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Yes, you heard it here first...Is this the same OOA that everyone speaks of? Saturday night Auction from OUT OF AFRICA ADVETURIOUS SAFARIS (JANNEMAN & TERESSA GROENEWALD) 16 day ZIMBABWE hunt for 1 hunter and non-hunter. Includes Leopard, Cape Buffalo and Sable. Valued at $25,000.00 USD. If this is the same Out Of Africa, then how come SCI is letting this auction through if they are indeed banned from hunting Zim? | ||
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Per the SCI website: 16-day leopard, Cape buffalo and sable hunt for one hunter and one non-hunter Generously Donated By: Out Of Africa Adventurous Safaris Hunt African countries where a hunter can experience a safari complete with optimal accommodation and amenities. Longtime donors and returning exhibitors Janneman and Teressa Groenewald of Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris have donated this exciting 16-day, hunter's choice of method of take hunt for the dangerous Cape buffalo, African leopard and sable. This 1x1 guided safari for one hunter and one non-hunter offers a fantastic hunt for classic trophies in Zimbabwe. Join the ranks of the legendary bushveld hunters as you stalk your dangerous game and seek your elusive sable bull. Schedule hunt with outfitter for open dates February 1- November 30, 2005 or 2006. Hunt includes modern bush camp accommodations, meals, beverages (beer, wine and soft drinks), 1x1 guide service, hunting permits, conservation fees, rifle permit for one rifle, hunting area transportation, field prep. and trophy fees for donated animals. Not included are before/after hunt accommodations, dipping, packing, taxidermy, shipping and gratuities. Transportation during the hunt is on foot and 4x4 vehicle, and the hunter should be prepared for a moderately strenuous trip. Additional hunters cost $850/day; non-hunters cost $200/day. See outfitter for cost of hunt extension or additional trophies. The buyer of this outfitter's donated hunt in 2000 for spiral-horned antelope rated the hunt excellent in every category, commenting that he and his wife were 'treated like royalty' and they will return. Arrival/departure point is Victoria Falls. For more information, contact Janneman or Teressa Groenewald by phone at 913/851-2308. Donation Value: $25000.00 Donation Number: 16185 Slot Number: SN026 Go to http://www.showsci.com/auction/auction.asp and Search by Location for Zimbabwe. Funny thing is that I just got an email from The Hunting Report stating that OoA says they do not hunt Zimbabwe. | |||
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One of Us |
SCI says that have not seen "proof" about the illegal hunting allegation, even though they have been informed by ZIM Parks that Out of Africa has been banned in ZIM. Could SCI be in it for the money? | |||
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one of us |
Proof and money will indeed soon be the issue. But maybe not in the meaning that many are so quick to jump to. I'll bet you that lawyers are involved now and the money question for SCI will become how much they want to spend in court determing which "proof" is "proof". What if lawyers for OoA file suit against SCI? Does SCI want to spend a couple hundred thousand proving Zim's case, and which Zim official is to be believed? | |||
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One of Us |
Since they list Victoria Falls as the start point my money says they are hunting on siezed Gwayi Valley properties or right in Hwange. ~Ann | |||
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one of us |
Don Heath kindly faxed me a copy of the letter from Zim Parks banning OoA from hunting in Zim. The letter does not say anything about them selling a hunt that is to be conducted in Zim by a proper outfitter there. I am taking copies to Reno, and I will ask "outfitter" who is actually doing the hunting. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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quote: Jim Your splitting hairs in your defense of the actions by SCI in allowing the donation. | |||
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quote: Jim, are you sure that is the side of the moral fence you want to be on? ___ quote: I am quite certain that SCI is in a far better financial position to litigate that OOA. By the way, do you have any connection to OOA? Any friends there? Your hostility toward anyone who questions OOA's conduct is a bit too strong for a disinterested bystander. | |||
