OK guys,

Let's hear what pointers you think can be used to age Mr Simba?

I'll post the pointers I use in a few hours time.

counted the candles on their birthday cake

Over all length of his hair, if maned...
Body condition and mass and muscle and scars
No pink nose
Mature look...

Just ordered from Safari press Aging the African lion.. Will have all answers in about a week..

Mike

My best pointer was when my PH told me to shoot. And that was after we passed on another male old enough to shoot.



Dutch

Shakari,

I'll take a crack at it:

1. Absent or minimal leg spots.
2. Long mane hairs. No Mohawk with the mane filling in around the ears and on the shoulder region.
3. Black or mostly black nose.
4. Significant facial scarring.
5. Spotty facial hair and a droopy mouth.
6. Body language.
7. Tooth wear.
8. Loss or fading of dark markings on rear legs.

Brett

OK, looks like I might get dragged down to the pub tonight, so thought I’d do this a bit earlier than expected. I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

The pointers I use to age a Lion are as follows:

1. Black nose...... this theory was proposed by Prof Craig Packer. Whilst I broadly agree with the theory, I do believe it should only be used as a guide and not as a firm rule. I personally believe the nose pigmentation vary from area to area. As an example, watch a few Lion programmes on TV and note how many cubs have black noses. It’s also not so easy in the real world to get a good look at a Lion’s bugle when you’re hunting it, not least because even if you can see it, it’s often covered in dirt, or blood etc and as Lion’s fight a lot, they get scratched and sometimes they get scratched on the nose. As those wounds are in the healing process, the wound turns pink for a while.............. which could be misleading.

2. Mane development: When a male Lion is in adolescence, he has an ‘Elvis’ haircut and as he gets older the forehead hair slowly fills in and the mane develops around the neck and then spreads down the back etc...... all you gotta do is look at a few pics to see how it develops. Bear in mind that mane development varies from area to area somewhat.

3. Head shape: As he gets older, the head and muzzle broadens out dramatically. A young Lion will have a narrow face and often slightly slanted eyes. The wider the head the older the Lion.

4. Musculature: The older he is, the heavier the musculature (esp) at the front end.

5. Body language/ behaviour: All Lions are arrogant, but a mature male is very arrogant. Younger males will generally be slightly more nervous/subservient..... esp around other males.

6. Markings: Younger animals of both sexes have spots and as males fight a lot, the older the Lion (usually) the heavier the scarring.
A quick note on hunting them. Until relatively recently it was thought that one shouldn’t ever take a pride holding male. More recent opinion is that one can take pride holders, but only if there are no dependent young. Ideally, if this is the case, they will be 2 up and coming males waiting in the wings to take the pride over and you’ll try to take both the current pride holders out on a ‘rolling road’ basis. That is one after the other in fairly quick succession. (Research shows that prides are most commonly held by 2 Lions)

Anyway, hope I’ve remembered everything in these quick notes and hope my pointers might be of help to someone. I guess I should also point out that in Africa, one should never say never and never say always. There are a few occasions when the rules have to go out of the window because of practicalities. For example, I’ve had one or two occasions over the years when I’ve been forced to shoot pride holders and not had a choice in the matter and one other when I’ve had to shoot a Lion that was really too young to be shot...... but again, I didn’t have a choice in the matter........ and whilst I don’t take pleasure in those incidents, I’m not ashamed of them either.

quote:

Posted 16 January 2009 22:34 Hide Post
OK, looks like I might get dragged down to the pub tonight,

kick and screaming no doubt

Here's an old 'un for you:



Slightly younger:



Brett,

You gotta get this close to check it's teeth!

Another indicator that hasn't been mentioned here is the dorsal spine is more 'prominent" (knuckle effect) on older males, especially when lying down.

Tooth coloration on canines and incisors is another one. They get more "yellow" in older males. these can be viewed when a lion is yawning or panting.

I have a question.

Say you shoot a lion that the PH said to shoot.

Now its dead so how do you know for sure how old it is? Do you section a tooth or?

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:

quote:

Posted 16 January 2009 22:34 Hide Post
OK, looks like I might get dragged down to the pub tonight,

kick and screaming no doubt

I'm sure someone twisted his arm. That or his wife got tired of him and kicked him out.

Brett

Palmer,

Again there is no definitive way to know the exact age even post mortem. What TGT does is the x-ray the 1st premolar (Little tooth after the upper canine) and analyzi the pulp cavity. This narrows with age dramatically until around 5 years of age. Thereafter the differences are very slight but the cavity never completly closes. However, examining a dead lion allows you to look at indicators such as tooth wear on their molars which otherwise one couldn't form a distance. Usually a close detailed examination allows one to confirm whether or not they were "close enough" to the 6 age category. The real old lions, 8 and over, are rarely mistakeable for 5 or 6 year old. The age gap 5-6 is the most difficult to estimate and that is part of the whole problem. Rather err on the side of caution........

Bwanamich

I know you can take the 1st premolar and take a cross section on of it on a ungulate (horned and antlered animals) count the growth rings and get accurate age. So, you are saying this cannot be done in cats. So, that is why you have a difficult time aging lions using teeth. Learn something new every day.

Brooks,
You can do the same with lion but normally using the canine rather than the premolar which is very small. Obviously that is not preferable as it would damage the trophy. However, even with the canine, the age estimation is not accurate. There is a scientific article exactly on that subject which i read several years ago so cannot remember the details. I think it was to nearest 1 year??

I think all this is too theoretical.

If I ever get to hunt lions I'm gonna shoot the one the PH says to shoot.

Here is an example ofthe "knuckle effect" to which Bwanamitch was refering. This lion was aged at 11 years old according to his dental work.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I think all this is too theoretical.

If I ever get to hunt lions I'm gonna shoot the one the PH says to shoot.

Indy,
In "theory" you are correct! Trust your PH. However, it is obvious from what one can see everywhere that too mzany PH's either do not apply any restriction, don't care or don't know. In such a situation, the client should know what to expect and make it clear to their Ph what their expectation should be ofr a trophy lion hunt.

Bwanamich,

That sounds good, but I'll tell you something.

I went elephant hunting. We came up with an elephant. It was huge. It tore down branches. It had "big" tusks. Were they 20, 30, 50 60 pounds? How the heck should I know. the PH said, "That's a good elephant. shoot it." so I did.

I went buffalo hunting. I practically memorized Kevin Robertson's book before I went, so I would know what part of the buff to shoot at. The buff was standing in the shade just before it got dark. It was big and black. All I could see was it's big black shape, and one horn sticking out to the side as it looked at us. The PH said, "Take him," So I did.

The time to have this conversation about immature game with the PH is before the hunt starts. When the PH says shoot, I shoot.