Home early due to a) client getting his ele and b) Typhoid (bring some Cipro with you it seems common this year )

Anyway-two interesting problems with some .458 Lott Hornady factory ammo with those brass jacketed bullets. Client took a heart shot at c25 yards, bull turned on us and charged. Client took a frontal brain shot at about 10 yards- perfectly placed and the ele stopped, shook it's head and started forward again. I saw him struggling with a jammed bolt and had to finish matters.

On cutting out the ivory we fount that his bullet had hit the front of the shull and deforned badly- turning to run straight up between the tusk bases.

As to the jammed bolt- I can only assume it was a pressure spike. A real good clout lifted the bolt handle and it extracted. Rifle is a fairly well used Ruger Mk II that the client has used in Africa for Buffalo for the last two years. Yes, the rifle and ammo had been in the sun, but it is winter - and winter arrived with a crash on tuesday morning. When we shot the ele at 2.30 the day had warmed up but was hardly "hot" (about 27°C ie guess). The clients rifle had been proped up in the sun for a couple of hours whilst we watched a group of bulls and waited for the wind to shift (there was no shade on top of the little hill where we were.) once the wind dropped, we walked in and he shot it.

He has the case and bullet and will be having his rifle checked when he gets home and hopefully send me pictures to post on the forum, but decidedly poor performance.

Sounds like the now old style Interbond soilds. They are being replaced with the copper clad steel jacketed soilds. The type Hornady made several years ago but then lost their supplier of the copper clad steel. They now have a new supplier of that material.

Keith

I had a client make a textbook perfect heart shot on a Buffalo with that particular 458 round.

They never found him.

Add yet another story to the multiple stories about that Hornady's incompetent performance.

This brings two thoughts to my mind.

First, Hornady loads the Lott to 2300 fps. Seems to me that doing so negates the only advantage that the Lott has over the Win Mag - a true 2150 fps with 500 grains at a low DG pressure that the Win Mag can't touch.

Second, check what's going on in the industry before leaving for an important hunt. Hornady dropped that bullet due to problems with and reverted to their fine steel jacketed solid long before your client left for Africa.
----------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, eveything else just burns gunpowder."

400 - I know that and offered him a box of Superior ammo loaded with Barnes Banded solids or some of John Lasala's custom ammo- but he didn't want to use nasty mono's in his rifle

Makes a good case for Woodleighs, GS customs and Northfork flat nose solids, and Barnes. I like those flat nose monolithics, nasty is sometimes the way to go!

I am planning on using North Forth flat point solids on my elephant hunt in August (.475 bullets). Any one ever have a negative experience with those on dangerous game?

My experience - https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=892105935#892105935

Bad bullets. Hornady ought to be ashamed of themselves. That stuff should be pulled from the shelves. Caveat emptor indeed.

As for the jam, who knows? I have used my Lott, even using Hornady factory ammo with the old steel jacketed bullets, in far hotter temps than 27 degrees Celsius with no problems whatsoever.

quote:

I had a client make a textbook perfect heart shot on a Buffalo with that particular 458 round.

They never found him.

The Client or the Buff?

First of all, I doubt Hornady loads their Lott cartridges to 2300 fps, which is about all one can get from handloads.

About the bullet deforming, most do. My son used them and never a problem. Maybe they are pieces of crap, but there are always these anecdotal stories.

Unless Ganyana was standing cheek-to-cheek with the client I wonder how he knew it was perfectly placed.

This could also be a case of the PH wanting to shoot the client's elephant.

And no one from Africa can be believed.

Damn, Will! Things must be boring in Missouri.

You found me out. I should be out shooting.

"First of all, I doubt Hornady loads their Lott cartridges to 2300 fps, which is about all one can get from handloads.

About the bullet deforming, most do. My son used them and never a problem. Maybe they are pieces of crap, but there are always these anecdotal stories.

Unless Ganyana was standing cheek-to-cheek with the client I wonder how he knew it was perfectly placed.

This could also be a case of the PH wanting to shoot the client's elephant.

And no one from Africa can be believed. " - Will

Talk about cynical!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
First of all, I doubt Hornady loads their Lott cartridges to 2300 fps, which is about all one can get from handloads.

Nope, Hornady lists softs and solids both at 2300 fps, and their ammo usually runs dead at spec. Yeah, that's loaded all the way to the top, which was my point exactly.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter Formerly Known As Texas Hunter: Talk about cynical!

I think it is a poorly scripted attempt for humor at Ganyana's expense.

Poorly scripted. Now there is something to think about. "Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $55 postpaid:
The Elephant Hunters, P.O. Box 104, Spring Hill, Kansas 66083 USA
Free plug.

Brian

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter Formerly Known As Texas Hunter:
"First of all, I doubt Hornady loads their Lott cartridges to 2300 fps, which is about all one can get from handloads.

About the bullet deforming, most do. My son used them and never a problem. Maybe they are pieces of crap, but there are always these anecdotal stories.

Unless Ganyana was standing cheek-to-cheek with the client I wonder how he knew it was perfectly placed.

This could also be a case of the PH wanting to shoot the client's elephant.

And no one from Africa can be believed. " - Will

Talk about cynical!

I'm just kidding. You bring out the trolls when you say something like that.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
First of all, I doubt Hornady loads their Lott cartridges to 2300 fps, which is about all one can get from handloads.