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No 500 grains, I have no connection whatsoever with OaA. A-R posters Aspen Hill Ann and Mike Smith were sitting right next to me at a recent SCI Chapter event and can attest that I didn't bid on their offering or anything remotely supporting them. What bothers me is the price that SCI is paying for this whole OoA fiasco. Warts and all, there aren't that many other organizations out there supporting hunter rights and doing positive things for hunting like SCI. And there are certainly other PH's hunting on seized Zim land. Some of our very own posters have hunted on it! There also seems to be some associations of outfits hunting on Tanzania concessions that probably wouldn't hold up to much scrutiny either. OaA will probably produce documents from some officials in Zim that "prove" they are licensed. Other officials in Zim will say otherwise. And at the end of the day a lot of money will probably be spent on legal fees. SCI does not have a money tree out back. Much of their money comes from.... donated hunts! It comes from volunteers at chapters putting in long hours at fundraisers. I don't think I've been hostile to anybody. Just because I think things should be thought through does not make me hostile. People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf | |||
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Matt, I agree that SCI, the NRA, GOA, RMEF, and other organizations have noble missions. And warts. But as I see it SCI has crossed the line and is directly profiting from the sale of poaching. That is my objection. There are others besides OOA who should be the target of investigation and banning by SCI and its local chapters but I do not know their names. Hopefully ZIM Parks will make the names of the others known. Also please note that the letter in question is signed by the Diretor General of Zim National Parks. But the letter purporting to exonerate was signed by a lower official, perhaps after receiving a bribe? So it's pretty clear where this whole thing shakes out. | |||
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I don't agree that SCI has crossed the line. I do believe that there are a couple people in SCI who have apparently crossed the line. So lets not blame all of SCI. And don't forget the dueling Zim officials we apprently have here. This wildlife official plus a general say they are licensed, whereas some other official says no. I suppose it will be the bigger bribe that will prevail. Meanwhile, SCI is bleeding membership over this. | |||
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What bothers me is that it appears that SCI is willing to let one of their own members fork out a considerable sum of money knowing that there could be some real problems down the road. I would think that SCI would want to tell OoA that while we appreciate your offer, let's pass for now until this is all settled out. But then again, they didn't ask me!! JDS And so if you meet a hunter who has been to Africa, and he tells you what he has seen and done, watch his eyes as he talks. For they will not see you. They will see sunrises and sunsets such as you cannot imagine, and a land and a way of life that is fast vanishing. And always he will will tell you how he plans to go back. (author: David Petzer) | |||
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quote: That is something that SCI could correct if it wanted. It would be best for SCI to avoid not only impropriety, but all appearance of impropriety. And since it looks to all appearances like SCI makes money from the sale of illegal hunts, and by providing an illegl hunter with a venue for selling illegal hunts, SCI is wearing a very large tatoo of the appearance of impropriety right now. But SCI is not just losing membership over this. SCI's lobbying efforts will have little credability if it does business with poachers. And SCI will have difficulty generating donations from its members as well. Unfortunately you and I really cannot do much to change the situation. But hopefully the directors of SCI will see the light and direct SCI in a new direction. | |||
