Lets face it much has happened in the shooting world since these "minumum DG caliber restriction's" were created. New reloading componants and powder's, new caliber's, new hunter's "more woman", and we have learned much about the "what" that is the actual killer of game.

With all this under consideration would you fella's be comfortable with a new caliber restriction that included the .338's as the minumum DG round in Africa ?

This, of coyrse, would include the .340 Weatherby, the .338 U, .338 Win, AND the .35's that appear on occasion. A .338 250 to 300 grn "Hard-soft" or solid at 2500 fps is a fairly lethal pill to be tossing about. Wouldnt this be a common sense "starting point" for DG rifle's ?, not "stopping rounds", but "starting rounds ?

I realize there must be some common sense starting off point but will a .375 really give you that much more then a .338 , and , if the shooter does his part wont the .338's deliver the lethality needed to kill a Buff, Lion, or even elephant, in fairly short order.

In other words, with all else being equal, do you think you'd notice the difference between a Buff shot with a .375 and a buff shot with a .338 ?, " all else being equal" mind you. Is it time to "move forward" with DG caliber's ?

Maybe to start emphasising more of the "where" the bullet is placed instead of "whith what" its placed there with ? If guy's can go out for Buff, legally, with a 45/70 then why not allow a .338Win ? Clearly the .338 will penetrate better !

good shooting.......10

In a word, NO!
If it were up to me I'd go back to the old East African rule that stated nothing under 40 Caliber to be used on thick skinned game. Lion could be left at 375 but for damned sure I'd never want anything smaller than that for true hunting of buffalo and/or elephant.

I'm going to have to agree with JohnS, to a certain extent. The only place we differ is the 400 bottom, though I simply love my 450/400 3"NE double rifle. I still think the bottom we have is valid, yet I would not include all the rounds for all the dangerous game, and there we mostly agree as well, but not completely. I believe the 9.3,and 375 should be allowed for the cats, and the 375 for Buffalo as well. Though Elephant have been taken, and it is legal, with even the 9.3X74R, I think the 375 H&H is even questioable here. The question was asked if the 375 H&H is that much better than the 338, and the answer to that is, a resounding "YES". Where I think the 400s should be minimum, on Elephant, and Rhino. There have been a number of Buffalo illegally taken with a 338 Win Mag, but I don't think it is wise to allow it for Buffalo, Elephant, or Rhino. If you allow the .338, then things like the 338/06, 35 Whelen, will have to be allowed as well, since they are larger in dia., but are certainly not up to the task. The 338 is a good choice for Leopard, and even lion over bait, but not for track hunting either of them. I simply think to allow it would open a can of worms that will be hard to close till a few people suffer for it!

The 9.3 being minimum was purposely put in to keep the 35 cal cartridges out, by makeing the minimum dia. .366, and as someone here mentioned the 45-70 can be used legally, but IMO the old rounds like the 45-70, 90, 100, 120 should be restricted to cats over bait, and not be used for Buffalo, and certainly not for Elephant, or Rhino!

I'm for leaving it like it is since the animals haven't gotten any easier to STOP,and we know that velocity is not the answer where the large animals in Africa are concerened. The only thing more velocity increases is hydrostatic shock, a commodity that doesn't empress large African game much! This velocity thing is best left to the deer, and Antalope of the world. Just my opinion, folks, but it's free! so considering the price you can take it, or through it in the can, your choice!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Make it three now, I do not consider the 338 a DG rife with any load. The 375HH is way more gun then the 338 is. The diameter and penetration of the 375HH is significantly more then the .338

I have seen Brown bears shot the same way with both and the reaction is night and day different same with Eland, Zebra, and Wildebeest. I have never seen anyone shoot a Buffalo with the 338 but judging from the other game I have seen shot with it. I hope not to be involved with a 338/ buffalo hunt anytime soon. It would be like the foolish people who say a heavy bullet load in their 300 mag is just as good as a 338. Not a chance!

I like the 338 as a plains game round but unless you want to really risk losing a buffalo with a small .338 entry wound and no exit you need to stay with at least a 375 daimeter and 300 grains. I have seen a number of buffalo shot, and even with 416's and 375's they do not bleed much without an exit wound. With an even smaller hole you really stack the deck in favor of the buffalo.

As far as Hippo, elephant, lion, rhino, brown bear, No way would I suggest a smaller gun then a 375HH. Lions and brownies can be taken with a 338 easily but the 375HH is by a margin better.