Nope, Hornady lists softs and solids both at 2300 fps, and their ammo usually runs dead at spec. Yeah, that's loaded all the way to the top, which was my point exactly.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Well, I stand corrected then. I thought I read were guys were only getting ~2200 fps.

I do know that getting 2300 fps takes less powder with the brass Hornady solids compared to the Speer AGS solids. Hornady must be using "magic" powder!

And every rifle is different. When I had a Ruger 416 Rigby I believed what I read on AR about 100 grs. of H4831 (or something). The 400 gr. bullets where zinging and had to beat open the bolt! Every rifle is different.

Bill, I chronographed some of the first Hornady factory loads in the Lott through my rifle's 24 inch barrel and they came in under 2,250 fps, IIRC. Somewhere close to that though. That was back when I was developing hunting loads.

Close enough for government work, but I have been able to get a true 2,300 and a bit of change with my handloads using VV N540 and 500 grain Woodleighs.

I got only 2,202 fps with that load from my 22" barreled Lott and 2,256 from a 25" barreled CZ 550 in 458 Lott. My results with the 458 Win load advertised at 2,260 only went 2,089 from a 22" barrel and 2,133 from a 24" barreled rifle. Seems like a lot of hot air in Hornady data.

465H&H

I chronographed both their soft and solid ammo out of my CZ Lott (25-inch barrel), and they all went around 2300 fps.

I shot a buffalo last year with that exact round out of my .458 Lott and the bullet disinegrated. The shot was quartering to, and the bull was down within 80 yards, so I can't say the bullet failed to do its job, though by any accepted definition, it was a bullet failure. I certainly won't use them again, and have been shooting my considerably large stock of these shells and rocks, boards and other things that don't bite of stomp back. I'm switching to custom loaded Barnes X and Barnes solids.

Clocked that load here at one of our shoots. From a RSM, got just over 2300.

Keith

quote:

and the bull was down within 80 years,

That's a loooooong follow up!!!

Cheers,
Canuck

If you can afford to go to Africa, you can afford better bullets than Hornady.

Canuck: Hey, he's a lawyer, what did you expect, the truth? He told me that the whole hunt lasted over 100 years.

Will The real reason it hurt to shoot the clients ele was I had that steel plate that held my colar bone together removed two weeks ago and having to fire a shot burst some of the stiches.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Will The real reason it hurt to shoot the clients ele was I had that steel plate that held my colar bone together removed two weeks ago and having to fire a shot burst some of the stiches.

Oh, come on. Shooting that magical 6.3x62 busts stitches?

Hope you are recovering. I greatly respect Zim PH's (except for you, of course ).

Get well soon.

Opps. Sorry for my typing! My secretary refuses to transcribe dictated tapes onto the AR website for me, so I'm left to my own devices. I wish to hell the hunt had lasted 80 or 100 years! - for you editors-in-training, I've fixed my post!

Bwanna: You should have left it the way it was. . . .By the way, what kind of gun do you now have that shoots shells, rocks, boards, and other things? I need to get one of those just in case I run out of shells on a hunt. Are you keeping it from me?

When I was doing some testing of my 450 No2 double at 100 yards I was shooting at some life size paper deer targets at my deer lease.
The bullets were impacting into a natural ridgfe behind the target.
I was shooting some 480 Woodleigh Solids, some of the old Hornady Steel Solids and some of the new Hornady Brass Solids.

After shooting I "dug" around a little in the impact area which is a little rocky. Many of the Brass Solids had lost their lead core, Not so for the others.

I used the "brass" Hornady solids for an elephant safari in Zim a few years ago. I didn't plan to hunt plains game but when I found I had a leopard license, I shot all kinds of stuff for bait and trophies. The gun shot .416 Hornady solids at 2200 fps. Of course, I got shoot-through penetration on stuff like Kudu and impala. The bullets seemed to track straight and the exit holes were round and about .50". That's a big difference from a buff or elephant, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

and the bull was down within 80 years,

That's a loooooong follow up!!!

Cheers,
Canuck

I agree, such a statement certainly shoots some holes in the statement, "At what point in the bull's death did the bullet fail?"



I realize this was probably a typo but the temptation to comment was simply too great. Old age vs bullet placement just tickles my funny bone. I can't help it.

Big guy - it was a slow and painful death. On the other hand, hell of a big trophy because the bull had 70 years after the shot to work on his horn growth

UEG - with friends like you . . .

The only thing I use Hornady bullets for is punching paper.

I had my fill of Hornady bullet failures on thin skinned game. Ain't no way I would ever think of using them on DG - particularly the new Interbonds.

Doug

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanna:
Big guy - it was a slow and painful death. On the other hand, hell of a big trophy because the bull had 70 years after the shot to work on his horn growth

I respect this frank and honest answer! Well done!

You're a good sport. I truly enjoyed your response.

With friends like me you. . . . . go to Africa!

My 400 gr .416 Rigby Interbonds are giving excellent performance. They tear through the paper, smash the backstop board and penetrate well into the dirt bank.

Ã… steike....

Well its many good bullets out there and how much a Safari cost why use the cheapest bullet avialable?

I have heard and seen much about the Hornady Interbon, i thought of trying it in the .450 Ne rifle i have, but that told me it will prefer Woodleigh and other bullets.