Before all you big bore and double rifle nuts jump all over me let me explain my question.

In 2004 I am off to Botswana for elephant and upon asking my PH via e-mail about recommended calibers etc. he without hesitation listed the 375 H&H as his #1 choice.

I personally like and have used the 375 quite a lot here in AK and in Africa with good results but I never really have thought of it as an elephant round.

Do any of you gentleman have any experience with the 375 on game larger than buffalo???

No problem hunting elephant with a .375 H&H, provided a good shot placement and a good solid bullet. A PH recommends it, because a proper handled .375 is better than a flinching client with a bigger calibre. And if the first timer on elephant uses the heart/lung shot, it can be a one shot kill.

Having never shot an elephant, I am hesistant to reply . . . but I have been to Africa a few times (once unsuccessfully hunting elephant) and most PH's are going to recommend a .375 for a client because that is the biggest rifle that most poeple can shoot well. With proper solids, it is a fine rifle for the task but not a "stopper". But hey, that doesn't matter though because that is why you have a PH!
The only real criticism I have read of the .375 for a client was written by Robertson in "The Perfect Shot" (a book you should purchase if you have never been to Africa) in which he made the assertion that the optimal speed for a big game rifle is 2400 FPS and the .375 exceeds this by some 150-200 FPS. Robertson credited some very unusual bullet behavior to this little bit of extra speed.
I would take your PH's advice and go with the .375 and good monolithic solids unless you are used to heavy recoiling rifles at which point you might jump up a bit to the .416 (either Rem. Mag. or Rigby but then that is a whole other debate) .

Good luck and Best Regards,

JohnTheGreek

Norbert,

We posted at the same time . . . looks like great minds think alike eh!

JohnTheGreek

As everyone knows with dangerous game, the bigger the better.

The 375 is adequate for Elephant, not preferred, but adequate. As Norbert suggests, The reason ph's probably recommend it is because few people can competently shoot the really big bore guns accurately.

Would I shoot an Elephant with a 375? Yes, if I could not shoot a larger bore competently.

John, looks like we posted at the same time too.

I agree fully with what you say as well.

It worked great for me, so good infact when I leave again nexted month thats what I'm taking. I can shoot larger stuff just as good as my 375's,but I'm taking 2 guns this year my 375 and my 375 . I'm leaving the 450 Dakota 577 t-rex home with a few others. I think taking 2 guns that are the same caliber is a good idea in case there is a problem with one of them. But thats another topic.

I've never shot an elephant, but I have video of a Bull from about 10 yds. When he wheeled around, I felt naked with no rifle. I would personally take my 416 Rem.

Mark

"Before all you big bore and double rifle nuts jump all over me let me explain my question."

No on topic, but if this sentence was due to my post on your other topic, I apoligise. Up at 3-4am to make a couple of phone calls to Africa, my snese of humour was keen and my judgement was lacking. Yes it was a joke as I explained in answer to your PM.

Welcome to the board.

*****

On topic, no personal experience but Harry Manners used a 375 to professionally hunt almost all of his ele.

Good luck and let us know all about it when you return.

I suppose for elephant bigger is always better but if you have a 375 and shoot it well use it. The only one I have shot so far was with a 470 but the PH I hunted with thought a 375 was fine. Just use good solids.

BigB

As an aside to this conversation . . . Didn't Jack O'Connors wife take her elephant with a .30-06 and 220 grain solids? Now these, obviously, werent even monolithics. With today's Barnes solids, except for the fact that it would be illegal, this is even a more acceptable option for the ultra recoil shy.
This one incident while not something I would advise, illustrates that, if you have the necessary penetration with the round and bullet combination and can shoot straight, it matters very little how big the hole is in the front or side of the great beasts skull.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Mark,
Long time no talky.

When your standing 25 yards from a bull elephant
it is then that you properly realize just how big they really are. You look at your rifle and look back at the elephant and you wonder if you have enough gun. And the answer is (mentally) no gun is big enough! But in reality, the .375 is an adequete caliber and as many have said here use a good solid bullet. As Nitro mentioned, get a copy of Harry Manners book, Kambaku! This guy did some serious elephant hunting and as I recall he shot 10 at ONE TIME in a swamp. I have the book here in my office if you want to borrow it. When I have some more time I'll write a brief story on the events of one of my elephant hunts that will amaze most with what can happen to bullets..........(no, this is not the story I wrote about the other day on the cow elephant boondoogle. Have a great hunt Mark

PS I'm suprised you have not had many hits on the moose caribou / elk deer trade. That was a great bull you got for Shawn last year. I'll keep my ears open. Would you be happy with a 250 - 300 class bull? Mule deer no problem

I have not hunted elephant, but I did shoot my cape buffalo last year with a .375H&H using 300 grain Swift A-Frames & Barnes monolithic solids at 2,525 fps.

