Excellent videos Saeed, as always.

I have had the good luck of being on a few elephant hunts over the years. On top of that I have also enjoyed the company of some hunters that are thought of by many as some of the best in their field. Elephants and brain shots has always been a really controversial topic of discussion...some people say that if you hit an elephant in the brain - no matter what his stance is the back legs will collapse first and the front end drops afterward.

Are there any hunters here who have seen different? Has anybody here seen on video or experienced a situation where an elephant was shot in the brain and collapsed front feet first? Its a difficult question because if there were more than one shot fired into the head it would be hard to say which one hit the brain, assuming one of the shots passes very close to the brain but does not puncture the brain cavity?

It appears to me that this subject is one where theory and hearsay isn't quite good enough alone. Theory helps without doubt as ALF stated, but having done the real deed, and seen the reactions oneself counts more IMO. I've read "Pondoro" and other books on elephant for example, but having read those doesn't make me omniknowledgable about elephant. True experiance is needed to help balance the scale!

So just out of curiosity, I, and I'm sure many others, would appreciate if the various posters could tell us how many elephant they have actually shot themselves, and/or have been firsthand witnesses to being shot as an observer/PH/whatever. Of course some of you have done so already in your above posts, for which I thank you.

Erik D.

I guess that my experience is pretty limited when compared to many forum members here, but I guess I probably PH an average of around 2 per year (over the last 10 - 15 years or so)and I've shot just one of my own. (photograph on my website). In recent years, I've also been PH on about 1 or 2 Elephant dart hunts a year.



From what I've seen a correctly placed frontal brain shot will drop them on their chest with rear legs in either of the possible positions and a side brain shot tends to drop them on their side.......but I don't know if that's always the case.



Pretty much anything can happen with a darted Elephant, but if they do fall on their brisket, then you obviously have to get them on their side PDQ.

Erik,

I am not fond of telling too much of personal things, but
here is my answer:

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So just out of curiosity, I, and I'm sure many others, would appreciate if the various posters could tell us how many elephant they have actually shot themselves,

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and/or have been firsthand witnesses to being shot as an observer/PH/whatever.

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Norbert,

I have sent you a PM.

Erik D.

Norbert,
Did you come in to hunt with Rory Muil right after I left this year in late April/early May? I thought he mentioned you were coming?

Kyler

Hej Erik,
I have shot 4 myself and assisted/observed on about 15 or so. When training as a pro-hunter/pro guide in Zim you have to get a certain amount of experience before you can take the exams and the first time I went to the exam I had only observed on one...I came out of that exam looking like the apprentice that I was and made sure that I had a lot more experience before I went back! Second time around I had done a lot more hunting and it went really well!

Cheers

Gentlemen,

Here are a few video clips of brain shot elephants.

Frontal brain shot, with a 375/404 using a 300 grain Barnes monolithic solid. Tnhe second shot you hear was fired by my PH, who went for a heart shot, through the trunk. The bullet turned about 90 degrees, and came out of the side of the trunk, never touching the body of the elephant. He was using a 460 Weatherby, with 500 grain Hornady solid. I was using my 375/404 with 300 grain Barnes Super Solids

Side brain shot with a 416 Rigby Improved, 400 grain Barnes Super Solid

Side brain shot, elephant moving, 375/404, 300 grain Barnes Super Solid

Side brain shot, 375/404, 300 grain brass solid

In my experience, if they are standing still, that is how they fall. Trunk up, back legs buckle, then front legs buckle, but all three within a second or so. If they are running, it is another story.



I find it surprising that many of the big time elephant hunters never described this as the effect of a brain shot. Some go on about the vacant look in their eyes or how the upper rear leg shakes after being brained, which are signs probably more applicable to a running elephant.



After braining an elephant, with the above reaction, I had one PH exclaim to me that the elephant needed another shot, and another wanted to run up to the elephant to make sure it was dead. Their reactions may have been from a desire of better to be sure than sorry. I can hardly second guess an elephant-experienced PH, of which there are fewer and fewer, but those elephants were dead, dead.



All I know for sure is that if there is a heaven and reincarnation is true, I am coming back as an elephant hunter, perpetually of 25 years of age, with a rifle and unlimited ammunition, and the forests are full of big bulls.

Hey Will,
Thanks for your comments. Yeah I reckon even in the face of pretty convincing brain shot indidcations my vote would have been with your PH. If the shot looks good and the elephant seems to be dead, then if you put in an insurance shot he will be as you say - "Dead Dead." And I reckon one thing you can count on as gospel is that there will ALWAYS ALWAYS be an exception to the rule! If the exception hasn't happened yet - it will sometime, and better it happen on somebody elses hunt than yours no??

I have seen a couple of times when elephant were hit close to the brain, but not actually in the brain, their front legs collapsed first. Sometimes there back legs did not collapse at all, and other times the back legs also collapsed, but only after the front end was already down...This is where my train of thought in posting this originated actually as I am thinking as to whether or not one would be able to make a quick decision on whether the animal was hit in the brain, or just close to the brain based on what you see regarding the collapse.

