Winchester is now listing a 458 Winchester Mag load using the new Nosler 500 grain solid bullet. Published velocity is listed at 2,240 fps.! Nice competition for the Hornady high energy load.

465H&H

I read in one of the African rags, that the High Energy loads were causing some problems?? I don't find that surprising, but I don't know as I have not shot the .458 in some time.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I read in one of the African rags, that the High Energy loads were causing some problems?? I don't find that surprising, but I don't know as I have not shot the .458 in some time.

More bullshit from the "king of africa."

Ray, you don't know now and never did regardless of your self anointed experience, so just don't post.

JPK

FWIW, I recently bought a box of Hornady's Heavy Mag .458 Win Mag ammo that was way too hot for my rifle, two blown primers in the first dozen rounds ...not going to be shooting any more of that. But to be fair to Hornady, my rifle has a custom barrel and therefore might have a tight chamber contributing to higher pressures.

I dont know about the new loading being too hot. I do know I prefer loading 450 grn bullets in my 458WM. Decent SD, plenty of knockdown power and velocity with no compressed loads. Also no problem with high temps.

JPK,
Your post was pretty uncalled for, I think these forums are for all of our opinnions, as opposed to yours. I came back an edited my original post btw..But the bottom line is your post was rude and uncalled for..I have as much right to post here as you do...

I know you have a burr in your butt about me, and thats fine as I don't really care, but lets keep it civil or not post to each other.

JPK, I enjoy reading different posting from various people quite a lot and can only speak for myself. It would be much preferred if personal attacks could be refrained from. It's one thing to disagree with something a person posts but quite another to adhominem attacks.

quote:

Originally posted by wrenchmaster:
JPK, I enjoy reading different posting from various people quite a lot and can only speak for myself. It would be much preferred if personal attacks could be refrained from. It's one thing to disagree with something a person posts but quite another to adhominem attacks.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
JPK,
Your post was pretty uncalled for, I think these forums are for all of our opinnions, as opposed to yours. I came back an edited my original post btw..But the bottom line is your post was rude and uncalled for..I have as much right to post here as you do...

I know you have a burr in your butt about me, and thats fine as I don't really care, but lets keep it civil or not post to each other.

Ray,

I don't think my post was uncalled for, though perhaps too harsh. Again, you post both in contradiction of your prior post and on a topic on which you (now, after edit) ackonwlege you have no current information.

Post as you like, of course, but when you start to run at the uh, er, uh, fingers, and post authorativly about what you have no knowledge, expect the reubutal to be quite frank.

You now acknowledge that, in this post, re the 458wm, you don't know what you're talking about. Wasn't that way originally.

Try the Winchester load, geez, just try the 458wm, and then report from a position of actual knowlwdge and experience and not BS.

Others,

Sorry, the my earlier post was probably too personally harsh, but I have limited patience for BS.

Do a search of Ray's prior post regarding both the 458wm and the 470 and I suspect you will see why.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Winchester is now listing a 458 Winchester Mag load using the new Nosler 500 grain solid bullet. Published velocity is listed at 2,240 fps.! Nice competition for the Hornady high energy load.

465H&H

465H&H, Do you, or anyone for that matter, know what the claimed pressure is to get 2240 fps with a 500 grain bullet from a standard .458wm? I had, long ago, before I bought a .458 Lott, a .458wm and tried reloading with various powders available in South Africa at the time. Never got near the magic numbers without what I considered excessive pressure [and although i know that it is pressure that makes the bullet go fast, Iwas and still am very scared of blowing up 'another' rifle] signs.

No doubt a 500 gr. .458 diam bullet starting at 2240 fps will be more than enough to handle most DG situations!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

/

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
JPK,
Your post was pretty uncalled for, I think these forums are for all of our opinnions, as opposed to yours. I came back an edited my original post btw..But the bottom line is your post was rude and uncalled for..I have as much right to post here as you do...

I know you have a burr in your butt about me, and thats fine as I don't really care, but lets keep it civil or not post to each other.

Ah, the new and improved Ray! There are many of us here who remember very well your old persona, guy, and I suspect few of the many who you mugged time and time again back then are going to cut you any slack. Ever. You made your bed. Suck it up.