To me this is Black and white no grey area. The 338 is not a DG cartridge, and in some ways the 375HH is not a good minimum either. I like mine and have had no probelms with it. I do know many in this business who have had a few problems and I have seen game shot with others using the 375HH that were not impressive.

Gotta go with the others here on this. I've seen to many problems crop up with guns smaller then 375HH on bigger animals. jj

Apparently, some have not used the 338 on dangerous game and are shooting from the hip.

I have used the 338, 375 and 9.3's on dangerous game and I see little difference in any of them..I have seen many old men, youths and ladys use my 338 on Buffalo, Lion and Leopard and all 100% successfully. Probably because it didn't loosen their bi-cuspids, and yes recoil is still a factor in accurate shooting.

The 338 with good bullets kills buffalo well and I believe it should be legal in all countries, after all a 300 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS is pretty potent and it will out penitrate most, if not all, other calibers...Most of the PH's I have talked to and that is many, tell me it is a decent DGR rifle.

One should be required to use it on dangerous game prior to making such inflamitory and biased statments, but then some feel the 375 is not big enough for dangerous game..

Bottom line I would just as soon use a 338 than any of the above, but given my druthers I'll take a 416 or 404, but I never felt undergunned with my 338 and it has accounted for a number of Buffalo.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, you beat me to the post!

Damn, here is my useless input:

Personally, I agree with John S., Mac & JJ.

However, I have little doubt the .338 family can kill any animal on the planet while out penetrating just about every other caliber in the process.

Another thought is how on earth can we deny a good gameshot the right to use his .338 Magnum on buffalo when others are permitted to use pistols, arrows and spears!?

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 08-12-2001).]

I think the difference between a .338 and a .375 is smaller than the difference between a .375 and .416.

I'm of the opinion that a client should be able to use almost anything his PH will allow him to use and I think PHs should be able to charge a sliding scale on this...if you want to use a "poodle gun" you pay the regular rate times 2. Also I think if you want to use a poodle gun and you wound a dangerous game animal and don't recover it you should pay 2X the trophy fee...someone will "pay" later you can be sure. If you really believe in your poodle popper all you have to do is step up to the plate.

I classified the legal dangerous game calibers based on the research I've done, the game I've shot and the various comments of the folk on these fora. Class I is the legal minimum but is it prudent? Now personally, I wouldn't do it, even though I am sure that Holland's .375 will do the world nicely. I'm sort of timid, I guess, having lived a good while and intending to continue doing so. Personally, again, I believe that possibly a .338/06 would be preferable to the winnie because of that study done in Man Magnum that seemed, rather strongly, to suggest that velocity over 2400 fps isn't so good an idea. Still a 300 gr strongly constructed bullet with a sectional density over .320 at 2400 fps. isn't something I'd want to stand in front of, even if I were an elephant. Just make sure the PH is backing you up with a Class III!

Ray and Nick,
I third your reply. 300 grain bullets are available for the .338, which WILL outpenetrate a 300 grain .375 due to the smaller frontal area. I have never killed a buff with a .338, but would not hesitate if the shot became available.
Todd

A great many buffalo and lions have been killed without mishap using the .333 Jeffery and .318 Westley-Richards, both the rough equal of the .338-06 or .35 Whelen, and using long, well constructed, slow moving solids, either 300 grains at 2200 fps or 250 grains at 2400 fps.

I think the serious hunter of dangerous game uses MORE gun than is necessary, not less gun than is prudent, regardless of the advances in bullet technology.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

No matter how good of a shot we are, things can go wrong when hunting. And when things go wrong and the hunted becomes the hunter, you had better be able to clean up the mess quick. That is when the minimum caliber requirements make a lot of sense.

On the other hand, I met a lot of African farmers who don't think twice about shooting a Lion with their old .303 British. Maybe they know a thing or two also.

I'll keep my .416 Rigby though.

Joel

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Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
http://www.slatesafaris.com

Gentlemen,

For your information, the 338 Winchester was being considered as the minimum caliber for the largest dangerous game in Zimbabwe - including elephant!

The reason it did not make the grade was the unavailability of a solid for it from the factory.

This information comes from one of the PHs who have written the regulations.

Personally, I would have no hesitation in using a 338 for everything. In fact, I probably would have been using it for years if it was allowed by the regulations of the respective country\ies.

