Apropos of jbderunz's hunt report concerning his safari in the CAR, Don Causey just circulated a report via email of a PH getting shot in the hand and arm by a Chadian cattle herder with an AK-47 (after the PH's having fairly blatantly provoked the attack, or so it seems to me).

It seems the Chadians are crossing the border into CAR to graze their cattle. The PHs shoot the cattle and shoot at or near the herders to shoo them off, apparently generally in the air. In this case, the PH shot into the ground near the herder, who produced an AK and took rather pointed exception.

Makes me wonder how often this kind of thing happens, be it with cattle herders, poachers, war veterans, rebels, guerillas, etc. Not much, I would think, but who knows? The potential for misinformation or disinformation is high.

IMHO the PH got what he ask for.. take a shot at my feet and I would do the same.. Never point a gun at anything your not willing to kill, I was taught when I got my fisrt bb gun..

MR

Wasn't shot at but had FN FALs and AK-47s aimed at me and the PH and trackers in Zim. By Police and Warvets.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Don Causey just circulated a report via email of a PH getting shot in the hand and arm by a Chadian cattle herder with an AK-47 (after the PH's having fairly blatantly provoked the attack, or so it seems to me).

Mr. Causey sometimes gets his facts precisely backwards, such as when he circulated a newsletter stating that Out of Africa had been exonerated of poaching in ZIM, while at the same time Out of Africa has been banned from ZIM and has been listed as a threat to national security by the ZIM police.

Better take Mr. Causey's newsletter with a grain of salt because it does not appear the 'facts' reported are well-investigated for accuracy.

On my first African safari to Burkina Faso, I ended up in a rondaval between poachers and a anti-poaching patrol.. and listened to AK's rock and roll... and a couple of single barrel shotguns respond... or maybe the shotguns started it... anyway, it sure scared the do-do out of me. I've got pictures of the members of patrol, "captured" smoked meat, consficated bicycles.. and a next day action report, complete with 5 smiling dudes who "won" that contest.. didn't get the pictures of the dear departed... or the shit in my britches.

I never thought I'd hear the dat..dat..dat of the slow cycling AK again (after ducking often in RVN). I could have passed on the whole thing.

Another day in Africa.

I was about to ask the forum if anyone had heard such a report after a ph frined told me he had heard. The PH in question is a certain Craig Hamman (no relation to Kyler who posts here I suspect?).

In our circles, he is known for being quite arrogant with local staff but would like to hear the full details of the story if anyone knows.

What jbderunz is describing has been a fact of life in that region of the world for a long time. When I lived in the Central African Republic (1977-1980) I had the opportunity to visit the Parc St. Floris which is a wildlife park on the Chadian border. Its isolation and distance from the capital of Bangui meant that there was virtually no legitimate police or armed force in the area. We took a Park Ranger (he had no vehicle, no cartridges for his rifle which he carried as a symbol) and zero motivation, on a little excursion to the northern border of the park, ie. the border with Chad. We stumbled on to a poacher camp but the poachers were absent, probably out herding their cattle. We burnt the camp to the ground, including the drying fish and some skins. Seeing the smoke the Chadian poacher/cattle herders returned in a hurry, saw there were five of us including the Park Ranger and kept their distance, about a kilometer away. The next day we went out again with the Park Ranger. We were not there to hunt and therefore unarmed (it is illegal of course in a wildlife park) but one of my friends had an S&W revolver in .357 magnum. We found the herders who pretended to be only herding their cattle. My friend, who was a wildlife biologist doing a study in the park, shot one of the cows and told the Chadians he would shoot one per day until they left. The next day we went back and the herders had moved back accross the border. We knew they would come back as soon as they thought enough time had elapsed.

In the last two years, three of my engineers working on a road construction job in northern Cameroon (very near some good hunting areas I might add) have been the victims of highway robbery at gun point and we have lost two vehicles. We now have army escorts for most of our travelling in the region. Those of you who keep up on current events probably have some idea of what Southern Sudan is like these days.

The email in question included a verbatim report of the incident filed with The Hunting Report by Boetie Bothma, principal of Aouk Sangha Safaris, the operator of the concession where the altercation occurred.

The PH was identified as Craigh Hamman. The details are as I have reported them above. The prognosis for his recovery is good, although reconstructive surgery will be needed on his hand.

Bothma does say in his report that CAR's Wildlife Department in Bangui has authorized him in writing to shoot any Chadian cattle in his concession on sight. The authorization apparently does not extend to shooting at people.

It seems stupid in the extreme for anyone in that situation to shoot at or towards anyone he isn't willing or doesn't intend to kill.