I'm not sure that I follow how the CIP standard relates an energy value to a pressure value. As any of us who have handloaded will well know, observed pressure can alter hugely load to load while energy stays much the same. I'm sure that they're coming from the theory that pressure must be a constant if energy is likewise which while true in physics ignores the pressure curve of a load which is critical to load development & observed pressure signs. Sorry if that sounds like gibberish , I know what I mean As Hornady have demonstrated recently with cunning loading it is possible to be seen to defy the laws of physics in this respect & I've no doubt that Winchester has been working on doing much the same. Many years ago, Jack Lott published an article in which he stated that original 458 Win velocity was easily achievable with Re7. A mate has a letter from him confirming this. It would be nice to think that some progress had been made in the interim.
Steve

Shinzo,

I thought that was the idea behind progressive, slow burning powder. I don't know what I'm talking about but to get the same velocity at a lower peak pressure that pressure has to occur over a longer time.

Super slow powder? Duplex loads? Triplex loads?

Somebody "just" needs to do the pressure testing to find out.

I volunteer you!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I read in one of the African rags, that the High Energy loads were causing some problems?? I don't find that surprising, but I don't know as I have not shot the .458 in some time.

More bullshit from the "king of africa."

Ray, you don't know now and never did regardless of your self anointed experience, so just don't post.

JPK

This is the sort of attitude we can all do without.

Ray has as much right to state his opinion as anyone else.

If your experience is different than his, go ahead and state it, without insulting him, or anyone else for that matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Shinzo,

I thought that was the idea behind progressive, slow burning powder. I don't know what I'm talking about but to get the same velocity at a lower peak pressure that pressure has to occur over a longer time.

Super slow powder? Duplex loads? Triplex loads?

Somebody "just" needs to do the pressure testing to find out.

I volunteer you!

I might come across as a bit silly but I'm not THAT silly ! Actually I'd love to have the time & resources but I'll leave it to the silly bu99ers in white coats.
Steve

Tried out my 458WM for the first time in some really hot weather.I shot full power loads and fired from a hot barrel,emptying out the mag and didn't get any malfunction or bolt stickiness.It can get really hot and humid here in Quebec.It is hotter here at 30 than it is in drier countries at 50 celcius.I have yet to check the primer pockets for expansion,but I suspect there may be.Some rounds ran the bullet at 2200fps.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It is hotter here at 30 than it is in drier countries at 50 celcius.

Really? Is it also colder at 0 than in other places at -10?

I'd rather be out in -10 all day they than a few minutes in 0 water.

I agree with Alf's post on the .458 enhanced ammo, at least for now...

IMO the 458 was a poorly designed round from the get go, it never has had enough powder capacity and it came about in a time with the short magnum was king of the hill, the 338, the 264, the 7 mag et. al. It just didn't work with the .458.

If you do a search as JPK suggested you will find no contradictions unless you take my posts out of context. I agree with some few modern powders you can make the .458 shoot at 2000 and perhaps 2100 FPS and its good to go..I have never denied that.

I did read in one of the magazines that the enhanced ammo was giving some PHs problems and passed that on and I admitted I had no first hand knowledge and I don't see that as bull shit, rather something one might be interested to know if you intended to use that load on dangerous game.

I won't toss gasoline on JPKs fire, but I didn't and don't percieve my opinnion or anyone elses opinnion on a rifles caliber as earth shaking under any circumstances. I see these comments as food for thought and something that one should look into if they are going to use Africa and hunt DG..

If, in fact, these enhanced loads are legitamate in their claim and if they do not cause problems in the summer heat, then they are a boon to the caliber.

If this is "making my bed" then why do we post on these forums.

It doesn't seem very likely that Hornady or Winchester would knowingly produce ammo that was over SAAMI pressure limits. The liability issues would be huge. I don't know what barrel lengths were used to develop these velocities for either company. The original 458 Win load was developed in a 26" test barrel. I believe that the new standard (post 1983) is to use a 24" test barrel.

Also I would appreciate that any personal attacks occur some where else other than my thread. Thanks!

465H&H

Last summer I found, while working up .458 Winchester loads, that getting 2200 fps (chronographed) from a Model 70 with a 23" barrel using 500 grain Barnes solids was no problem. I did not measure pressure but I have been reloading for 45 years and there did not seem to be any signs of high pressure. I did not try for more velocity, or try more than two powders. Eventually I settled on loads using 450 grain bullets at 2250 but that's another story.

So I think it is highly plausible that an ammunition company could get 2250 with a 500 grain bullet without excessive pressure.

It's great to see these new loadings coming out for DG calibers, but the Winchester stuff is still pretty pricey for a box of 20 ($150, IIRC). The Hornady ammo still leads the way with the value for dollar.

From practical usage and reloading we collectively know that different rifles with the same batch of loaded ammunition will give different ballistics results. I’ve read, though I don’t firsthand knowledge, that “tight-target style†chamber dimensions will result in higher pressure levels than “standard style†chamber dimensions with the same batch of loaded ammunition especially in larger caliber and capacity cartridges.