After hitting the buffalo through the lungs with the Swift A-Frame, I then put a solid through the lungs and two more solids through both shoulders. The Barnes solids went right through both shoulder bones, left .375" exit holes and are probably still going! Those things penetrated a lot of tough buffalo bone in a perfectly straight line and obviously had energy to spare.

I bet the 300 grain Barnes bullets at 2,500 +/- fps would absolutely get to an elephants vitals (brain, lungs, heart, etc.) if you aim in the correct place. Shot placement is everything.

Tim

Woodleigh also make a 350 gr .375 projectile which may overcome the issue of velcoities above 2400 fps. Should be an excellent penetrator as well.

One of our forum member, RancherJack, has his elephant skull in his game room. He dropped his elephant with one brainer from his .375.

When he shows you his trophy, he likes to slide a brass cleaning rod through the hole to show you how straight the bullet path was.

If you want to accept this as an example, I think your .375 will be just fine, especially with a good quality solid.

Tony Sanchez-Arino, arguably the most successful elephant hunter of the post WWII era, swears by the 375 H&H for elephants. Nuff said! jorge

Guys,
I just wanted to know is a 286 grain solid bullet by PMP good for elephant.

Thanks in advance

Hamdeni

Someone should set this up as a monthly question, automatically posted.

Norbert has a larger head count than I, but HE doesn't use a .375!!

Again, Manners got at least one of his trackers killed using a .375.

PH's recommend .375's because it is in their handbook somewhere.

If you are happy letting your PH nail your elephant after the first shot, a .375 is fine.

Sanchez has not stayed at my house, but if you read his book he scoofs at the .375. He also reads from the same "client is okay with a .375"
handbook.

Pick the biggest caliber you can handle and go up one notch.

Will

Come the day that I ever shoot an elephant, I'm taking the .450 Rigby, mostly because I've got one! It took some getting used to at the range but I was amazed that it was easier to manage than I feared.

If you shoot that .375 a lot up in the North, than a Class II like a .416 or a hot-loaded .404 will be snap. After my .450, the .375 seemed like a popgun so somewhere in between should be fine. I personally believe that the reason PH's recommend the .375 is that most of their clients are deer hunters who haven't taken the time to learn to shoot a boomer. If your idea of a reg'lar huntin' gun is a .375 then figure that's your 30'06 and the equivalent of a .375 for you is a .416 . . . at least!

/

Jorge,
Tony Sanchez-Arino used the .416 Rigby for most of his career. Lately he seems to have switched to a Harald Wolf variant of the 500 Jeffery. Tony would say some good things about the .375 H&H, but he would "swear" by the .416 Rigby if he swore by anything.

Harry Manners is the famous elephant hunter who "swore" by the .375 H&H, and in a Winchester Model 70 at that.

I consider the 9.3x62, 375 H&H as good as any caliber for shooting elephant in the brain..They will do the job and the size of the hole in the brain is of no consequence, it is immediately terminal...

A 800 N.E. near the brain will not knock an elephant out IMO, I think that is and always has been bull hockey...the bullet must at least touch the brain enough to effect it.

If you intend to heart/lung shoot an elephant, and many do these days then I suggest a 458 Lott or a 505 Gibbs with GS FN solids...

I shot one bull elephant with a 375 and a PMP solid. Brain shot = dead elephant.

Use what you are realistically comfortable with. Key word there is "realistically". When I first started shooting a .375 H&H it seemed really big. Now, after a total of about 200 shots and 30 African critters with it later, it doesn't seem so big. I've also watched a .375 and a .416 hitting a wounded buffalo several times. There was noticably more "impact" with the .416 Remington.

IF I get to hunt an elephant again, it will be with a .416 or a .458 Lott.

[ 03-17-2003, 08:45: Message edited by: Matt Norman ]

I believe a .375 H&H is sufficient for a CLIENT to use on an Elephant. Certainly I would prefer a .375 H&H that he in confident with, to a larger calibre that he is not confident with.

