I am not sure how much interest there might be in this topic but it is a question that was asked of me recently. I think that the diverse group on AR may have some personal experience with the topic and can perhaps provide some input.

It is an interesting question and one that I had not previously considered. Some of you may have some direct knowledge in this regard if you have recently hunted with Botswana professional hunters that might fall into this category or know others who recently have.

Because lion and leopard hunting in Tanzania is so different (and perhaps so difficult) are Botswana PHs having a difficult time? My reason for asking, I was recently told that one of Botswana's most well-known and successful PHs failed to shoot lion, leopard, and buffalo on his first 21 day safari in one of Tanzania's finest hunting blocks. Is this total lack of success happening to other Botswana PHs as well?

I am interested in reading what you might know!

And why would his failure to shoot these animals place any question on his ability?

I have hunted Tanzania, and other countries, with very capable professional hunters, and have not managed to shoot either lion or leopard.

I have also heard of areas in Tanzania which have been shot out of all their trophy buffalo.

It might help if you were to give a full disclosure rather than playing the cat and mouse game.

I am going to take a stab at this one,

Now before I get my head bitten off, I am not generalising on all Botswana PHs I am just commenting on my personal experience.

Botswana had 2 types of Phs

The home grown Elephant die hard hunters, and then the African Phs who hunted more than one country during a season.

There are some of the Botswana Phs who have dozens of elephants under their belt but have never baited a lion or leopard before. Any leopard they had ever hunted was off the back of a Cruzer following Bushman trackers.

I had one of these Phs, this year in the Timbavati, and even though he had years of elephant hunting experience, he did not know the ass end of Leopard or Lion hunting. Unfortunately he was not interested in learning and always had a better way to do everything.

Needless to say client left without all his species.


Now the second type of Botswana Ph is probably the best you can get, they have spent many years hunting and guiding in all parts of Africa. They have built up years of knowledge of different methods of baiting tracking and guiding their clients to a successful Safari.


As for whoever the Guide is you are talking about, Tanzania can beat the best Ph down, and there could be many reasons why his clients left without a lion or leopard.


I do not know the statistics but I am sure that for every 5 full bag hunts only 1 client will leave with either one of both of his cats.

JK

Can you please explain a bit more detail? It can & does happen with cats sometimes, but not getting buffalo (in a "good block")seems a bit odd. As a possible explanation: Maybe it could be somewhat the clients fault, and not the PH?
I had a client one time who honestly couldn't walk/track buffalo more than 150 yards in a flat area. He was old & out of shape, and we nearly had to carry him out & back to the car!
I've also had picky buffalo hunters turn down very nice bulls, refusing to shoot anything under 45" (and even one who wanted ONLY a 50 incher!!)Etc. Perhaps the client was obsessed with the tape measure, and/or had shot many big buffalo on past safaris, and had a certain size in mind; and choosing not to shoot?
So It is entirely possible there could well be other reasons we don't know of resulting in lack of success.
More details please....
Had another (from Europe) who refused to, and was incapable of sitting more than 30 mins in a blind! I had a monster Chui feeding, but after less than 30 mins he said that's enough cat hunting for me! And during those few minutes kept pointing to his watch and asking "Where's the cat?" "Why he's not coming??"

When Kenya closed hunting, many of the PHs headed down to Botswana and started the hunting there.
On a similar note: Some PHs came from southern African countries to hunt in Tanzania. I have heard a number of stories of these guys hunting elephant for the first time in Selous. They were used to judging ivory on the big bodied bulls down south, and due to the somewhat smaller bodies on Selous elephant; some PHs badly over-estimated a lot of ivory there.

TZ-PH

Careful how you talk about past clients, you might just find yourself on the firing line
as being one of those PHs who bad-mouth their clients.

Knowing how a couple folks really enjoy making arguments on here..youre probably right!
I don't enjoy mentioning past safaris, just saying to clearly illustrate: "lack of success" is not always what it seems. Though it can be, it is not always the fault of the block, PH or outfitter in some instances. If anybody got offended by that, then I apologize.
We don't know all of the facts here. He just mentioned the FIRST safari. What happened on his other safaris? As there's often two sides of a story, was just trying to present another possible explanation by way of illustration (rather than just simply stating it could be the client's fault).
FWIW: I have no problem at all with guys hunting for a certain size trophy; in fact I usually enjoy it! Its their hunt, and if they want to hold out for a 60" buffalo...that's entirely up to them.
With the tough 6 year lion rule, and leopard always a bit of a challenge, that could explain the cats. If the client was a seasoned buffalo hunter and looking for something much bigger than he already has...that could possibly explain the failure on buffalo.
Again, not taking any side on this. It could well be the PH was the problem.

Good morning gents,
It seems to me that reading between the lines and picking up on what is not being said, I can clearly see two diametrically different PH's here.