Of course, it has to be in one of my own wildcats

A 338/404 with the Barnes X 250 grain would do just fine for buffalo, and everything else.

A Speer Tungsten Core Solid would be my choice for elephant.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Alf,
Where have you been? I have missed your involvement, of late.

I agree with what you say here and have often wondered why they've persisted in using a caliber designation, ONLY, to develop desired minimums when, even early on, the myriad of high/low power offerings, per caliber, were staggering. Today, it makes little sense at all. I would think it entirely possible to develop a more appropriate and meaningful system. Good subject for a new thread!

Regs in Zim do currently allow for less than .375 on lion and leopard...basically a 7mm RemMag for lion and 7x57 for leopard. Only buff, hippo croc and elephant require some big.

Alf, I agree with you 100%

It is already legal to hunt all the big five in South Afrcia with the 338 although I have never seen anyone use less then the 375HH for any of them. (Except leopard) I have seen the 45/70 used several times for buffalo to.

For the cost of the trip and the risk I guess you need to judge it for yourself if hunting there. My feelings are very strong on this.

So many people try to catch the biggest fish they can, to set a record for using the lightest equipment while landing the biggest fish. I sometimes feel this has somehow spilled over to hunting? The big difference is we are inflicting a lethal wound to game we cannot catch and release.

When you have spent a year of your life or more planning a safari and saving the money to travel 1/2 way around the world with all the expenses and equipment and stress of the trip. Then you finally get to the moment of truth...... the time in your life you have dreamed about since you were a child, the instant you pull the trigger all that ties you to the trophy is that little piece of lead and copper or maybe a monolithic copper bullet.

about 2500 fps with a piece of soft metal smaller then the size of your finger tip! Do you want to wish for great performance at that moment, or know for certain it will work? Everything you have done and planned for has come down to that $1.00 piece of flying metal!

It's easy to sit here and convince yourself it will work and everything will be perfect............. However after your shot when you hear the bullet smack him and you see him run off without a single spot of blood to be found, and hundreds of hoof prints from the other buffalo's. In the moment it took you to squeeze the trigger they are all gone with a faint rumble of hooves in the distance fading away.

Your heart will sink in to your stomach and you will want to hear repeatedly from the PH that you made a good solid hit. Your nerves will be explosive and your loss unbearable. Will the 338 seem like a good idea then? The same could happen with any caliber but the 375HH and bigger would not be considered a stunt or a marginal caliber, the blood trail will be better with the bigger caliber. The 338 would be a Smaller hole and little if any blood to follow.

The risk to you and the PH needs to be considered, the risk to anyone crossing paths with the bull in the future needs to be considered. The Nature conservation needs to be notified of the wounded bull by law in SA as well. You know you can haul fire wood in a station wagon but a pick up truck is the right tool. There is a reason the 375HH is the legal minimum or considered minimum in most countries.

Consider the big picture, consider the 17 plus hours you will have to think about this alone on the airplane coming home without the buffalo. That flight is already awful without the failue to pre-occupy your mind for all that time.

Sure in the old days folks used all kinds of guns and ammo, even land owners today do. So what! What does that prove to anyone? They did not, and are not paying well over ten grand for a two week safari of their dreams, are they? It gets a bit old with the constant reference to "years ago so and so used this" or they were killing them with XX caliber in the 1800's"

The locals doing these things did not have the expense and time constraints you do today. I guess if you wish to travel so far and put the time and effort into a trip like this with a smaller caliber go for it. You can do it in South Africa today if you can find a PH to take you with it. Archery is legal(with minimums) for all the big five, so a 338 or a 30/06 for that matter can work. It's your time and money to spend or waste. jj

Personally, I'd feel very comfortable with a .338 of some sort on lion, but I'd rather carry a .416 or better on buffalo, hippo, and elephant. I'd rather let common horse sense dictate caliber selection, rather than established regulations.

For example, even if a 7mm Rem. Mag. was legal for lion, I'd still fell better with something larger. The old standard used to be the .375 H&H as a minimum for dangerous game throughout much of Africa, and I think it's still a fair minimum standard to go by.