I don't believe however that a .375 H&H is sufficient rifle for a P.H.

But the most important thing of all is shot placement followed by bullet construction.

Cheers

Hey Ray,

A shot close to the brain really will knock an elephant out. I've done it, but not on purpose.

There is an article in the latest issue of Magnum about how to kill elephants with a .22 short.

I don't need no stinking .375!!

Will

Like Alf said those 286 grain monometal bullets from pmp are sure good on penetration.

I wouldn't hesitate to take an elephant with those. They are longer then your normal FMJ and is sure inexpensive. No matter what you will end up using it all comes down to shot placement. And with the low recoil of the 375 you have no excuse.

I'm just not sure if it would work that great on a shoulder heart and lung shot ? (Any exprecien e anyone ?) But I'm sure it would great on brain shots. Enough elephant has been shot with the 375 in Africa to have proven itself. Awesome penetration and realbility how many other calibers were based on the 375 H&H. I quess all of you know by now that I love my "maggie" it has done me great with the shooting test on the ph school I scored second highest and the biggest other calibre there was a 30-06.

With enough practise and confindence I don't see any hassles using te 375 H&H for elephnat. BUt if I get to take out clients on a regular basis for elephant I will defenitely invest some money in a bigger calibre. For stopping power.

This bull went down with one frontal brain shot from a 375 H&H. I'm with Ray on this one, if your going to poke a hole in his brain the 375 works great.

I've been on three elephant hunts - once as the hunter and twice as the video cameraman. Of the three elephants I've seen shot one was taken with the .375 H&H and was, in fact, a very exciting event as this elephant (a crop raider that had been previously wounded) charged us without hesitation. Both my hunting partner (Darryl Higgins of Kilcoy, Queensland, Australia) and our PH (Charlie Stanton, Mbalabala Safaris, Zimbabwe) were armed with .375s and three quick solids in the forehead quickly ended the charge (this was very slick shooting), turned the elephant and as he was going down, two more quick shots into the heart/lung area, ended the whole affair (which, through the video viewfinder, had my undivided attention - my whole world was crammed into that tiny field of view and this angry elephant took up a huge proportion of it!!!)

....but I digress. Overall, this event demonstrated to me that the .375 can, and will, do the job on elephant provided you use good projectiles and place your shots correctly.

[ 03-17-2003, 17:02: Message edited by: BwanaBob ]

Is the .375 H&H adequate for elephant. I dare say tens of thousands have been done in by the 300 solid over the past 8 decades. I've used it on elephant myself however, if you're hunting is in the jungle rather than savanah I would prefer something a bit bigger. There's quite a difference between seeing an whole elephant 30 or 40 yards away and seeing a leg and an ear 3 yards away. BTW, the 146 pounder taken in Teppi back in 1987 was taken with a .375 H&H double.
Rich Elliott

A customer of mine dropped this cow in a full charge with a 375 H&H.

I would think of the 375 on ellie the same as I would think of a 30-06 on elk: it will work out fine most of the time.

Many PH's recommend the lighter recoiling cartridges because they see too many clients who flinch and mess up the shot. They may also recommend less expensive rifles like the model 70 so that you have money left over for trophy fees.

I love this topic.

Shhhh.... dont you know.... many people dont want to believe the 375H&H is enough.

IMHO a person can't answer this question until they have answered the more fundamental question,
that being whether or not you are going to allow
the PH to shoot either with you or immediately
after you. If the PH is allowed to shoot, then I
would feel comfortable with a 375. If you are like
me and don't allow the PH to shoot (unless its a
life threatening situation) then
I would not feel comfortable with a 375.
No matter how good a shot you (this is a rhetorical "you") are, shit happens, ie, the ele moves its head just as you shoot, you're tired and miss the brain just slightly, etc. Then you are talking about bone-breaking follow-up shots.
My experience is limited relative to a lot of guys who post here, but I think my experiences are indicative of what can happen.
I've shot 3 tuskless. All three were brain shots
and all three went down immediately. However, 2 GOT UP as if nothing had happened. In the first case, the herd ran away from us so I was able to
make an easy heart-lung shot and she expired within 20 yards. This was with a 416 rem mag. The
PH said she tilted her head just as I fired and this accounted for the measly few inches I missed
the brain. However, the measly few inches meant all the difference in the world!
The second case was in the middle of a herd. I was hot, tired, worn-out and OVERCONFIDENT because it was only 15 yards side-on and I was
shooting a 450 Dakota. I shot two inches low, down she went, the herd charged and we had to run
for cover. In the mean time, she was up and running over a hill about 30-40 yards away. Now, the only shot I had was for hip bones as she was
quartering slightly and her heart-lung was covered by brush. Here, to my way of thinking, you have to have as much bone-crunching firepower as you can get. Could a 375 handle this? I don't
know because I haven't done it, but I do know that in this situation and many like it, bigger is better. In this case, the 500 gr shattered her
hip bone and down she went.
On a somewhat humorous note (at least to me) ele
are just so DAMN BIG when you are up close in the
jesse that anything you carry all of a sudden feels like a pea shooter! I must admit I truly love it!