As to the Bots PH, i heard the same story from another source. My feelings were the same. The client may have; not concentrated on Buffalo. Cats are a chess game at best and a crap shoot at worst. Without us knowing specifics, we can only surmize.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
Knowing how a couple folks really enjoy making arguments on here..youre probably right!
I don't enjoy mentioning past safaris, just saying to clearly illustrate: "lack of success" is not always what it seems. Though it can be, it is not always the fault of the block, PH or outfitter in some instances. If anybody got offended by that, then I apologize.
We don't know all of the facts here. He just mentioned the FIRST safari. What happened on his other safaris? As there's often two sides of a story, was just trying to present another possible explanation by way of illustration (rather than just simply stating it could be the client's fault).
FWIW: I have no problem at all with guys hunting for a certain size trophy; in fact I usually enjoy it! Its their hunt, and if they want to hold out for a 60" buffalo...that's entirely up to them.
With the tough 6 year lion rule, and leopard always a bit of a challenge, that could explain the cats. If the client was a seasoned buffalo hunter and looking for something much bigger than he already has...that could possibly explain the failure on buffalo.
Again, not taking any side on this. It could well be the PH was the problem.

TanzPH should not be challenged for stating very possible reasons for a client not taking their desired game, specifically when it involved the client.

I watched a very nice couple, but Very out of shape, struggle to take anything that involved any walking. The PH busted his but building blinds to try and accommodate there physical condition. In the end on a 10 safari, they took a nice bushbuck, a warthog and lost a buffalo due to poor shooting. They also missed a number of animals from the blind for poor shooting.

Please note, these folks were super nice and didn't blame anyone but themselves.

I felt bad for them as they realized being in as poor of shape and not practicing shooting prior to their arrival impacted their safari. They were quite open about this realization. I'm afraid other clients might not be.

Just because you write a fat check, doesn't mean that's all you have to do as a client.

As to the Bots PH, i heard the same story from another source. My feelings were the same. The client may have; not concentrated on Buffalo. Cats are a chess game at best and a crap shoot at worst. Without us knowing specifics, we can only surmize.


Steve[/QUOTE]

Very well stated!

I think hunting is hunting and if you are GOOD HUNTER and learn your area in and out, besides picking brains of locals and other hunters/ PH's, then you are gonna do well.
One more point, you gotta be good with people/clients, trackers and locals...
It ain't rocket science

I suspect the reason is that in Botswana the trees were dripping in Lion and Leopard and in Tanzania they hide behind grass and rocks?

Fairgame:

You forgot the burrowing type, very similar to prairie dogs.

All this is bound to change sometime in the future when TZ will too embark on lion breeding programs and from then onwards the Bots PHs will be back on home ground.

quote:

Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
As to the Bots PH, i heard the same story from another source. My feelings were the same. The client may have; not concentrated on Buffalo. Cats are a chess game at best and a crap shoot at worst. Without us knowing specifics, we can only surmize.


Steve

Very well stated! [/QUOTE]

Even if he chose not concentrate on Buffalo for whatever reason (maybe set the score limit too high?), cats still need some enticement and the menu for that safari (21 day licence) offers a grand variety of game to choose from:
offerings for the King include Hippo, Zebra, (Eland, Hell no, that goes back to camp ), and other larger antelopes.
Leopard loves Zebra, Hippo, Warthog, lesser antelopes.

To suggest therefore that not concentrating on buffalo may have been the reason for not scoring on cats doesn't hold water.

While the 6 year rule does indeed create a situation of its own, the Leopard is not affected and if your PH cannot secure a decent size cat at worst then the concession is not what it has been claimed as being: (...."his first 21 day safari in one of Tanzania's finest hunting blocks").

So, Mr. OP, give a full disclosure rather than playing the cat and mouse game.

Fujotupa,
I am most likely going to be in TZ about this time next year. I am sure it will be a 21 day affair. Going inr, I will make it crystal clear with my PH (whom I worship) this will not be a cat hunt. I don't know if it is even feasable to "casually" hunt for a Lion. Not interested in Leopard, killed enough of them. So if I were to go 21 days and return with a truckfull of PG and a few Buff, I would consider it a huge success.

I know what happens when you concentrate your efforts on cats. Takes the fun out of it, doing your rounds.

So, not killing a Buffalo or two, that sounds a bit odd, but the cats? Who knows the reasons.

If a Bots PH didn't have a competent, local staff to familiarize him of his area, shame on him. Those guys are doing most of the hunting for "us" anyway...right?

Nganga:

Seeing you have made it "crystal clear" that cats are not on the menu, you should qualify for a discount on your hunt (which you might already have done). God forbid your outfitter be given the opportunity to sell the same "cat tags" twice.
The feasibility in "casually hunting" a lion is actually how quite a few lions are taken, not actually "hunted" but rather "encountered".

"Doing the rounds" as you say is part of the hunting schedule anyway and by doing so in checking baits, in reality takes nothing out of the hunting.

