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Appearing to be nonchalant around elephant bulls
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Yo !

I have only been on a couple of elephant hunts so obviously really don't know as much as PH dudes that hunt them all of the time ..

I do know that (sadly) every now and then someone gets the chop from one ...

What I haven't figured out from watching some of the hunting videos and shows like 'Tracks Across Africa' and such ... how is it that some guides are standing really close to elephants and they are holding their rifles by the end of the muzzles - over their shoulders .. the classic way of carrying rifles over there .. ???

Have they very little respect for them ... or are they 100% positive that they can know what the ele is going to do next ???

Quite some years ago I heard of a guide in old Rhodesia that would take tours to look at the game ... (at least once he even dressed like Tarzan ... that must have looked ridiculous) ... sometimes he would get so close to the elephants that he would touch them .. I long ago forgot what park this was in ...

My Ph told the dude that someday this would backfire !!! The day that an elephant absolutely destoyed the chap - some of the tourists thought it was part of the act and kept taking photos!)

What am I missing from these fellows posing with what look like the tamest of wild animals ... ???
 
Posts: 1549 | Location: Alberta/Namibia | Registered: 29 November 2004Reply With Quote
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It has to be from years of watching their behavior... and/or a bit of luck.

Hopefully Ivan Carter will respond, he has to be the most qualified person here to comment.


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Posts: 2520 | Location: Central Coast of CA | Registered: 10 January 2002Reply With Quote
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I always thought it is irresponsible behavior
But then who am I right?
The moment you take things for granted, so ething bad is gonna happen


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
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PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...

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Posts: 13376 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT or holed up in Lochsa | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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quote:
The moment you take things for granted, so ething bad is gonna happen

AMEN!


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Posts: 2294 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Taking a chance on being crucified here, but, I have always thought it was a bad idea. The ph may be confident of the elephants attitude and feel comfortable doing so. The real damage is that someone who knows nothing about elephant hunting see a ph standing feet from an elephant and talking calmly to the camera can only think, "how can they shoot such a tame animals!"
Watch one of those "famous ele scenes" with a person that may be on the fence about hunting and then try to explain how dangerous elephant hunting is to them. They will laugh you out of the room!
 
Posts: 725 | Location: Texas | Registered: 18 March 2007Reply With Quote
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I have one thought around elephants. Never trust an elephant .
 
Posts: 12159 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
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If you understand after being taught how to read elephant body language you will understand and know when to move up close and when its best not too.

Ask a guy like Ivan how many elephant approaches he has done in an tuskless elephant hunt and you will get the idea how much close up time he has actually spent up close to them.


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Posts: 1659 | Location: Dullstroom- Mpumalanga - South Africa | Registered: 14 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Not always the case, but some of the shots are optical illusions from the camera positioning. The best example I have seen is the Jeff Rann show in one of the opening scenes, they appear to be about 5 feet from the Elephant when they are probably really more like 30-40 yards.


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Shoot 'till it's dead, especially if it bites.
 
Posts: 898 | Location: Southlake, Tx | Registered: 30 June 2003Reply With Quote
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As all animals, some elephants are unpredictable, and anything one might have learnt in the past, is thrown out of the window.

On many occasions, one would get an idea that it is better to give them a bit of space, or something is going to happen.


Some of the charges one sees on TV shows are instigated by those present, may be to add drama on purpose.

Others happen because the elephant has had enough, and prefers to sort that puny little creature following him every where.

I have been hunting elephants for over 30 years, had a number of charges, but never had to shoot any in this situation - except tuskless ones.


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Posts: 69698 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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In the mid-90's, we went to Zim. This area had a high fenced area in it for game viewing . They took my wife. She thought it was great fun to feed these young elephants peppermints. I warned her about it. She laughed it off. The next week the same elephant killed someone.

I do not trust them ever.
 
Posts: 12159 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
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My only experience around elephants are from zoo work, and I had a good friend killed by one.

But, from dealing with lots of various species of animals over the years, animals in general have the ability, for what ever reason or sense, can determine a humans intentions or attitude for like of a better word.

