Since there is a fence most of the time? Even a 60,000 acre ranch? I assume reading the SCI definition yes

Eastern Cape and Natal have free ranging species on sheep and cattle ranches.

Many species have Government hunting seasons etc

OK thanks.As per SCI definition if it has a high fence even though fair chase 60,000 acres its considered estate? Even if natural born on concession etc? Reading the SCI application seems cut and dry, we hunted Kudu true free range and duiker, but the majority was on a concession with a fence, which is really to keep poachers out. I was just wondering if there was a further interpretation due to these facts. I have seen a real ranch hunt which in now way this was but seems like it can be in a 10x10 pen or a 60,000 acre spread and considered the same hunt

I hunted on a mixed low-fence and high-fenced operation in South Africa's Karoo region in 2015 and 2017 for an old eland bull that was resident in the area. I spent 4 days hunting him in 2015, and 4 days in 2017, and only saw all of him once. The final stalk was totally on foot, and as tough as anything Ian Gibson ever put me through. I considered that fair chase.

Tim, the fact that you could reliably target one specific animal multiple years apart, to me that makes it something a bit less than fair chase. I've hunted in SA, and certainly understand it, but it isn't anything like going to public land in Montana after elk.

I know folks will say that they've hunted a specific whitetail for several years, had him patterned, etc...but to me that is still very different than a single animal being confined within a fence, albeit a very large fence.

Overland, I did mention that the Karoo area was both low and high fenced, and I assumed, (perhaps incorrectly), that those of us on AR are well aware that containing an eland inside a fence is only possible if the eland wants to stay inside it. There was a resident herd there that had an ancient old bull that I was finally able to catch up to. Also, the land owner recently showed me a picture of a much bigger eland that one of his clients took last year that the land owner had never seen before, so obviously the Boone And Crockett definition of fair chase was definitely in play. There are many areas in Namibia that have no visible fences, but the boreholes are the only available water, so they are de-facto fences that hold the animals as surely as a fence does. I think that there is too much ego-drive B.S. between us hunters that can be, and is, used by our common enemies to fragment and destroy us. I had a far easier time taking a lioness and a tuskless elephant in Chewore North 7 years ago than I had with that eland. You may split hairs if you want to, but it is a slippery slope that goes nowhere good.

Everything in South Africa is fenced !
It is the law of the land though under the current government fences are stolen

Under law every numbered road ( was / is ) fenced and every road had a road crew looking after it and its fence !

It may be the law, but it ain't necessarily so!

Not unless you count rivers as fences. Where I first hunted in Limpopo province, there was nothing to keep the critters in or out of the rivers and of course with hippo(which we had), I do not know how effective fences would be.

So safe to say any area In South Africa with a fence no matter what kind and how large is an “estate” or non free range per sci rules?

There is true free range animals in South Africa!

We hunted wart hogs on a cattle ranch near Alldays and a potato farm near Baltimore. Neither were high fenced

M

We are muddying the water by not defining the fence. High fence is not required by law. Low fence yes along public roads. Most species will jump a low fence (oryx won't surprisingly) and some will penetrate a high fence (hogs, apes, cats and of course elephants).

If you high fence the property, the game belongs to you and you are exempt from some game laws including seasons. Low fence and the game no longer belongs to you, the state makes the rules.

I am pretty sure SCI means high fence when they refer to fenced.

I am a South African ! The question was about FENCES as opposed to HIGH FENCES.

I will state again everything in South Africa is Fenced not necessarily HIGH FENCED and to boot there is a HIGH FENCE between South Africa and it's neighbours to the north !

Also there is no unceded land in South Africa, everything is owned !

One of the things that the Europeans brought from the earliest times is cartography and the tools of surveying.

A constant phenomenon of european settlement was the fact that the land was surveyed and parcelled up to be owned by someone or some entity !

Part of the settlement process was to separate game from the domestic herd in conjunction with the control of human and animal disease !

It was and is contained in the law !

This a map from the time of the old transvaal drawn up just after the Boer war with the farms in what is still known as the District of Pilgrims rest The farms were surveyed in the late 1800's . Many of these now part of the Kruger and fences dropped to form the big 5 reserves around the Kruger.

I wasn't able to find any updates to the requirements, but this is the wording from the 2012 records rules.

Free Range vs. Estate Animals
An “Estate” will be any property or area that uses an artificial or unnatural restrictive barrier, in most cases a fence, which restricts or confines the movement of game animals. The restrictive barrier may consist of multiple sides or only one side. If the artificial barrier is used in conjunction with a natural barrier such as a bluff, canyon, river, lake, or other natural barriers, then the enclosed area is also considered an “Estate”.

