I was about to post something on the John Greef thread but thought more appropriate to not tread on that personal tragedy.
It would seem logical for PH's to have some dogs when going in after a wounded leopard to assist in distracting it from the humans. I realize this is just another camp liability but it would appear to me to be a real asset. Arm chair quarterbacking here!
I can see where this would be the most difficult animal to hit in a charge (small and fast).
I wish Mr. Greef a speedy recovery.

EZ

It wouldn't be cost effective to keep a pack a dogs in camp for use once in every several years.

465H&H

But...I can tell you from mountain lion experience...the "right dogs" would solve the problem. But...on another note...one would have to look at the dogs as a tool...as some will NOT come home from those wounded follow-up situations.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
It wouldn't be cost effective to keep a pack a dogs in camp for use once in every several years.

465H&H

I have to agree with EEzy on the dogs being a valuable asset that could be left at home, taken to camp only if leopard was on the minue for a safari or two during the a season.
The dogs are not a sure thing in avoiding a mauling, however, as the PH Butcher found in Zim a few years ago! The leopard got past the dogs and chewed him up considerably! A mauling is far less likely with the dogs however!

Do they allow the use of dogs in Tanzania?

D. Nelson

quote:

Originally posted by D. Nelson:
Do they allow the use of dogs in Tanzania?

D. Nelson

NOPE, not legal!!!!

Even if they did allow dogs, the tsetse's in a lot of areas will kill the dogs long before they even get close to the leopard.

Theunis Botha is one of the most experienced dog pack handlers in Africa and has hunted a considerable number of leopards - he got badly mauled last week, in spite of a good pack that includes a dogo de argentine. Sometimes nothing is enough no matter how good or experienced you are and there is a good reason they are called dangerous game.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by D. Nelson:
Do they allow the use of dogs in Tanzania?

D. Nelson

NOPE, not legal!!!!

unless with the prior written permission form the Director of Wildlife

We have tried before to get permission for bird hunting but despite considerable efforts to include videos of bird hunts with dogs, etc, permission was not granted. The concern is that by allowing this, then it makes it harder to prosecute poachers caught hunting with dogs! Don't ask! TIA...........

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by D. Nelson:
Do they allow the use of dogs in Tanzania?

D. Nelson

NOPE, not legal!!!!

unless with the prior written permission form the Director of Wildlife

Pretty much anything CAN be legal, with "prior written permission from the director", but figured it wasn't even worth mentioning in this case. As we know what they are gonna say.

The thought was not hunting with dogs but using them to locate and bay wounded leopards.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
The thought was not hunting with dogs but using them to locate and bay wounded leopards.

Not legal to use dogs period! Not saying its right, but it just isn't legal in TZ.

quote:

Originally posted by Manyathelo:
Even if they did allow dogs, the tsetse's in a lot of areas will kill the dogs long before they even get close to the leopard.

+1 Yep! D-E-D dead!

Brett

Nine years ago while hunting plains game in RSA, we came across a lot of snares. The PH commented that the govt. doesn't prosecute the poachers brought in so they ( the PHs) don't bother to turn them in. They just shoot the poachers' dogs.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
The thought was not hunting with dogs but using them to locate and bay wounded leopards.

Exactly!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Manyathelo:
Even if they did allow dogs, the tsetse's in a lot of areas will kill the dogs long before they even get close to the leopard.

+1 Yep! D-E-D dead!


Brett

It would take 60 -90 days for trypanosomiasis to kill a dog.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
The thought was not hunting with dogs but using them to locate and bay wounded leopards.

Not legal to use dogs period! Not saying its right, but it just isn't legal in TZ.

I see! Thought it might be legal for a wounded follow-up.

Corne and Nic Kruger with Omujeve Safaris have each faced down several charges from leopards over the past few years, and can tell you first hand that the dogs mean nothing at all to the leopard, once he has located the hunters. They run right thru the dogs! They might locate them easier, but sure wouldn't be a deterent.

Blank, you commented on exactly what I was thinking.