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For Hunter Jim and Matt Out of Africa working as a booking Agent could pay for a hunt (in full) and then donate that. They will need to have either a clearance from the reserve bank of Zimbabwe for their local partner to have donated the hunt, or a reciept for the funds in a Zimbabwe bank to prove that they have paid for the hunt in advance for the donation to be legal in terms of Zim law. And, while they may have bought the hunting off General Chiwenga, he isn't going to stick his neck out for them, especially considering that Zim and South Africa have recently had a fall out over South African Agents buying state secrets from top officials. Provided they pay, the general will let OOA hunt, but he isn't going to defend them. Not with the Secret police (CIO) having branded OoA a threat to national security. I Imagine OoA will simpply state that they are the booking Agents for ...lets see Nyala Safaris and Kazangula Safaris, and that the hunt will take place on the zim operators concession. If those are the Zim operators they "represent" you have a choice of doing busness with someone on the US banned list or poaching. Personally, I believe that this whole issue will end when the minister tires of things (ie After April when he knows he is secure) and some white South African PH (not necessarily one of the OOA team as there are others) is picked up for spying or poaching and beaten to a pulp, given a dose of AIDS and TB and then sent home as a warning. | |||
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Delightful. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I sent an email to SCI this morning expressing dismay that these hunts are even being offered. If I get a reply today, I will post it. We leave for the convention tomorrow morning. I will be sure to ask about it there. THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
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quote: Dan, As you know I am not an OOA fan! I can state that neither is my friend Matt and I am sure that Jim isnt either for that matter.Let us ignore the fact that a few muckity mucks in SCI have apparently made some questionable decisions. I agree things should have never gone this far. However, as you know there is a huge difference in knowing something and proving it. As a lawyer you are certainly familiar with the burden of proof. Up until now the people in Zim have not given us anything that would stand up in a court of USA law. I wont even discuss what passes for the rule of law in Zim at the moment. The problem has been we have had nothing that would stand legally. The "legality" of OOA and others depends on whose blessing they have in Zim. There is even considerable in fighting among the people there. You have various "officials" taking contradictory positions. Let me restate I have been a strong antagonist of OOA and others in this. However we got to this point here is the reality at the moment. SCI has accepted many donations from OOA. We will ignore the issue if this should have ever happened for the moment. However unless something like a legal conviction is given to us meaning SCI we are pretty much stuck for now. OOA I am sure has lawyers lined up for liable and slander among other things. The best thing we can do at this point is just let things play out as is. Hopefully no one will bid on the hunt and if they do it is buyer beware. They are on their own. Then next year we have the right to decline any donation we please. There is no sense in spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawsuits. The money is better spent defending and promoting hunting around the world. The best thing we can do is let this die quietly for now. If or when we get a legal conviction then other action can be taken. I hope this will all be sorted out soon. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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Here is the reply I got from SCI this afternoon. "Out of Africa has been found completely innocent of all allegations of wrong doings. This is a result of malicious rumors that SCI does not support. Potential buyers of any Out of Africa services should rest assured that this company will legally honor any service sold to them. Best regards, Jason Curtis Auction Program Manager " SCI THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
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quote: Interesting post considering neither of the 'winners' of the last two donated hunts to SCI have recieved their animals and the Zim Government has evidently siezed all the 2004 trophies from OoA that they could find. And SCI tells the buyers it is their problem, between them and OoA. I wonder if Mr Curtis has found any pollups where he gets his information? | |||