Better know your rifle's data out to at least 1000 meters....you might need it!

That's why I'm hunting plains game with my .338 Lap. Mag. Plenty good (on cows) out to 14-1500 meters with MK 300 grainers!

Just fun'n!

Jeff

I have heard the PH's in Zim (Chewore North) talk about shooting at (and hitting) poachers that cross the Zambezi from Zambia to shoot elephants, etc.

My PH said the odds of seeing them are very very low, as they would probably see & hear us first.

I did ask him what would happen if we saw any poachers, his matter of fact answer was "if they are armed, shoot as many as you can". 50/50 whether he was pulling my leg or not. For the record, I personally would be hugging the dirt and making a quick exit. I have zero interest in shooting at anyone.

But I did overhear one well known PH tell another that they found some poachers over an elephant kill and the Zim Game Scout circled around to identify himself and approach the group. The PH remained concealed and one of the poachers popped up with an AK-47. He very matter of factly said he shot the guy with the AK-47.

Tim

Bwanamich,
Craig Hamman is no relation of mine (slight spelling difference).

Kyler

I know Craigh Hamman well. If he didn't hit the herder he didn't intend to. He is a dead shot from any position in any situation with any kind of weapon including bow.
He is the mildest mannered most unprovactive guys I've known in awhile.
I'm waiting for "the rest of the story".

A fun incident that only resulted in a little blood was a grenade attack on the main post office in Dar es Salaam.

A group of us were collecting poste restante mail in the GPO by going through every letter in the alphabet when a window behind us smashed and everyone started screaming and hit the deck, diving behind counters, jumping out windows or running out the door. There were probably more than fifty persons in the GPO. Someone yelled out in English "a grenade". I looked around and only us eight white mazungas were standing up, and something was rolling around in the bodies only 3 metres in front of me.

A friend and I bolted out the door but were stopped by guys coming back in saying it was a false alarm. Someone had thrown a rock through a window and yelled it was a grenade for fun .

This taught me several things:

1. If it had been a real grenade I would be bits of mincemeat and hair and skin stuck in cracks of the wall;
2. The grenade would have killed most of the stupid white people all left standing;
3. The local black Dar es Salaam residents are either well trained or well practiced in diving from grenade attacks;
4. Next time, don't look for the thing rolling around, get down on the ffffing floor!

The blood was from a guy who smashed his arm through a glass door while exiting in a panic.

We got our mail, and went and had a nice ice-cream.

(PS This is a 100% true story - Fun in Africa!)

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
I have heard the PH's in Zim (Chewore North) talk about shooting at (and hitting) poachers that cross the Zambezi from Zambia to shoot elephants, etc.

My PH said the odds of seeing them are very very low, as they would probably see & hear us first.

I did ask him what would happen if we saw any poachers, his matter of fact answer was "if they are armed, shoot as many as you can". 50/50 whether he was pulling my leg or not. For the record, I personally would be hugging the dirt and making a quick exit. I have zero interest in shooting at anyone.

But I did overhear one well known PH tell another that they found some poachers over an elephant kill and the Zim Game Scout circled around to identify himself and approach the group. The PH remained concealed and one of the poachers popped up with an AK-47. He very matter of factly said he shot the guy with the AK-47.

Tim

There is no better dangerous game hunt than the hunt of dangerous men.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
I have heard the PH's in Zim (Chewore North) talk about shooting at (and hitting) poachers that cross the Zambezi from Zambia to shoot elephants, etc.

My PH said the odds of seeing them are very very low, as they would probably see & hear us first.

I did ask him what would happen if we saw any poachers, his matter of fact answer was "if they are armed, shoot as many as you can". 50/50 whether he was pulling my leg or not. For the record, I personally would be hugging the dirt and making a quick exit. I have zero interest in shooting at anyone.

But I did overhear one well known PH tell another that they found some poachers over an elephant kill and the Zim Game Scout circled around to identify himself and approach the group. The PH remained concealed and one of the poachers popped up with an AK-47. He very matter of factly said he shot the guy with the AK-47.

Tim

There is no better dangerous game hunt than the hunt of dangerous men.

HP Shooter,

Don't get me wrong, if I ever felt my life or the life of my loved ones, friends, etc. were in emminent danger and I saw NO alternative but to use deadly force, I'm confident I could and would. Before that happend, I would do everything possible to get out of that situation before it reached that point.