I do understand that CIP and SAAMI specifications take into account these manufacturing variances when establishing the maximum allowable pressure levels assures that minimum specification chambers and barrels do not result in dangerously high pressure levels when firing SAAMI maximum specification ammunition. I also understand that maximum specification chambers and barrels when firing SAAMI maximum specification ammunition will result in lower ballistics performance.

This is redundant but, from my perception, we should definitely expect to have different ballistics results from different rifles utilizing the same batch of ammunition unless the rifles’ chambers and barrels have been held very tightly to the identical level of SAAMI specifications; e.g., minimum, maximum, or somewhere in between, as to be “identical†otherwise while it is somewhat an apples to apples comparison it is not the same variety, size, etc. of an apple!

My biggest complaint regarding SAAMI specification’s is that, unlike the current CIP standards publications, the relating chamber dimensions are not typically published concurrent with the cartridge dimensions. Oh well, this could lead to a dull world and ruin our main pastime as tinkers, always looking for a “leg up†with our rifle/cartridge chambering, as well as internet opiners.

Hornady should be able to meet their published 458 WM ballistic levels while maintaining SAAMI pressure levels with the special powder mixes that they have available. Hodgdon was able to match and exceed Hornady’s special 375 Ruger loadings with their available reloading powders while maintaining SAAMI pressure levels. I see no reason to presume that Winchester would be unable to meet their published ballistics also while staying within SAAMI pressure levels also. The caveats being that all are reaching these published ballistics levels utilizing their SAAMI specification pressure test barrel assemblies.

Sorry for the length…guess today was my day to opine!

I just received the following e-mail from Winchester ammo. They load to 60,000 psi. Here is a quote on their velocity figures.

A final note. You quoted our velocity for this load at 2,250 fps. The number we have quoted in our 2008 catalog is 2,240 fps. Unfortunately, both are incorrect. The real number for our 500g 458 WM is 2,100 fps. We have to print catalogs sometimes way ahead of our development cycle and at the time we printed the 2008 catalog it looked like we would be able to get the 2,240 fps velocity. As we continued our load development we found that we could not consistently repeat this number. If everything was just right we could get it but we could not get it on a day in day out basis. So, we made the decision to go with what we could actually get every day. Velocity and trajectory are listed on every box of Safari ammo we make and the correct ballistics are listed on the packaging of the 458. We will correct the catalog in 2009, I apologize for this error.

Ray,
The 458 was the FIRST short magnum WW came to market with...it created the short magnum mania back then! It was followed by the 338, 264, 7mm Rem and 300Win mags. I think the short case did okay for the smaller bores but completely agree with you on the 458. Just not enough case capacity if one wants over 2100fps with 500gr bullets in really hot weather.

Having just read the posts from capoward & 465H&H, good posts gents, if Winchester can't do it then I'm not going to try. (Don't have, don't want a 458 anything anyway)
I'd be interested to know if there is such a thing as a simplified version of Saami & CIP specs anywhere on the net? For my information so to speak. Looks like physics wins again.
Steve

quote:

Looks like physics wins again.

Physics is way over rated!

One can get 2150 fps in the 458 WM, as I and others above keep stating, without any signs of high pressure. It is curious that all this denial stuff just keeps on getting repeated.

Will,
I can do the same thing with the 416 Rem. or for that matter the 30-06 and mostly without problems and all seems to be OK, but in fact I don't push the string, Murphy will get us if we do it long enough..

Almost every year I see guns hang up on bolt lift and the one reason is too much powder.

I will discuss these things, but rest assured I have no problem with whatever anybodys shoots in their guns..To get too excited over who does what and how they do it is just plumb dumb IMO...enjoy the conversation and do as you please is pretty good advise..

Sometimes I wonder if some folks are shacking up with their rifles and have fallen in love, or maybe its just infatuation!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Looks like physics wins again.

Physics is way over rated!

One can get 2150 fps in the 458 WM, as I and others above keep stating, without any signs of high pressure. It is curious that all this denial stuff just keeps on getting repeated.

Will, I suspect that Winchester thought they could too but their liability lawyers thought otherwise & whereas we're in the position to develope loads that work in our rifles, they don't have that luxury. Even the Lott letter that I mentioned b4 that my friend has, finished with the admonition that "of course, this is OK in my rifle, what you do with your loads in your rifle is entirely of you choosing" or words to that effect. Perhaps Winchester should put something similar on their packaging & go for broke.
Steve

There is an interesting patent from Olin re. the 458 win magnum and how it relates to the powder developed for the 7.62mm APDS "slap" round for military anti armor use.