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quote: Mike As a member of SCI OoA is held to the decisions of the Board of Directors. The By laws clearly let the Ethics Committe ban anyone from the Convention or withold any donations that they feel might adversely effect SCI or its members. The Ethics Committee has done this numerous times in the past. SCI can and should solve this by not allowing OoA to sell Zim hunts and pull their donation. It would have a few years ago. | |||
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quote: Somebody fax Jason the latest letter from the Parks Board. Sounds like he is relying on that letter from Nyathi reportedly absolving OoA. Regards, Terry Msasi haogopi mwiba [A hunter is not afraid of thorns] | |||
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I posted the reply I got without comment, but would like to add the following. I will be at the SCI convention, and may well bid on some items, but these hunts will not be among them. Too much doubt has been shed on the company, so I feel the wise thing to do is not to bid on them. The problem is that if the allegations above are true, then some poor sucker will buy a hunt and get stuck. IMO, given the reply I got by email, SCI should be liable since they are giving an endorsement of the ability of OoA to fulfill the obligation. It further seems it would be prudent for SCI not to offer these hunts given the doubts about the outfitter. THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
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quote: 10. Constantine CHIWENGA [Lt. Gen., Commander of the Army, born 25 Aug. 1956] number 10 on Bush's proscribed Executive Order; For Immediate Release Office of the Press Secretary March 7, 2003 Executive Order: Blocking Property Of Persons Undermining Democratic Processes Or Institutions In Zimbabwe By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50U.S.C.1701 et seq.) (IEEPA), the National Emergencies Act(50U.S.C.1601 et seq.), and section301 of title3, United States Code, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, have determined that the actions and policies of certainmembers of the Government of Zimbabwe and other persons to undermine Zimbabwe's democratic processes or institutions, contributing to the deliberate breakdown in the rule of law in Zimbabwe, to politically motivated violence and intimidation in that country, and to political and economic instability in the southern African region, constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the foreign policy of the United States, and I hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat. I hereby order: Section1. Except to the extent provided in section203(b) of IEEPA (50U.S.C.1702(b)), and in regulations, orders, directives, or licenses that may be issued pursuant to this order, and notwithstanding any contract entered into or any license or permit granted prior to the effective date of this order, all property and interests in property of the following persons that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of United States persons, including their overseas branches, are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in: (a) the persons listed in the Annex to this order; and (b) any person determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State, to be owned or controlled by, or acting or purporting to act directly or indirectly for or on behalf of, any of the persons listed intheAnnex to this order. Sec. 2. (a) Any transaction or dealing by a United States person or within the United States in property or interests in property blocked pursuant to this order is prohibited, including but not limited to the making or receiving of any contribution of funds, goods, or services to or for the benefit of any person listed in the Annex to this order or who is the subject of a determination under subsection1(b) of this order. (b) Any transaction by a United States person or within the United States that evades or avoids, has the purpose of evading or avoiding, or attempts to violate any of the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited. (c) Any conspiracy formed to violate the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited. Sec. 3. For the purposes of this order: (a) The term "person" means an individual or entity; (b) The term "entity" means a partnership, association, trust, joint venture, corporation, group, subgroup, or other organization; and (c) The term "United States person" means any United