Whether it is thru body movement/posture or a change in body odor, animals can detect when a person is afraid of them and when that person isn't.

Acting/moving calmly, or as some have stated, nonchalantly, basically remaining calm and alert with attention focused on the animal and its body movements, go along way toward helping keep the animal calm, but not always.

What worked for a person 5, 10 or a hundred times, might/could or will fail fatally on that next encounter.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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It takes a fraction of a second to deploy a double rifle from the traditional "African carry" to "in battery" so to speak.
 
Posts: 10601 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 26 December 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
On many occasions, one would get an idea that it is better to give them a bit of space, or something is going to happen.


Sometimes even that precautionary move is not enough....

Anyone remember this:?


quote:
"...

The family followed the guide on a long circular route around the waterhole to get closer, always keeping a fair distance between them
and the bull. The group stopped behind a large termite mound to observe the bull. At this stage the bull was still some distance away
and was lazily feeding along a common elephant path, walking right to left to the waterhole (the elephant path ran in front and across
the group some 100m away). The elephant left the path coming towards the termite mound still feeding and unaware of the group,
nevertheless gaining ground slowly. At this point the guide noticed that the elephant bull was in musth (A periodic condition characterized
by aggressive behaviour and an increase in the reproductive hormone testosterone.) He advised the Parkers that it was time to leave
and they started backing away from the termite mound to some bush cover, keeping the termite mound between themselves and the elephant.

The bull must have picked up movement or a scent even though the wind direction was in the groups favour.
The bull then mock charged toward the termite mound (a mock charge is easily distinguished from a full charge because the ears
are kept open and forward. A full charge is when the elephant tucks its ears back, drops its head with the trunk between its legs).
The guide stepped out and shouted, which stopped the bull, it mock charged again and he shouted again stopping the elephant, the bull
then continued with its charge. The guide fired a warning shot above the bulls head but the shot did not deter the bull. The guide did
not manage to discharge another shot as the elephant ran him over. The bull went onto to knock Charlotte over as she was not far behind
the guide, killing her instantly. The bull then chased Kelvin for some distance as he ran away in a zig zag fashion. Kelvin noticed the
bull gaining ground on him but for some reason the bull stopped and went back towards Veronica who must have stopped running. The bull
charged Veronica, killing her instantly. The elephant then moved off disappearing into the bush. Kelvin was not injured during this
incident and Andy, the guide had no major physical injuries."
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Interesting where is that from?


White Mountains Arizona
 
Posts: 2863 | Registered: 31 December 2005Reply With Quote
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55,

its from a few yrs ago concerning an incident at "The Hide" elephant walk service,Zim.

cantankerous ele bulls in musth have proven fatal for even some the best PHs.
Had the client & scout been with Ian and the tracker, end result could have been even more tragic.

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Fulson:

However it appears that Ian and his client had been on the tracks of an elephant bull for approximately 5 hours when they decided to take a break
and allow the client to rest. Feeling he was quite close to the elephant, Ian and his tracker Robert continued to follow the tracks in hopes of
getting a look at the ivory as the client stayed with the game scout to rest. Robert indicated the bull was in musk. They eventually caught up to
the bull, spotting him at about 50-100 meters. The bull instantly turned and began a full charge. Ian and Robert began shouting in order to stop
the charge. At very close range, Ian was able to get off one shot before the bull killed him.

Ian Gibson was a fine man and one of the most experienced professional hunters on the African continent.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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I've found that every time I take something for granted or treat it with contempt or overfamiliarity, it bites me in the arse.

Whether it's driving, reloading, cooking, rock climbing, or even my job - if I don't take it seriously, it will bite me. Be assured, it can look casual to an outsider, but it isn't.

Now, I'm not saying those PHs weren't taking things seriously or didn't know what they were doing, but sometimes it can look casual to those not in the know.


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Posts: 1048 | Location: Canberra, Australia | Registered: 03 August 2012Reply With Quote
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I don't trust even "tame" elephant. I refused an elephant ride in Zim some 11 years ago and after we left my PH just said, "I don't blame you a bit...they can't be trusted". Simple as that.
 