Back to the original post: "one of Botswana's most well-known and successful PHs failed to shoot lion, leopard, and buffalo on his first 21 day safari in one of Tanzania's finest hunting blocks".

The "failure" could be attributed to the possibility of the client's ultra-high expectations, i.e. Buffalo 45+, Leopard 200lbs+ and Lions 8+yrs (Black mane only)which therefore was no real failure on the part of the PH but more likely that the quality of the concession has been exaggerated.

"If a Bots PH didn't have a competent, local staff to familiarize him of his area, shame on him".

Indeed, so much for the accolade attributed to this individual if he embarked on a "supermarket safari".

And what with Saeed's and Aaron's recent failures in prime areas one could surmise that Tanzania does not really have any trophy Lions to sell?

The six year old rule could be construed as an excuse?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
And what with Saeed's and Aaron's recent failures in prime areas one could surmise that Tanzania does not really have any trophy Lions to sell?

The six year old rule could be construed as an excuse?

Hi Andrew.

My reason for having a casual, almost cavalier attitude about Lion hunting next year are two fold. The six year rule and the fact that cat hunting (in my opinion) would take away from the hunting for the TZ species I've wanted for a while.

I originally wanted to hunt an Elephant but it seems my chances would be better at the Phoenix Zoo.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:


I originally wanted to hunt an Elephant but it seems my chances would be better at the Phoenix Zoo.

Funny and very sad at the same time.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
And what with Saeed's and Aaron's recent failures in prime areas one could surmise that Tanzania does not really have any trophy Lions to sell?

The six year old rule could be construed as an excuse?

Andrew, you know better than that! Bell-Cross and I did the 1st lion hunt (Generally considered the best) of 2007 together in Luswishi, and in 21 days I never saw a big male lion, at all. Didn't even see one!!! So would you have then surmised that the area no longer had any trophy lions??? Ya, I bet not!! Cause the hunter right after me shot a fabulous lion.

If you read my report closely, you would see that I did in fact see one very big/mature trophy lion - that I could have easily killed, and would have been very happy with. He was however with little cubs, so we let him walk. The 6 yr old rule had nothing to do with that - it was a conservation decision we made ourselves. There was nothing illegal about shooting him, should we have chosen to.

Sometimes you just don't find what you are looking for, that's HUNTING!!!

As for the buffalo you mentioned in my hunt report, I couldn't care less how big they are. First off, I am generally shooting them for bait and secondly, I just like shooting buffalo - regardless of size. I've already shot a couple of real whoppers, so how big the rest of them are means NOTHING to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
And what with Saeed's and Aaron's recent failures in prime areas one could surmise that Tanzania does not really have any trophy Lions to sell?

The six year old rule could be construed as an excuse?

Andrew, you know better than that! Bell-Cross and I did the 1st lion hunt (Generally considered the best) of 2007 together in Luswishi, and in 21 days I never saw a big male lion, at all. Didn't even see one!!! So would you have then surmised that the area no longer had any trophy lions??? Ya, I bet not!! Cause the hunter right after me shot a fabulous lion.

If you read my report closely, you would see that I did in fact see one very big/mature trophy lion - that I could have easily killed, and would have been very happy with. He was however with little cubs, so we let him walk. The 6 yr old rule had nothing to do with that - it was a conservation decision we made ourselves. There was nothing illegal about shooting him, should we have chosen to.

Sometimes you just don't find what you are looking for, that's HUNTING!!!

As for the buffalo you mentioned in my hunt report, I couldn't care less how big they are. First off, I am generally shooting them for bait and secondly, I just like shooting buffalo - regardless of size. I've already shot a couple of real whoppers, so how big the rest of them are means NOTHING to me.

Aaron,

You need to put one of those winking yellow smiley faces after my comment mate.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
And what with Saeed's and Aaron's recent failures in prime areas one could surmise that Tanzania does not really have any trophy Lions to sell?

The six year old rule could be construed as an excuse?

Andrew, you know better than that! Bell-Cross and I did the 1st lion hunt (Generally considered the best) of 2007 together in Luswishi, and in 21 days I never saw a big male lion, at all. Didn't even see one!!! So would you have then surmised that the area no longer had any trophy lions??? Ya, I bet not!! Cause the hunter right after me shot a fabulous lion.

If you read my report closely, you would see that I did in fact see one very big/mature trophy lion - that I could have easily killed, and would have been very happy with. He was however with little cubs, so we let him walk. The 6 yr old rule had nothing to do with that - it was a conservation decision we made ourselves. There was nothing illegal about shooting him, should we have chosen to.

Sometimes you just don't find what you are looking for, that's HUNTING!!!

As for the buffalo you mentioned in my hunt report, I couldn't care less how big they are. First off, I am generally shooting them for bait and secondly, I just like shooting buffalo - regardless of size. I've already shot a couple of real whoppers, so how big the rest of them are means NOTHING to me.

Aaron,

You need to put one of those winking yellow smiley faces after my comment mate.

I gotcha bro, my fault!!!!