States citizen, permanent resident alien, entity organized under the laws of the United States or any jurisdiction within the United States (including foreign branches), or any person intheUnited States. Sec. 4. The Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation withthe Secretary of State, is hereby authorized to take such actions, including the promulgation of rules and regulations, and to employ all powers granted to me by IEEPA, as may be necessary to carry out the purposes of this order. The Secretary of the Treasury may redelegate any of these functions to other officers and agencies of the United States Government. All agencies of the United States Government are hereby directed to take all appropriate measures within their authority to carry out the provisions of this order. Sec. 5. This order is not intended to create, nor does itcreate, any right, benefit, or privilege, substantive orprocedural, enforceable at law by a party against the United States, its agencies, officers, employees, or any otherperson. Sec. 6. (a) This order is effective at 12:01eastern standard time on March7, 2003; and (b) This order shall be transmitted to the Congress and published in the Federal Register. GEORGE W. BUSH THE WHITE HOUSE, March 6, 2003. ANNEX 1. Robert Gabriel MUGABE [President of Zimbabwe, born 21 Feb. 1924] 2. Flora BUKA [Minister of State for Land Reform, born 25 Feb. 1968] 3. George CHARAMBA [Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Information, born 4 Apr. 1963] 4. Fortune CHARUMBIRA [Deputy Minister for Local Government, Public Works, and National Housing, born 10 June 1962] 5. Aeneas CHIGWEDERE [Minister of Education, Sports and Culture, born 25 Nov. 1939] 6. Augustine CHIHURI [Police Commissioner, born 10 Mar. 1953] 7. Enos CHIKOWORE [Politburo Secretary for Land and Resettlement, born 17 July 1942] 8. Patrick CHINAMASA [Minister of Justice, born 25 Jan. 1947] 9. Edward CHINDORI-CHININGA [Minister of Mines, born 14 Mar. 1955] 10. Constantine CHIWENGA [Lt. Gen., Commander of the Army, born 25 Aug. 1956] 11. Willard CHIWEWE [Senior Secretary, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, born 19 Mar. 1949] 12. Ignatius CHOMBO [Minister of Local Government, born 1 Aug. 1952] 13. Dumiso DABENGWA [Politburo Senior Committee Member, born 6 Dec. 1939] 14. Nicholas GOCHE [Minister of State for National Security, born 1 Aug. 1946] 15. Rugare GUMBO [Deputy Minister for Home Affairs, born 8 Mar. 1940] 16. Richard HOVE [Politburo Secretary for Economic Affairs, born 23 Sept. 1939] 17. David KARIMANZIRA [Politburo Secretary for Finance, born 25 May 1947] 18. Saviour KASUKUWERE [Deputy-Secretary for Youth Affairs, born 23 Oct. 1970] 19. Christopher KURUNERI [Deputy Minister, Finance and Economic Development, born 4 Apr. 1949] 20. Thenjiwe LESABE [Politburo Secretary for Women's Affairs, born 5 Jan. 1933] 21. Jaison MACHAYA [Deputy Minister for Mines and Mining Development, born 13 June 1952] 22. Joseph MADE [Minister of Agriculture, born 21 Nov. 1954] 23. Edna MADZONGWE [Deputy-Secretary for Production and Labor, born 11 July 1943] 24. Shuvai MAHOFA [Deputy Minister for Youth Development, Gender and Employment Creation, born 4 Apr. 1941] 25. Joshua MALINGA [Deputy-Secretary for Disabled and Disadvantaged, born 28 Apr. 1944] 26. Paul MANGWANA [Minister of State for State Enterprises and Parastatals, born 10 Aug. 1961] 27. Witness MANGWENDE [Minister of Transport and Communications, born 15 Aug. 1946] 28. Elliot MANYIKA [Minister of Youth Development, born 30 July 1955] 29. Kenneth MANYONDA [Deputy Minister for Industry and International Trade, born 10 Aug. 1934] 30. Reuben MARUMAHOKO [Deputy Minister for Energy and Power Development, born 4 Apr. 1948] 31. Angeline MASUKU [Politburo Secretary for Disabled and Disadvantaged Person's Welfare, born 14 Oct. 1936] 32. Sithokozile MATHUTHU [Deputy-Secretary for Transport and Social Welfare] 33. Amos Bernard Muvenga MIDZI [Minister for Energy and Development, born 4 July 1952] 34. Emmerson MNANGAGWA [Parliamentary Speaker, born 15 Sept. 1946] 35. Kembo MOHADI [Minister of Home Affairs, born 15 Nov. 1949] 36. Swithun MOMBESHORA [Minister of Higher Education, born 20 Aug. 1945] 37. Jonathan MOYO [Minister of Information, born 12 Jan. 1957] 38. July MOYO [Minister of Public Service, Labor and Social Welfare, born 7 May 1950] 39. Simon Khaya MOYO [Deputy-Secretary for Legal Affairs, born 1945] 40. Obert MPOFU [Deputy-Secretary for National Security, born 12 Oct. 1951] 41. Joseph MSIKA [Vice