Posts: 2472 | Registered: 06 July 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by lavaca:
It takes a fraction of a second to deploy a double rifle from the traditional "African carry" to "in battery" so to speak.


Yes, I am quite sure you are correct about that. This is certainly an absurd comparison, but if was holding a shotgun that way and an unexpected big rooster jumped up cackling that I did not expect .. I am sure that I also could get my two shots away while the bird is in range - but I just might not hit what should be an easy shot ... now compare that to a bull elephant and only a couple of seconds to stop it .. Yikes !
 
Posts: 1549 | Location: Alberta/Namibia | Registered: 29 November 2004Reply With Quote
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Scruffy:

I agree and when I know I'm in proximity to game or close to something that could bite, my rifle is in my hands. The issue is when you are caught by surprise.
 
Posts: 10601 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 26 December 2005Reply With Quote
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The guides job is to get you in to a safe place to view them from and put you at ease in the situation.

I can assure you that no guide or PH is anything but focused on the situation and no matter what perception you may have of them. If they are worth their salt they are ready to react at a moments notice.

As was said by another poster, more often than not the camera angle lies.
If you are under 20 yards from an Elephant you only have 3 seconds to react at best.


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Posts: 794 | Location: Namibia Caprivi Strip | Registered: 13 November 2012Reply With Quote
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Standing 20 yards away from an elephant bull or cow with your rifle on your shoulder is simply stupid and irresponsible. Worse still is when someone does it with a "mock charge"with the ele stopping mere meters away. I dont care if it was Bell, Harland or any of the old greats- no one can read elephant behavior 100% every time.

I have seen lately on Face book a well respected group involved in training students doing the same thing and the bull turns at 5 yards and the instructor has not lifted his rifle off his shoulder. He will certainly in time become a statistic but worse then that is his young students may also. At worst his students will leave the coarse thinking they can "read" elephant behavior only to put others at risk.

This time last year I shot an ele bull in self defense -it covered 40 yards in seconds and had I not been ready I would have been squashed! Get rid of the "ego" rubbish and simply be ready for all situations!
 
Posts: 1128 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 22 June 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
In the mid-90's, we went to Zim. This area had a high fenced area in it for game viewing . They took my wife. She thought it was great fun to feed these young elephants peppermints. I warned her about it. She laughed it off. The next week the same elephant killed someone.

I do not trust them ever.



Wives and elephants...just sayin...
 
Posts: 2857 | Location: FL | Registered: 18 September 2007Reply With Quote
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With several people getting smushed by elephants in the last few years, I have to agree with Buzz. They can be unpredictable and are too big to wrestle.


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Posts: 1270 | Location: Bridgeport, Tx | Registered: 20 May 2005Reply With Quote
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I have killed all my Ele, both bulls and cows, at between 25-15 yards. When stalking up on Ele my rifle is in the ready position, either a port-arms or butt on hip position. I don't care how the PH carries his rifle. I have been in close on two when they became aware of "something" in their comfort zone. That is the time to shoot quick and accurately, and discuss things afterwards.

Thank you Buzz, you are 100% correct.


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Posts: 3577 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Standing 20 yards away from an elephant bull or cow with your rifle on your shoulder is simply stupid and irresponsible. Worse still is when someone does it with a "mock charge"with the ele stopping mere meters away. I dont care if it was Bell, Harland or any of the old greats- no one can read elephant behavior 100% every time.

I have seen lately on Face book a well respected group involved in training students doing the same thing and the bull turns at 5 yards and the instructor has not lifted his rifle off his shoulder. He will certainly in time become a statistic but worse then that is his young students may also. At worst his students will leave the coarse thinking they can "read" elephant behavior only to put others at risk.

This time last year I shot an ele bull in self defense -it covered 40 yards in seconds and had I not been ready I would have been squashed! Get rid of the "ego" rubbish and simply be ready for all situations!



tu2 tu2 tu2 tu2 tu2 tu2 tu2
 
Posts: 5686 | Location: Nampa, Idaho | Registered: 10 February 2005Reply With Quote
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They can do as they wish... I have both barrels loaded with solids, and the stock close to my shoulder...
 