I still reckon though, at the end of the day, or even part way through it...if the animal does go down, regardless of how it falls, put insurance in as quickly and accurately as possible.

Reincarnate as an elephant hunter?? Yeah man! Thats what I'm talking about. I have to say though, I have found myself to be too much in awe of the big beautiful bulls. And dont take this the wrong way...but I have spent many many days following and enjoying the company of some big elephant...and I get a real kick out of it. When it comes to hunting elephant I will take Ele cows ten times in a row before I would take a bull hunt. Those cows are mean old bitches a lot of the time and I have definitelty spent my fair share of time avoiding, eluding and fleeing from them in my days in the bush...so when I get the chance to hunt one of them, or four if opportunity allows, I have absolutely no qualms about getting right into the thick of it!

Maybe you could expand a little on your comment about it being a different story if they are running though. I have not seen many jumbo dropped on the run with a brain shot, but the one which immediately comes to mind dropped exactly as you describe - trunk up, back legs down and front legs crumpling at the end....it was kind of slow motion at the time - I am sure you know what I mean - and as I watched I actually thought that the shot had missed the brain. Replaying the situation later in my head I realised that the first shot had been perfect! But I would still be interested in hearing how your experience has differed...

The back legs go first on a good brain shot. If the front go first the ele might be knocked out cause your close to the brain but that usually wont last long so another shot is needed quickly. I have shot 9 elephants in the past 3 years and I think 5 were perfect, 1 was as charge, another was a mess, and 2 were real close to the brain and knocked out so the follow up was easy. Dosent matter if its side or frontal, if the back legs go first your good.

Shot an ele at about 20 meters facing me. Used a 375 with 300gr Woodleighs. He sat down (rear legs buckled) but it was as if he had a spring in his tail. Right back up and wheeled and ran. Put a shoulder shot as he turned but unfortunately he was not hit hard enough to stop getting across the boundary into the park several k away. Made two observations I have kept.
Don't use a 375 and don't take frontal brain shots. In fact I am reluctant to take ANY brain shot.

BB,



Firstly, I assume you are a native of Sweden, and as such I am amazed at your command of the English language.



The "different story" just means that they just do a nose dive, from my limited experience on two running elephant. From what I have heard and read, this is the typical reaction, but whether they are truly brained may be in question.



I have never knocked out an elephant, where they seemingly came back to life, as other hunters have experienced. I have knocked down two ele cows from missed brain shots but they were never knocked out, and tried to get up immediately.



I am afraid that the more I hunt them the less I know.

My experiences have always shown the same as previous members have posted......but I ALWAYS ask the client to put in an insurance shot asap. I don't care how dead they are, an extra bullet costs a whole lot less than medical fees or a funeral.

A buddy of mine recently told me when he was on an Elephant hunt with a 70 year old man who had told him at the campfire that tomorrow was his 70th birthday and he hoped to shoot his 70th elephant to celebrate it......if he could do that then he would a happy man........the next day they went out, found a big tusker and the old boy dropped it with one shot. As my buddy turned round to congratulate him, he was just in time to see the guy falling over backwards.......He was dead from a heart attack by the time he hit ground!...........still, a great way to go, huh?

If anyone is interested, I've got some Elephant hunts from now till the end of the season for US$850 per day plus a trophy fee of US$4000 per Elephant.......but it's gonna be hot.

I shot 3 elephants this June in ZIM with 480 Woodleigh solids from my 450 No2 double rifle. The first one was a cow shot at 6 yards. She turned her head to look at us and I hit her between the center of the head and the right eye, I was just off her left shoudler. Her back end went riight down and her trunk "flew" up in the air, she fell on her right side, I immediately placed an insurance shot into her shoulder, reloaded and placed another into the center of her chest. The second elephant, also a cow was shot from 12 yards, a side brain shot she did the exact same thing, back end went down, the trunk went high in the air. She fell upright on her brisket. No insurance shots were fired as the brush was very thick and I was unable to aproach because the other elephants from the herd made us back out quickly.
The third a bull was hit with a body and leg shot from 120 yards. I reloaded both bbls. He spun around, saw me and began a charge. As I ran toward him [and he toward me] he fell down, as he got back up I shot him in the head from about 45 to 50 yards which knocked him down. I reloaded. He did not show the "classic" signs of a brain shot. The PH and I ran up to point blank range where I shot 1 round into the back of his head with no reaction. I reloaded, and then shot another round a litle lower [about 3"] into the back of his head. At this shot his back legs reacted drawing into his body. I [and the PH] knew this shot had found the brain.
3 elephants do not make me an expert, still I believe that if I do not see the back end go down and the trunk fly up or a similar reaction on a down elephant at the back legs, I have not hit the brain. I will always take insurance shots [whenever possible], as an elephant is too regal an animal to let suffer, and too dangerous to take chances.
Elephant hunting is the most exciting hunting I have done, there are many more cows and bulls in my future for sure.

PS. My 450 No2 impressed the PH, especially on the body shot on the bull. The words from the PH were "That 450 No2 rocked his world".... Still I yearn for a 577 or a 600.

