.

Good Morning,

I don't know where you are going to hunt but I expect that your lion will be taken in a baiting situation. Because lions come to bait mostly in the low light of dawn or dusk that pretty much rules out your open sighted 450. The scoped 9.3 with any of the bullets you have mentioned should work great. I like NP's because I'm positive that they will shred the lungs on a soft animal like a lion but work great on big stuff too.

Any of these bullets would be a good choice for frontal or side shots, but in the unhappy circumstance of a second shot at a departing lion that did not go down to the initial shot I would feel much better about the A-Frame. It offers the best combination of expansion and penetration with excellent weight retention.In fact that is just what I am using in Tanzania this year in my 416 !!!!

Jim

I am, of course, referring to double rifles only when recommending the Woodleighs over all other soft points.

I stopped using Hornady RNSP's on game after seeing the cores shed completely from the jacket, on broadside shots, even with only 2150 fps MV using 500 grain .458 Hornady RNSP's. Hornady RNSP's are good target bullets, or non-dangerous game bullets that will keep the meat processor in business, however.

I would prefer to eliminate any nagging doubts in a dangerous game bullet, soft or solid.

In a double rifle of any caliber the Woodleigh soft is tough to beat, for many reasons. I think the bonded core Woodleighs would hold together well enough to reach vitals from any angle on simba, and do a lot of destruction along the way, with very little chance of fragmentation.

Sure, in a bolt action, there are a lot of other options, softs or solids.

In a bolt action for DG I would prefer any of these big bore "softs" at higher-than-double-rifle-velocities:

Swift A-Frame
GSC HV
Barnes X
Trophy Bonded Bear Claw
North Fork
Nosler Partition ...

... if available in caliber and weight desired.

Seems like Nosler and Hornady are getting on the bonded core band wagon soon.

North Fork should have a web site soon.

I agree with Mark. Unless you are a damn good shot with an open-sighted double, use a scope.

As for Partitions, somewhere along the way it has been forgotten that the front lead core is suppose to shed, especially in the sub-.416 calibers. They will bust a lion, in .375 anyway.

Will

I really like the Woodleighs...The 320 gr. 9.3 is a winner IMO, but I like the 286 also...You can never go wrong with a Woodleigh on Lion, they fit the bill....

My favorite Lion bullet is the North Forks if you can get them in either caliber....They should be out soon in the 9.3 I believe.

The Nosler and the Swift are both good bullets and the GS FN is the best solid, the Bridger FN solid should be just as good..

N E 450 No2

For your loved 9,X74 r I would choose Woodleigh or nosler. Some claim that to hard sofpoint are not that well suited for cat's since they expand very little if they go thru soft tissue and much energy goes to waste. I have no hands on experince since Leopard or lion is not any common game in Sweden

I think the woodleigh or GS softs would do fine in the 470.

good luck
/ JOHAN

If I hunt the Lion over bait I will use the 9.3...But my PH stated that if conditiions are "right" we might do a "sneak" and "shoot". If I am going to be within 50 yards I would like to use the 450 No2. Not because I think the extra "power" is necessary, I just like the big double.

So the general opinion is I do not need to take any 500gr. Hornadys to Africa. Just take 480 Woodleigh soft points, and a few 500gr Swift A -Frames for my second buff. I figure I will use a Woodleigh soft for lion, for the first shot on Buff no.1 and in the intrest of science use a Swift 500gr. A-Frame for the first shot on Buff no. 2. What do ya'll think?
Woodleigh Solids are my Solid of choice.
I plan to use the 285 Hawk in the 9.3 on Leopard, and 286 Nosler Partition, and 286 Woodleigh on Lion and the plain's game. I will take some 286 Woodleigh solids in case I run into a buff or hippo while carrying the 9.3.

Matchkings in a 45/70, at 1500, because we all KNOW slower softer bullets penetrate better...

<ducking and hiding back behind my 500 jeff, with 535 woodleigh at 2350>

jeffe

Sounds like to me your taking too many different types of bullets and that can get one into trouble about as quick as anything I know, but that's just my opine...

Settle on one soft point and one solid that shoot to the same POI in each gun and leave the bloody Hawks at home, ain't worth spit for anything.

I don't know Ray, those 9.3 285gr.035jkt Hawks have killed several good sized pigs in their tracks, big mushroom, excellent penetration and weight retention, etc. they hit in the same group as the 286 Nosler Partition to 200 yards. While the Nosler has always gone right through the hog, whether hit at 17 yds or @ 100 yards, most all the pigs manage to run a bit. The Hawk hit pigs go straight down. I think it just might be the ticket for Leopard, at least for the first shot.