President, born 6 Dec. 1923] 42. Olivia MUCHENA [Minister of State for Science and Technology Development, born 18 Aug. 1946] 43. Opah MUCHINGURI [Politburo Secretary for Gender and Culture, born 14 Dec. 1958] 44. Stan MUDENGE [Minister of Foreign Affairs, born 17 Dec. 1948] 45. Grace MUGABE [born 23 July 1965] 46. Sabina MUGABE [Politburo Senior Committee Member, born 14 Oct. 1934] 47. Joyce MUJURU [Minister of Rural Resources and Water, born 15 Apr. 1955] 48. Solomon MUJURU [Politburo Senior Committee Member, born 1 May 1949] 49. Samuel MUMBENGEGWI [Minister of Industry and International Trade, born 20 July 1945] 50. Herbert MURERWA [Minister of Finance, born 31 July 1941] 51. Christopher MUSHOHWE [Deputy Minister, Transport and Communications, born 6 Feb. 1954] 52. Didymus MUTASA [Politburo Secretary for External Relations, born 27 July 1935] 53. Kenneth MUTIWEKUZIVA [Deputy Minister for Small and Medium Enterprise Development, born 27 May 1948] 54. Simon Vengesai MUZENDA [Vice President, born 28 Oct. 1922] 55. Tsitsi MUZENDA [Politburo Senior Committee Member, born 28 Aug. 1922] 56. Elisha MUZONZINI [Director of the Central Intelligence Organization, born 24 June 1957] 57. Abedinico NCUBE [Deputy Minister, Foreign Affairs, born 13 March 1954] 58. Naison NDLOVU [Politburo Secretary for Production and Labor, born 22 Oct. 1930] 59. Sikhanyiso NDLOVU [Deputy-Secretary for Commissariat, born 20 Sept. 1949] 60. Francis NHEMA [Minister of Environment and Tourism, born 17 Apr. 1959] 61. John NKOMO [Minister of State for Special Affairs, born 22 Aug. 1934] 62. Stephen NKOMO [Politburo Senior Committee Member, born 3 Oct. 1926] 63. Sithembiso NYONI [Minister of Small and Medium Enterprises Development, born 20 Sept. 1949] 64. David PARIRENYATWA [Minister of Health and Child Welfare, born 2 Aug. 1950] 65. Selina POTE [Deputy-Secretary for Gender and Culture] 66. Tinos RUSERE [Deputy Minister for Rural Resources and Water Development, born 10 May 1945] 67. Stanley SAKUPWANYA [Deputy-Secretary for Health and Child Welfare] 68. Sidney SEKERAMAYI [Minister of Defense, born 30 Mar. 1944] 69. Nathan SHAMUYARIRA [Politburo Secretary for Information and Publicity, born 29 Sept. 1928] 70. Perence SHIRI [Air Marshal (Air Force), born 11 Jan. 1955] 71. Isaiah SHUMBA [Deputy Minister, Education, Sports and Culture, born 3 Jan. 1949] 72. Absolom SIKOSANA [Politburo Secretary for Youth Affairs] 73. Solomon TAWENGWA [Deputy-Secretary for Finance, born 15 June 1940] 74. Josiah TUNGAMIRAI [Politburo Secretary for Empowerment and Indigenization, born 8 Oct. 1948] 75. Charles UTETE [Cabinet Secretary, born 30 Oct. 1938] 76. Paradzai ZIMONDI [Prisons chief, born 4 Mar. 1947] 77. Vitalis ZVINAVASHE [General, Commander of Zimbabwe Defense Forces, born 27 Sept. 1943] Note: The bracketed identifying information with respect to each person listed in this Annex reflects information currently available and is provided solely to facilitate compliance with this order. Each individual listed in this Annex remains subject to the prohibitions of this order notwithstanding any change in title, position, or affiliation. | |||
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One of Us |
I have heard that because of over hunting by outside outfitters Zimbabwe has pulled their Lion quotas from some Zim outfitters for the year. I was told this by a very reputable outfitter from Zim. There is a very loud outcry by thesee outfitters that have booked lion hunts as you can imagine. It will be interesting to talk to the outfitters from Zim at the convention. | |||
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Was reminded of this All hunters considering buying a hunt on "occupied" farm land that has been sized by the government and handed out to its cronies please be advised that the government has done nothing about the issue of title deeds. only 20 farms in the whole country have actually and legally changed hands. the Holder of the title deeds is the "Approriate Authority" for wildlife in terms of Zim law (Parks and Wild life Act chapter 20:14 Section 59) You have to have the white farmers permission to hunt on private land in the gwaai/matetsi area for the hunt to be legal by the letter of Zim law. Break that and we can forward your name to your government for poaching. We have just won a landmark case in the EU court preventing stolen property being imported to Europe so hopefully we can stop trophies going in there as well | |||
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