AD

Allen Day....Maybe it's just me but I felt perfectly comfortable with a .375 in my hands when hunting buffalo and we did work in very close to some in the jess but being in close to a lion or two or three made my .375 feel very small. So much so I woul go the other way and want at least a .416 for lion. Take a look at any of Mark Sullivan's videos where charging buff are shot and then watch Wes Hixon's video with the lion charge and I think you can see my reasoning. I know they got in trouble with Hixon's lion becasue of a bad first shot but......lion's scare the hell out of me while buff just make me cautious.

Why do we always....... ahhh, never mind.

Z

If the lead ain't flying, things ain't dying.

Zero Drift:

My sentiments exactly.

Will

I surly don't disagree altogether with the desenters of the 338 Win in as much as their concerns are for the client and Buffalo, and I respect their opinnions, but having used the 338 on considerable Buffalo I will have to tell all that a 300 gr. 338 solid or soft at 2300 to 2400 FPS leaves an AWSOME blood trail and it absolutly kills as well as a 375 or 9.3 of any ilk...therefore I see no reason it should not be the legal minimum.

I suggest you try it and give it a chance to prove itself..After all I have seen more buffalo culled with the 300 H&H, 308 Win. and 30-06 than with any other calibers. Thats what most of the Tanz. PH's clean up their permits with..Now I don't condon shooting buff with such calibers, but it is food for thought...

Sometime I wonder if it makes any difference what size hole you put in an animals brain or heart, but that has nothing to do with this printed conversation as we all know a 22 will kill a Buff under perfect conditions.

Bill,
As to a "poodle gun", I agree one should pay 2x the cost of wounding, but lets extend that same law to the 700 N.E. which recently wounded an elephant in Africa, that was never recovered.

I will stand firm on the 338 as the absolute legal minimum on Buffalo and will further dub it the perfect Lion gun with a 300 gr. Woodleigh Soft or 250 gr. Nosler.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

But ... what about the video discussion??

DB Bill, I hear your sentiment, alright. I wouldn't feel exactly naked hunting buff' with a .375 H&H either.......

Actually, since you mention Mark Sullivan, look up his video entitled, "Sudden Death". In it, you'll see me shooting a leopard, as well as a cape buffalo. The rifle I use on both animals is chambered for the .300 Winchester Magnum cartridge. I used the same rifle on another buffalo (my .458 went belly up) as well as a slew of other game, including lion.

Now, I guess based on that limited amount of experience you could say that all you'd ever need for dangerous game through buffalo in size is the .300 Winchester, but that would be far from the truth. Actually, I was very lucky, the bullets I used held together and the shots went where I intended them to.

On the average, however I would have been far better off with at least a .375 H&H, and to me the bigger you can go on buffalo, the better, just as long as you can shoot straight.

AD

I guess since some consider the 338 sufficient then a 300 weatherby with a 250 grain barnes solid at 2700 fps would also be good enough for the minimum. Certainly that will Penetrate as good as a 338, or the 375HH the bullet is about an inch and a half long. I don't know what the SD is but it must be off the chart by the look of the bullet. We shot some 600 pound feral hogs through and through both sides of the 3" thick gristle plate that they have and all but one exited.

With this stunt would the the heavy bullets in a 300 mag also be good enough then? On paper they would add up to the same performance? Maybe you could find a 200 grain bullet in the 7mm Weatherby that would also have a similiar SD then we could use the 7mm mag as minimum? Hmmmmm That 25/06 is looking more like a DGR every day now!

Just think how well a FMJ 100 grain bullet would work in that 220 swift! jj

This is turning in comedy sketches. I can kill any buff that does or ever did walk on the planet earth with a .22 LR, just by braining them, but it is not the point. I don't even think the .375 H&H is big enough, unless you brain'em. I've had broadside shots at buff that went into the heart/lung area with .375 solids that didn't exit, and that ain't good enough.

Will - This is the normal course for "these" discussion. Some things you should just not question.

10 Point,

My experience tells me that a .338" bullet is not a good first choice for lion, buffalo, rhino, and elephant.

I also agree with Allen when he says that he feels better with a .416 rifle over a .375 rifle for buffalo.

I ran the following cartridges through the SPE formula and here is how they rate using a super premium soft-point bullet that retains 90% of its original weight.

- 338 Winchester ----- 250 gr @ 2,700 fps - SPE = 227
- 375 H&H ------------ 300 gr @ 2,550 fps - SPE = 270
- 416 Remington ----- 400 gr @ 2,400 fps - SPE = 408
- 458 Lott ------------- 500 gr @ 2,250 fps - SPE = 527
- 470 Nitro-Express --- 500 gr @ 2,150 fps - SPE = 464

Good Hunting !