I have no experience with Leopards, but I just got in from running my hounds tonight. I have some experience breeding, and running hounds. On a mid-sized bear a pack of well bred hounds can catch and kill it, although it does not often happen. On a younger bear it will happen from time to time, say Leopard size to 250, alot of this depends on the terrain and dogs, though.

Hounds are a controversal subject as everyone wants to promote their hounds as slam jam crackerjack dogs. I do not see a pack of hounds catching something with the strength and speed as a Leopard. The only advantage I see to hounds is that they are a distraction. This may cause a charge; however, as I stated I have no experiences with Leopards. Hounds aggitating bears can cause a charge, and was the reason I killed my last bear so close.

Locating the Leopard seems like a big advantage as Robert Ruark stated they give no warnings. I have read in several places that they appear out of no where, often times circling. Having an idea of where to expect the cat seems like it would allow for preparedness.

The leopard is a perfect devil who will, when wounded, attack the throats and heads of as many of his erstwhile persecutors as he can reach.

And that can be several.

Plus, while he is biting at carotid arteries, jugular veins, eyes and faces, he will at the same time furiously rake and stroke his hind legs and claws in wicked efforts to rip open and disembowel his antagonist.

All of this must be in the hunter's head before and as he tries to shoot this beautiful and deadly cat off of a carefully chosen branch, above a carefully placed and dangling bait.

Killing a leopard takes skill, but it also takes confidence and judgment.

And those are not qualities that every hunter who may suppose he has them is privileged to possess.

I've always liked the idea of a pack that would include a couple Ridgebacks personally.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
It wouldn't be cost effective to keep a pack a dogs in camp for use once in every several years.

465H&H

I have to agree with EEzy on the dogs being a valuable asset that could be left at home, taken to camp only if leopard was on the minue for a safari or two during the a season.
The dogs are not a sure thing in avoiding a mauling, however, as the PH Butcher found in Zim a few years ago! The leopard got past the dogs and chewed him up considerably! A mauling is far less likely with the dogs however!

It was in botswana and it was not a wounded leopard. he was checking a bait and while he was trying to sort out where the leopard that hit the bait had gone. then he got hit by the leopard hit him. he was lucky the leopard had few theeth left and he only "gummed" him. he had a bad injury in his arm and the leopard was killed by his client Charlie and Warricks dogs few minures later. the leopard had been caught in a trap and chewed his way to freedom eating his leg. a year later this happened. he was lucky not many theeth left due to the metal on the trap. this gave us ammo two harrash him as being gummed instead of chewed. he told me the story personally 3 months ago. on wounded leopard dogs do help.
Just my 2 cents

If a leopard comes for you you are in a dep bit of s..t. but dogs help a lot locating him and may give you that extra second needed to get prepared....

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Manyathelo:
Even if they did allow dogs, the tsetse's in a lot of areas will kill the dogs long before they even get close to the leopard.

+1 Yep! D-E-D dead!


Brett

It would take 60 -90 days for trypanosomiasis to kill a dog.

let me think. bring dogs in at the start of the season. season lasts about 6 months. incubation period is 2-3 months. yep.... seems like dead dogs to me.

as an aside, the leopard i shot in Botswana( although admittedly unwounded) went straight through the dog pack as if they weren't there as he charged me and never slowed down. after i shot him and we checked the dogs, 2 of them were seriously slashed. dogs may slow down a wounded leopard but he better be hurt pretty badly. in my limited experience, they weren't any distraction AT ALL... as a further aside, I recall people on this forum making fun of Capstick writing in one of his books about following up leopard wearing a long vest made of wired together linoleum and a heavy leather neck collar. doesn't seem like such a bad or far fetched idea now.

The comparison of a cougar & leopard has always intrigued me. I have no personal experience in hunting either.....

While the cougar is about the same size and takes similar sized prey up to elk, that is where the similarities seem to stop.