I guess you just have to read it, and answer truthfully what your understanding of the area you hunted was.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There is true free range animals in South Africa!

I know I hunted them but also some inside a gigantic fence!

That’s what I found so most of
South Africa is!

quote:

Originally posted by Blank:
I wasn't able to find any updates to the requirements, but this is the wording from the 2012 records rules.

Free Range vs. Estate Animals
An “Estate” will be any property or area that uses an artificial or unnatural restrictive barrier, in most cases a fence, which restricts or confines the movement of game animals. The restrictive barrier may consist of multiple sides or only one side. If the artificial barrier is used in conjunction with a natural barrier such as a bluff, canyon, river, lake, or other natural barriers, then the enclosed area is also considered an “Estate”.

I guess you just have to read it, and answer truthfully what your understanding of the area you hunted was.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ Gould:
We are muddying the water by not defining the fence. High fence is not required by law. Low fence yes along public roads. Most species will jump a low fence (oryx won't surprisingly) and some will penetrate a high fence (hogs, apes, cats and of course elephants).

Almost all animals learn to jump a low fence. My own oryx, black wildebeest and zebra jump these fences with ease.
We also forget about the smaller animals that go under fences. Steenbuck, duiker, etc. are not the least bit contained by normal cattle and sheep fences. They too will jump a 4' fence when motivated.
A great deal of South African hunting takes place outside of fenced areas.
The only high fences on my 38800 acre land are to keep the kudu and other game out of the alfalfa fields.

South Africa is a diverse country with variable biomes where different species of game occur or formerly occurred.
We also have a provincial system of Governance and each province has it own Conservation laws.

All game in South Africa is owned by the People of South Africa under Roman Dutch law falling under the Res Nullius principle.
The State acts as the "curator" of South Africa's wildlife resources.

Under the law this curatorship in part can be transferred to individuals under provisions of the law and as such these individuals then also attain ownership of the game under their control. These owners are then allowed to profit from this game but always under the umbrella of the law and with specific permission via a permit system.

Owning a suitably fenced piece of land with game on it still is subject to the law though exemptions from part of the act are granted via a permit system

Under the law then such ownership demands that the owner ( holder of the permission to own) has to exercise control over the game and this is done via the erection of suitable game fences as prescribed by the law that have the ability to contain the game over which control is exercised.

Strictly speaking the only way you can truly and wholly own a game animal in South Africa is when it is dead and has been legally, by granted permit or licence been killed !

A second set of laws apply and that is the veterinary laws that govern animal health in the country. In short the assurances put into place to assure the well being of the national domestic herd. These laws are separate from conservation laws and also lead to and demand the exercising of legal control over wild animals and their movement.

I hunted all low fence ranches in Kwa Zulu Natal for bushbuck and Nyala.

As Alf mentioned, there are conservation areas around Kruger where the fence has been taken down or not repaired. I hunted buff on Klasserie which is one of these conservation areas. I was told there was no fence between it and Kruger and we certainly never saw a fence. Kruger is the size of Switzerland. If that is not free range, what is?

KwaZulu Natal. Hunted kudu, nyala, bushbuck,
impala. Along he Umkamass river. All completely free range. Wonderful area

We can bitch all we want about SA fences, but without SA, the safari industry would be hell of a lot poorer

quote:

Originally posted by Karoo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ Gould:
We are muddying the water by not defining the fence. High fence is not required by law. Low fence yes along public roads. Most species will jump a low fence (oryx won't surprisingly) and some will penetrate a high fence (hogs, apes, cats and of course elephants).

Almost all animals learn to jump a low fence. My own oryx, black wildebeest and zebra jump these fences with ease.
We also forget about the smaller animals that go under fences. Steenbuck, duiker, etc. are not the least bit contained by normal cattle and sheep fences. They too will jump a 4' fence when motivated.
A great deal of South African hunting takes place outside of fenced areas.
The only high fences on my 38800 acre land are to keep the kudu and other game out of the alfalfa fields.

So do you consider it “free range” or “fair chase”? Or an estate?

It's all moot anyway when the land is "reformed", there will be no wildlife, there will be no trees of any size, and there will be no fences. Just huts, dust, chickens and the odd goat.

But since this is about SCI, you need to ask them what constitutes free range and what constitutes a "farm"/"conservancy"/"concession" in RSA.

Yes I will my 13 year old got 2 gold and possibly a top 20 duiker last may plus a bunch of other stuff. Duiker and some other animals free range next to the 60,000 acre fenced ranch so I will call and see what the sci interpretation is. Would like to put him in the books and make sure he gets hooked.