Check out this link to the patent for positioning of the powder around the primer.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4841863/description.html

"The reason for applicant's successful solution was precision testing, which indicated the existence of a powder positioning problem combined with the knowledge of certain secret experimental powder mixes that only Olin (Winchester) had and which had been made to solve powder positioning problems in elephant gun proof testing ammunition such as proof load .458 Winchester magnum center-fire rifle cartridges. It is unlikely that anyone other than an Olin employee could have made the present invention because the powder mix was a special experimental powder developed for internal test purposes and possible use in proof loads (i.e. special high pressure cartridges used to test barrel strength), which are
loaded to produce about 71,000 to 74,000 psi chamber pressure."

Maybe some of the 458 win mag ammo problems over the years has been related to uniformity of spherical powder size as patent refers to, and its compression (OR LACK OF COMPRESSION) around the primer!

2,100 fps is plenty fast for mass produced .458 win mag ammo, esp with a monolithic solid.

Personally, I like the 450 Ackley.

Andy

/

I agree with everyone for a change. I was going to state on Wins original figures, on a normal length barrel, but they beat me to it themselves. They aught to have to state pressure, barrel length, and temperature they tested to.

I've never liked ball powder from way back when I saw all those different sized grains, down to dust. Talk about varying density.

The WM is only too short if you want more than it can give.
Obvious, but seemingly overlooked by many.

The trouble I have (in theory) with fancy high pressure/performance loads is that I think that near max can be extreemly close to over max. I have over 0.5 gr margin
here but how much on a really hot day with maybe a round sitting in a fired chamber for a few minutes.

I get around 2050 in a 22" loose factory barrel, and if that would not be enough, I'd take Ray's advice and drill 'er out.

The Winchester velocity figures are from a 24" test barrel at a 60,000 psi pressure level. I don't know what the temperature was but suspect it was 75deg F (?) as that is the SAAMI standard.

Let's remember that the Winchester load uses the Nosler 500 gr solid bullet, which is a monometal design. Those bullets will be much longer than a 500 grain steel jacketed solid and intrude farther into the case using up several grains of powder space. If 2,100 fps is safely possible with the long monometal bullet than 2,150 fps or slightly more should be possible with the a steel jacketed bullet.

465H&H

This may be a dumb question but given the touchy loading required to get 2100 fps with 500 grain bullets why do not more people shoot 450 grain bullets from their rifles? I recently acquired my first 458 Winchester and after reading all the information that seems like a reasonable compromise. Am I missing something?

You will get a lot of argument over this question but for me, I am not willing to give up 50 grains of bullet weight (increased stopping power) for more penetration with the 450 grain FN assuming that is even true. It isn't all that touchy to get 2,100 or even 2,150 fps out of a 458 Win. Esp. if you use a 24" barrel.

465H&H

465H&H: I hear what you're saying but what appears to be a contradiction is the rush to calibers such as the 404 that shoot 400 grain bullets. The 450/400 is the "flavor of the month" and it as loaded by Hornaday is just under 2000FPS. I buy the heavy weight for caliber argument with elephant but for buffalo I don't see how a 450 grain will be inferior. I have had bad luck with buffalo so I am a believer in a bigger stick but with todays quality bullets I don't see how a 10% reduction in bullet weight puts you at a huge disadvantage. I would love to hear from anyone who has used 450 grain bullets and how they performed.

A lot of folks have used the 450 gr. bullet successfully but it is not the point. One can successfuly ding buff with any 375. Using anything bigger than a 375 on buff is just icing.

One reason for the 450 gr. 458 versus 500 gr. monometal bullet was supposedly stability in flight. Don't know how true that is, especially now that 500 gr. monos are being sold.

Giving up bullet weight for jumbo is just not a good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Giving up bullet weight for jumbo is just not a good idea.

Go big, if bigger is available, go bigger or bigger yet. Having used a .458 (480 grain bullets) last year and a .500 (570 grain bullets) this year, the difference in shock or knock down impact is astounding.

If the 458 was an efficient cartridge then all this conversation and frustration by its owners would not exist..The facts are that it is a poorly designed round, always has been and always will be..

That said, a 500 gr. handload at 2000 FPS in a 24" barrel, is a pretty darn good DG load and will surfice for anything on the planet..but this constant search for the holy grail of trying to make the .458 something it isn't is what causes these problems IMO...

If I had a 458 with a 26" barrel, I suspect I would load it to very near 2100 FPS and be happy as a church mouse with it..I would not load it beyond say 2075 FPS..

Just my take on the subject and if anyone wants to load their 458 Win to whatever, then that is their choice to do so and good hunting.