Good hunting
Wes

Hey Mark,

Here are Brian Marsh's thoughts on the subject.

http://www.african-hunter.com/375_on_elephant.htm

Cheers,

Alan

Gentalmen, the old 375 H&H, with a proper solid, will absolutely do things that defy all logic! I'm no Elephant hunter, haveing only been on two ele hunts, as a back up, for a friend, but I am a very well trained 375 H&H shooter. I say if, as Ray says, you are looking to stick a 300, or 350 gr solid into the brain of timbo, the 375 H&H will put it there for you, if you can shoot! It is no slouch at hitting that big old heart either, as long as you stay off that big old shoulder bone. I have shot the 375 H&H, with 300 gr bullets so much, it seems like a 243Win to me, and I can put the solid where I want it, and as someone already said, that is the key, when hunting Elephant, no matter what you use. If you don't do it right, with any rifle, you're going to have a long walk to finish the job! All opinion, however, But I think the PH is right, and so is Wendell, there is a lot of carved ivory on the curio shelves of the world, that was collected with a 375 H&H.

As one who has hunted elephant a couple days as a opportunity in the Selous (never shot) and stalked in close each time to glance the mandated ivory size, I would feel undergunned with a .375. The elephant are enormous and the tyro can use all the edge he can get.
I would opt for something in the 400 cal range, not a .458, or even better a .500, even if the PH has a stopper.

Elephant are in my future, but I would take a 450 or 500 and practice off-hand until there was conplete confidence in my shooting at 40-70 yards. If a PH showed up with a .375 H&H, I would be nervous if he was not Harry Manners.

What helps me is that my large bore rifles are heavy with good recoil pads and well balanced. Carrying a heavy rifle has never been a problem for me, as loosing 10-15 lbs could easily make up this difference.

Never put too much stock in the extradinary feats of professional riflemen as a model for me to follow. As Clint says," A man has to know his limitations". Example, there are riflemen who can shoot trap, while I must use a shot gun and I'm a trap shooter. So practice with what is the largest caliber within your capability, forget the PH. He'll come around when you shoot 2 inch groups offhand at 50 yards with your 416 Rigby .

pmm

DWS,

Yeah, all this talk is cheap. Until you've been knee deep in eles, the .375 is more than enough gun. Once you've been there, there is no such thing as too much gun.

You might want to reconsider what happened to the 2 that got up. It is relatively easy to knock one down with a head shot close to the brain but brained eles don't get up. Nothing personal in this comment.

Like you said, when shit happens, you better be carrying the big stick.

Will

[ 03-18-2003, 03:00: Message edited by: Will ]

I booked my first elephant hunt before I bought the rifle for it so I was able to discuss caliber selection with the PH before purchasing a rifle. A 416 was discussed but he thought if I could stand the added recoil and ammo cost a 458 Lott or 470 double would be better. I chose the 470 double for the quick second shot and because I listened to all on this board about the advantages of a double. The PH shoots a 500 A Square so he is a proponent of enough gun.

He did say if my wife wants to shoot an elephant a 375 will suffice but is not his first choice. I have hunted with 3 Ph's so far in elephant country and all carried a 458 on up.

BigB

Will

Your point is exactly correct and that is what I
was trying to say. I clearly MISSED the brain and
even though I was very close to it, close doesn't
count. Hence, the need for as large a caliber as
possible for follow-up shots.
I do hope I get "knee deep in eles", as you put it, starting at sunrise on April 8!

Wes