[This message has been edited by Pumba (edited 08-14-2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pumba:
[B]10 Point,

My experience tells me that a .338" bullet is not a good first choice for lion, buffalo, rhino, and elephant.

Pumba,
I do not believe anyone here has, here, suggested that the .338 Winchester Magnum was their "first choice" for anything but merely that it was worthy of consideration, certainly for the cats and perhaps buffalo.

Guys...you're all so serious. What is said on this forum will not make any difference on the regs in Africa but is "for the amusement and enjoyment" of the participants only. the only rule is be nice and keep your tongue firmly in your cheek.

Ray....I will defer to your judgement providing everyone shoots as well as you do. Also, I know why they couldn't find the elephant shot with the .700 Nitro....it was probably the camoflage-effect of seeing the terrain thru the hole the bullet made...there was just to little elephant left around the hole.

Well my addendum was pretty specific, ".338 as minumum only". I make this statement because Im wondering if there would be a positive tradeoff with shooter's between more accuracy, as to a bit less mass and frontal Dia.

In other words its the same argument that a guy is better off hunting Elk with a .270 he can shoot as compared to a 300 mag that he cant. Just crossover this argument to DG in Africa ; Is there a parallel ? And would this be a positive move ".338 & 250 grn bullets minumum" period & end of Law !!

good shooting........10

Well I'm picking up my toys and going home! I don wanna play with JJ and that old DB Bill no more!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I thought this was about the 338 for dangerous big game?

How come the 375 managed to sneak in?

May be it is about time I let you all into a little secret that I have?

I HATE RECOIL

And I can assure you I do not shoot all the hard kicking rifles here out of choice. There is just no one who would shoot them if I did not.

Now let us see. Roughly speaking, I have shot about 10 elephants, 70 buffalo and 3 lions. All with a 375. At no time did I feel I needed to have something bigger.

I think what is missing from this discussion is how confident a hunter is with the rifle he has in his hands.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,
I find it utterly incomprehensible that a well equipped gun nut such as yourself could take 70 buffalo while using a single caliber.
You truly must hate recoil, my friend.

Saeed:

Isn't your other secret is that you are using the souped-up .375/404?

Will

Nick,

Yesterday I had a chat with my friend Dwight on the phone, and we were discussing this very same subject.

In an ideal situation, I would love to take about a dozen rifles with me, and use one for a couple of days while out hunting.

But, I am afraid the hassles we have to go through to take just 3 rifles is quite daunting.

I know, I can always take a couple of different rifles on each hunt.

But, I just seem to like my old faithful.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,
I am truly sorry but, after trying to digest this all day long, I must say you are indeed a rare bird. How shall I put this? O.K. What you have done is tantamount to King Farouk having sixty wives, toying with 59 of them while looking for #61 but actually sleeping, the entire time, with just one.
I strongly suggest that you either Mail-Order a very large and colorful sombrero or stay out of the sun totally for a good long while.

Saeed,
Damn, now I know why you wear thoes nightgowns instead of pants, 69 wives, hell you ain't got time to zip and unzip!! or dress and undress...If I was 20 years younger I would become your adopted son and move to dubai....but to little to late and a dollar short...damn the luck. Then again one wife is enough trouble, more would drive me over the edge on which I'm tettering at this point.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Nick, Ray,

We have some Scottish friends here, and one of them likes to wear a kilt every now and then.

We had this conversation a while back when he came over wearing it.

Scott: " Good afternoon gentlemen"
Walter: "Afternoon Scotty. God you have ugly legs! Enough to put me off sex for life!"

Scott: "This is our national costume! Only REAL men wear it!"

Saeed: " If your REAL men wear skirts, what do your women wear?"

Walter: " Yes. Let's us have an answer to this one."

Scotty: " Saeed, you lot should be the last to complain about my kilt. Why do you and your country men wear dresses then?"

Walter: "Yes. I would like to know this too!"

Saeed: "Well, we have a slight physical problem. We cannot wear trousers, because if we did, we would need three legged trousers to accommodate the third leg in the middle!"

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

I suppose men's egos are the same the world over, heh?

Will,
And you thought he merely possessed a splendid shooting eye! He's a bloody walking TRIPOD!