Never been to Africa, but I gotta agree with Ray; sounds like A LOT of emphasis is on the equipment, bullets, etc. instead of the hunting experience. This is not meant as a slam or flame on anyone, its just that I too spend a bit too much thinking on equipment and after the trip, I realize that the gear is not what I will remember in my twilight years. When I do get to Africa, I am sure I will be consumed with the same thoughts on proper preparation, equipment, etc. I always want to be properly equipped but not overly burdened with stuff, this is a challenging part of all hunts. Good luck, have a great time - KMule

Of course there is a lot of emphasis on rifles, loads, bullets and other equipment. That is part of the fun of the trip. The only reason I hunt is because to me it is fun. [Oh I eat the meat too]
Like many on this forum, I like to use different bullets, in the intrest of science and FUN. In the case of the 450 No2 all the bullets hit to the same POA, and any of the soft points would be adequate, and have been used on the game I intend to use them on.
In the case of the 9.3 I do not think I would choose the Hawks as the ideal bullet for Zebra or Eland, but based on its use on deer and pigs I think it would be ideal in Leopard. While the 286 Woodleigh may be the best all-round bullet in the 9.3, I know the Nosler Partition will penetrate deeper. They all hit to the same POA at 100 yards, and the Hawk and the Nosler hit to the same POA at 200. I have not shot the Woodleighs at 200 yards yet.
I do not plan on changing the bullet in the bbl durring a "real time" encounter. But if I am in the Leopard blind I could load a Hawk.
Likewise in the 450 No2 I could shoot the first buff with a Woodleigh soft, followed by a solid, and then load a Swift in the right bbl when I go looking for the second buff.
All this is part of the fun. Just to use the same bullets all the time... where is the fun in that?
I might as well play golf at least I would not be critized for having more than one club.

.......yeah, now golf, that is a real addiction. No criticism intended at all, you are very correct and I agree that one bullet/load/rifle to hunt with would not be much fun. Just today, going to the range to figure out which rifle I should use for spring bear............uh, lets see, I really like the 338 cause (fill in the blank) but man, does that 300 ultra shoot flat and with the new stock with no blood on it yet, uh, well, then there is the old reliable 06, man she shoots a tight group no matter what I feed her and she's a bit lighter to carry........... but what if I run into papa griz, then ............ having several options is a blessing for me, I am thankful for all I have and sometimes wish for a more simple way of doing all the things I'd like to do. Oh well.......so, is it the Pings? KMule

thanks N E 450 No2 you took the next qestion out of my mouth

Hey guys, this difference in opinion is what makes a horse race! Like Ray, I like to find the best, usually the heaviest for caliber, bullet for every rifle I hunt with, find a load that will make that bullet do the same thing evey shot, and use it exclusively in that rifle.

However, NE 450 No2 likes to experiment endlessly with this and that powder, bullet, and brass, and I'm very glad he does, because it saves me many dollars in componants doing it for myself. The best thing about 450's investigations is, he shares them with us, and, for him, it is fun, because it is his thing. Like his double rifles, his range time is the other half. The experimenting needed to find a proper load for a new double is,IMO, what draws NE 450 No1 to double rifles in the first place. When I first got heavily into makeing doubles work properly, I did the same thing he does now, only I had very limited selection of componants to work with, in those days. I even got into shaging my own bullets for some of the odd balls. It was nothing for me to shoot 100 rds of NITRO ammo of one type or another, every two or three days on the Deasert Sands Rifle range near my home! I personally appreciate NE 450 No2's posts here, as they not only put a face on the problems of loading for double rifles,for the young who have no idea, but also gives the old fart like me a break by teaching me something I hadn't already found, and saveing me the money it would take to discover it myself! One example is the discovery that the 75% wieght bullets shoot to the same POI as the 100 % bullets do with the same load, now, that is a find!