.

Will,
I suspect today your suspecions are correct..Not a lot of young PHs are very qualified on elephant and/or dangerous game as they simply have not had the opertunity to hunt and shoot them, nor do they have much experience in truth..

A few like Alan Vicent that grew up in safari camp and had a teacher from childhood, have those old skills, can track better than the natives, know the bush back and fourth...but most PHs are farmers that went to school and are trying to make a living and we must applaud them for that, but sometimes listening to the BS gets a little old, guess it's part of the ombiance of Africa and they feel compelled to elucidate, but when one knows he has killed 10 times as many buff or elephants as the PH its a little disturbing to be coached I suppose..Howsomever, such trivial things ceased to bother me some 20 years ago...Todays Africa is a changing scene and tomarrows Africa will be even less...I feel fortunate that I have hunted with and know some of the great PHs of all time, it was an honor to just listen...

Will,
Thank you for the compliment, but I am actually a Zimbabwean. Lived most of my short life there and long to be back every day! Having said that though I must say a lot of the native scandewegians I have met speak better english than I do! Thanks for your input and observations...I havent hunted as many elephant as I would like to...come to think of it I havent hunted as many of anything as I would like to...but - all things being equal, I have a bit of time in reserve to rectify that!

450 No. 2 That is a beautiful calibre....one day...sigh...

Alf - hmmm...interesting words those...i think I get the gist of what you are saying, but my goodness you are obviously well into the orthopaedic analysis of stuff hey...maybe diagrams or a reference book would help me out here

Ray, you sound like you have hunted a lot of animals? How many elephant have you dropped? Just out of interest.

Regarding young hunters coaching you...as mentioned before I have had the good fortune of spending time with some exceptional PH's...and one of the golden phrases that has been passed on for generations from hunter to aspiring hunter...is assume that your co-hunter(assuming you havent hunted with him/her before) is an idiot, until proven otherwise. There are plenty of hunters with all the armchair experience in the world. they have read every book, have checked out every shot placement guide and have got the art of spouting BS down to an art form that borders on scientific! To all intents and purpses from the outset you immediately feel reassured that they know whats going on, until - all of a sardine you find yourself in a less than ideal situation, you look back and realise that things are just not quite how they seemed.

And yes, it might well be that the youngsters are flexing their new found muscles as it were and expanding a bit more on theory & previous experience(however limited it might be)than is really necessary, but really, how else do they put their new found skills into practise if they dont experiment with it. There will certainly be some hunters that will appreciate their input, and there will be others who discard it...but the essence of being a hunting guide I think, is being able to introduce your client to the animal they are hunting, assist them with mock scenarios & try and prepare them as much as possible for the moment when they find themselves staring down the double barrell snotgun of a big thing! All of their experiences, good & bad, will ultimately only go further towards putting the finishing touches on a PH who can not only impart this knowledge in a way that every client appreciates, but also towards building the confidence needed to assess each new hunting client that they meet, and adapt their introductory coaching accoording to the individual. Which I feel is probably the MOST difficult part of working as a PH.

Aside from all of the above, one of the aspects of being on safari that is almost paramount to a great safari, is for me, sitting around the fire at night with a drink and a hot meal in your belly, thinking about tomorrow, reflecting on the past day and enacting or renacting scenarios that we have gone through, or situations that we look forward to participating in.

You say that this kind of experience ceased to bother you some 20 years ago?? I have only been a member on the forums here a very short time, but have seen your reference to this twice...are you sure it doesnt still bother you?? Just a little??

My experience with head shots on elephants: (but other observations are still possible)

a) Frontal shot, hitting the brain central, possibly penetrating up to the neck vertebra:
ele throws up the head and trunk, collapses hind legs first, then the front legs. All legs in a slightly outward turned manner. Death immediatly. The whole body lies in an upright position if the soil is adequate plain.




b) Side brain shots can do the same, eventually angled from behind the ear.


c) Head shots (frontal and side) which hit the outer region of the brain or misses the brain a fraction of an inch causes little movement mostly with the front legs (e.g. turning around the hind legs), then the ele collapses sideways. Death happens, depending on the wounding, in a time span of seconds to several minutes. My record was 25 minutes! This is the situation, where often the ele comes up again and can go away and the reason for the "insurance shot", because especially the older calibers suffer from sufficient penetration.

As long as I can see the laying ele I do no second shot until I can do it from nearby. But I am aware to shoot if the ele will stand up. It is time enough for a good second shot.

More on ele headshots. and shot placement.

Baboonbreeder,

As always, your posts are well writen, interesting and informative. Keep them coming!

Erik D.

Norbert,

You fink! I come in after your hunt to find you have killed all my elephants. Heard there was a cow and bull involved. Congratulations, anyway.

.

Huh? I assume you are ragging on me for slating an appy as being an inexperienced hunter. Well, they are. It is a heck of a responsibility being a PH. And it is a tough business to break into, as every new one soon learns.



The good ones survive and the others fade, as in any other endeavor.



[the appy I hunted with recently didn't even have as ash bag/bottle, so I gave him mine].