It seems like there are a lot of people who seem to relish the thought and/or opportunity to use deadly force, i.e. "if he comes on my property, I'll shoot him" etc. etc. I just don't think people realize the ramifications of taking a human life. I know that I don't, and I don't ever want to. However, if it ever came down to a "him or me" scenario and just hope I do everything possible to finish it in my favor.

I have a close friend that this happend to (on duty). He and the suspect were basically wrestling while the suspect was trying to shoot him. My friend lost a small piece of his finger when a bullet from the suspects gun hit the ground by his hand. Ultimately, my friend held on to the suspect's gun as he used his gun to put one shot to the chest and two or three to the head. The deceased was a very nasty character (with a violent criminal record) and my friend truly has ZERO remorse for this (and I agree that he shouldn't). Anyway, he knows others that have taken lives and he says it is not the feeling that many of the "gung ho" types expect it to be.

I'm sure it is different for our boys in Iraq who are being shot at on a daily basis. Probably a great feeling of relief everytime they drop the hammer on an insurgent.

Tim

It's a heck of a lot more likely that you will be shot at while driving through JoBerg (or L.A.) than while on safari, so relax.

When we were in Zambia in 2000 we would hear sporatic gunfire every few days. Our game scout was afraid to go himself but wanted us to go investigate. I told the ph I was there to hunt not chase the locals and he agreed. We did see a guy who had snared a guinea hen and the boys in the back insisted that I shoot him as he ran away. They assured me that I wouldnt get into trouble but as you might imagine I was a bit wary of such advice. I didnt fly 10,000 miles to shoot people I could have done that at home.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Better know your rifle's data out to at least 1000 meters....you might need it!

That's why I'm hunting plains game with my .338 Lap. Mag. Plenty good (on cows) out to 14-1500 meters with MK 300 grainers!

Just fun'n!

Jeff

I have a Sako TRG S in 338 Lapua. What ammo do you use and what rifle do you have?

Wimpie
wleroux@howden.co.za

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
It's a heck of a lot more likely that you will be shot at while driving through JoBerg (or L.A.) than while on safari, so relax.

Any PH worth his salt will not take his client close to any dangerous area (ie Hillbrow) in Joburg, he will know where to take him where he can do shopping in a safe place. Show me any big city in the world where you do not have no go areas.

Wimpie
Know where you are going and be prepared for what you might encounter. A .22 in your hand is better than a .50 in the safe.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Apropos of jbderunz's hunt report concerning his safari in the CAR, Don Causey just circulated a report via email of a PH getting shot in the hand and arm by a Chadian cattle herder with an AK-47 (after the PH's having fairly blatantly provoked the attack, or so it seems to me).

It seems the Chadians are crossing the border into CAR to graze their cattle. The PHs shoot the cattle and shoot at or near the herders to shoo them off, apparently generally in the air. In this case, the PH shot into the ground near the herder, who produced an AK and took rather pointed exception.

Makes me wonder how often this kind of thing happens, be it with cattle herders, poachers, war veterans, rebels, guerillas, etc. Not much, I would think, but who knows? The potential for misinformation or disinformation is high.

While I don't know the facts behind this encounter, I'm suprised the PH took at shot at the Chadians. Anyone with a smidget of experiance with Chadians would know that they are in general unusually agressive (a result of decades of war?) and chances are higher that they have an AK they are more than willing to use, than that they don't and won't.

Outside the capitol N'jamena, and larger towns in Chad, most men we saw were armed, and as in many of the north african countrys we had rifles pointed in our faces at checkpoints by police, military and "militia". It seemed that this was often just to intimidate "the white man". Of course with the relativly poor security situation in Chad, I can understand that local people there want to have a weapon to defend themselves with (although it is maybe a little too easy for some of them to cross the line, and become bandits themselves...).

While driving thru the semi offroad "No mans land" between Chad and Sudan, the handfull of local vehicles crossing that day besides us were held up at gun point by camel riding bandits. Luckliy non of the hold up victims were shot. However, we were told by the militry that the patrol sent out to apprehend the bad guys were told to not bring back any prisoners. I don't know if any, or all, were chased down shot, but it is likely that they were.

All in all, armed and unarmed violence is common in much of africa, and getting thru it depends on using ones wits in most cases IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by wimpie:
Show me any big city in the world where you do not have no go areas.

Beijing. (you asked...)

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:

(although it is maybe a little too easy for some of them to cross the line, and become bandits themselves...).

Banditry and slave raiding has been a popular industry for thousands of years in these places.

Why would it be any different in modern times?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by wimpie:
Show me any big city in the world where you do not have no go areas.

Beijing. (you asked...)

Thank you 500grains

What can we hunt there??

Wimpie