Thanks for the support MacD37.
Another reason I like to have loads worked up for more than one powder, more than one bullet, and more than one type of brass is that I want to avoid a "sole source" situation. Sometimes some supplies are discontinued, Nosler discontinued 375 Partitions once. Companies go out of business. Woodleigh Bullets, and Bertram Brass are made in Australia, that Goverment could outlaw any production of any thing gun related. Products are discontinued, or can become in short supply for a while due to when in the companys production schedule certain items are made. I started using HDS brass for my 450/400 3 1/4, when I got ready to order some more they were out. I asked how long before they would have some, they said ONE YEAR . They had some Bertram in stock so I got it. Now I have 2 sources for 400 brass. In the 450 No2 Bertram is the only source, I have a lifetime supply.
Two ways to prevent this: Have multiple loads tested with different components. Or have a "lifetime" supply of your chosen components on hand.
Plus I just like using different bullets. Enquiring minds want to know.
Some of ya'll test out my 75% theory. I would like to get feed back form other double rifle shooters.
Big bore bolt and single shot shooters might want to try it too.

450#2,
Being the eternal experimenter with bullets I can equate with your posts but I cringe at the idea of shooting any species of dangerous game with a Hawk bullet considering the number of bullets I have blown up on game with them.. I have a number of them on my desk as we speak and have posted those bullets on this forum.....Of course they kill well with over expansion, all bullets do when they over expand, but over expanded bullets are on the brink of failure and failure on a Leopard is pure unadulterated hell...I have followed them with a flashlight at night and the pucker factor is at an all time high as anyone who has followed a wounded Leopard at night can tell you...

Of course I'm preaching now, and I am not your keeper so I apoligise for that.

Thanks Ray all advise is welcome. I have based my thoughts on the Hawk's from the results I have had with the 300gr..025jkt in the 450/400 and in the 9.3x74R with a 285gr..035jkt. on deer and Wild pigs, some of which have had a pretty good gristle plate.... But I have not shot a leopard, so that is the reason I ask. Would you consider them "tougher" than a 275lb. pig on bullets? Some of the .025jkt.400's have almost "coined out", but the .035jkt 9.3's still have a good shank section and a big mushroom. No jacket core seperation.
If the Hawk's are out of the picture:
Which do you consider the best for leopard?
Which is the best for lion?
The 286 Nosler Partition or the 286 Woodleigh?

For Leopard I would tend to use the 230 Gr. GS HV as it would not destroy the skin and it kills very well on light anilmals as does the 286 gr. Nosler or Woodleigh....Any of those 3 bullets would work fine....I suspect the Barnes X would also, but have had better experiences with GS.

The Hawks may or may not work fine, but you have to take into account that an ocassional failure and Murphy work together....

I have simply had more than enough failures with all the Hawks at one time or another, they also build excessive pressure in double rifles and they are simply nothing more than the old conventional bullet of yesteryear, they are not soldered, they have no petition, the have no interlock..they are soft copper, soft lead, and long on claims and hype, and they may well work most of the time at low velocity....They have failed on me in the 7x57 with a 175 gr. .035 jacket on a spike mule deer...They failed on a Kudu, Eland, and a Black Wildebeest and one other animal ? using them in 338, 225 gr. .035 jackets...This was out of some 20 some odd animals shot...so that is where I come from on the subject...

I also ordered .411 bullets twice and got .412 to .418 bullets in the same box that would crush the case before they would seat..Hawk blamed it on Bell and Norma brass as being inferior, that ridiculas bit of trivia did it for me!!!....So that is where I am with Hawk bullets since the new owners took over.....

If you have confidence in Hawks, then by all means use them...Mine is only opinnion, based on my experiences with different calibers than yours and apparantly they work in your gun with your loads. My guns were churning much more velocity.
But keep in mind a wounded Leopard in the bush is no Texas feral pig, a good reason to use a proven product such as Woodleigh or Noslers...

N E 450 No2,

You are looking to experiment so have fun.
Remember that although Lions weigh between 450 and 500lbs, they are soft skinned animals. With that said, your choice of soft point (Swift A-Frame, Nosler) will do the job. The 450 for the Lion, may be considered by some circles of thought as overkill. As we all know shot placement is the most important.

I would suggest, a scoped rifle initially (as previously mentioned), in the blind or if you are going to track them/him up.

Good Luck

Vaughan

I would sure keep both rifles handy, have the tracker carry the double...If I had to follow up a wounded lion, the big double would be my choice over a 9.3 every time, and I don't see it as being overkill...I have never seen overkill on Lions, but then a wounded Lion is the only animal that gives me butterflies, they make too damn much noise while zeroing in on you....

I agree it would be best to keep both rifles handy, and that will be my plan. I would carry whichever rifle was proper for the time, but to be able to switch when/if it becomes necessary would be an excellent idea.
I too would prefer my 450 No2 in my hands any time an animal is running at me for sure.