Posts: 1490 | Location: New York | Registered: 01 January 2010Reply With Quote
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I have been around wild INDIAN elephants a fair bit in the 1970s. My dad was a Forestry / Wildlife expert for 35 years and we went into national parks a lot.

When with my dad, we have gone as close as 10 meters to a herd. My dad tried some silly tricks like giving out a tiger roar from say 30 meters to get the bull to charge - click a quick photo & run to the jeep. We have been charged many times - once in a jeep - where we escaped by a foot or two - with dirt and stones filling the jeep!

Dad took heaps of photos over the years until one day while running back, he put his foot in a small depression and fell backwards, with the elephant just 3 or 4 meters behind!

Dad & those in the car thought he was going to be killed. But for some reason the elephant stopped its charge!

My take on elephants is that if they are unmolested, they are still dangerous and could charge. But if you do not threaten the calves and monitor their sounds and body language you are quite safe. The deep rumbling sounds are usually the safe ones. The high pitched sounds are often the warning - a bit of a generalisation .....

On the other hand elephants that are constantly harassed for crop raiding are VERY dangerous and should be kept at a long distance.

I presume that African elephants could be similar to a fair extent.


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Posts: 11420 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Standing 20 yards away from an elephant bull or cow with your rifle on your shoulder is simply stupid and irresponsible. Worse still is when someone does it with a "mock charge"with the ele stopping mere meters away. I dont care if it was Bell, Harland or any of the old greats- no one can read elephant behavior 100% every time.....

This time last year I shot an ele bull in self defense -it covered 40 yards in seconds and had I not been ready I would have been squashed!
Get rid of the "ego" rubbish and simply be ready for all situations!




quote:
Originally posted by ivan carter:

The photo was taken with a big zoom from about 100 yards behind us and the bull was at about 7 or 8 paces
(you can see if you look at my feet)-





quote:
Originally posted by ivan carter:
..spend enough time out there and around elephants and stuff will happen ....i would hazard a guess that between us buzz and me
rank highest in number of elephants killed in self defence , both of us have in the last two and half decades spent thousands of days
around elephant - a TZ ph who guides two ele hunts a year probably will never shoot one in self defence - the most elephant i have
taken in a single year with clients is 28 - of that over half were cows.

the scenarios (all 6 of them) where i have shot in self defence are actually the scenarios that taught me the most and what the overall
lesson that came through from those experiences is that you cant trust what you "think" you know ..to that end

Saeed , you nailed it ...NOBODY knows what an animal especially a wild animal is going to do next ...every single safari i see and learn
something or experience something i didnt expect and no matter what you have to be ready for that.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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That's exactly what I was referring to. Try explaining to a "on the fence hunting" person why we hunt elephants. They will say, "why they are half tame", "how can you shoot them?"
 
Posts: 725 | Location: Texas | Registered: 18 March 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Standing 20 yards away from an elephant bull or cow with your rifle on your shoulder is simply stupid and irresponsible. Worse still is when someone does it with a "mock charge"with the ele stopping mere meters away. I dont care if it was Bell, Harland or any of the old greats- no one can read elephant behavior 100% every time.

I have seen lately on Face book a well respected group involved in training students doing the same thing and the bull turns at 5 yards and the instructor has not lifted his rifle off his shoulder. He will certainly in time become a statistic but worse then that is his young students may also. At worst his students will leave the coarse thinking they can "read" elephant behavior only to put others at risk.

This time last year I shot an ele bull in self defense -it covered 40 yards in seconds and had I not been ready I would have been squashed! Get rid of the "ego" rubbish and simply be ready for all situations!


Precisely!

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Posts: 69698 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Yes, sometimes Hollywood it is
You don't see Alaskan bear guides do that, I wonder why
Then again, maybe some might and became dinner in process...
I bet you a dollar, lots of them old African guides and the old elephant hunter wouldn't do this shit.


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...

Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies...
Only fools hope to live forever
“ Hávamál”
 
Posts: 13376 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT or holed up in Lochsa | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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And there are many that instigate charges, for the camera. But cows charge all the time. Had better listen to Taylor. Smiler


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