The leopard seems to just have a huge amount of aggression and real vicious nastiness way beyond his size. People have no problem hunting cougars with a 30-30 or even a 223 with fragmenting bullets in the lungs. The leopard on the other hand seems to need serious damage to the vitals before he gives up.

I understand that a very high percentage of cougar shot in the trees are one shot DRT kills even though the shot is not a classic side on double lung shot. On the other hand, a far lower percentage of leopards seem to be one shot DRT kills despite being a good side on target.

I would be really keen on hearing from people with good experince in hunting both the cats.

Wade Lemon, a well know American PH from Utah could tell us with certainty. He took at least one pack of his dogs, perhaps more, to Africa to hunt leopards. He stayed and hunted a while.

If I recall correctly, he also took some to hunt jaguars in some place south of the border. I can't remember where. It has been a while.

I am going desert big horn hunting with him in the fall. I will call him and ask for his opinion.

Mt. lions, or cougars if you prefer, are pussies (pun intended ), and the whole point of the hunt is the chase and physical exertion of getting to them in deep snow.

My daughter-in-law's uncle guides for them here, and several other friends from work spend all winter running them. Probably tree as many as 50 a season. None are exceptionally aggressive, and may be put up the tree with as few as 1-2 dogs. Most of the guys pack a 22 mag. or 357 mag. for them.

You can assemble right below them while setting up the shot, or taking photos and there is lots of growling but usually they just climb up a little higher. These crazy guys will even climb up closer in the tree to get close-up pics !!!!!!!

Do that with a leopard and you'd sure enough have a handful of trouble, and right now.

the pack I hunted with in Botswana was owned and trained by Judge Jerry, who posts here. He used them on cougars in Idaho and then sent them to Africa during the summer to hunt leopard. a couple of local curs were mixed in the pack( Botswana Browns-ha, ha). they only trailed the cat hounds and sole function was to occupy the bayed up cat until the hunters arrived. the cat hounds had learned REALLY quickly to stay back from the bayed up leopard( lesson learned the hard way) but the local curs, which were about like a ridgeback, were too stupid/brave for their own good and apparently rarely lasted a full season.

I was told that sometimes a PH will turn a coat around backwards and tie the arms around his neck to help with the slashing from the claws.

Maybe Boddington will chime in with is vest. I wonder what a kevlar vest such as chainsaw chaps would do? They are fairly lightweight and allow movement. Bulletproof vests are made from kevlar.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The leopard is a perfect devil who will, when wounded, attack the throats and heads of as many of his erstwhile persecutors as he can reach.

And that can be several.

Plus, while he is biting at carotid arteries, jugular veins, eyes and faces, he will at the same time furiously rake and stroke his hind legs and claws in wicked efforts to rip open and disembowel his antagonist.

All of this must be in the hunter's head before and as he tries to shoot this beautiful and deadly cat off of a carefully chosen branch, above a carefully placed and dangling bait.

Killing a leopard takes skill, but it also takes confidence and judgment.

And those are not qualities that every hunter who may suppose he has them is privileged to possess.

Mike,

You write well and with a sense of purpose.

The hunting of a wounded cat or a simple follow up will make you experience new emotions, emotions which are absent from our normal lives.

A very dangerous game indeed.

a leopard charges at 24 meters per second.

you better make your 1st shot count....

If you're afraid that you may be mauled by a wounded leopard and feel that you need a pack of dogs to help, then a leopard hunt is not for you.

It's a no brainer. If you're scared, shoot plains game or take up needlework. And leave the leopard alone.

quote:

People have no problem hunting cougars with a 30-30 or even a 223 with fragmenting bullets in the lungs.

You put a .30-30 or a .223 bullet through a leopards chest while sitting in a tree...dead leopard.

If I did not have to worry about any limbs to hit and if I could have a different rifle to go to the tree with (model 94 .30-30 fine with me)...I would not hesitate to shoot a leopard with my .22-250 with Sierra bullets. I promise...one of those pills through his chest will kill the everloving hell out of him.

quote:

went straight through the dog pack as if they weren't there as he charged me and never slowed down. after i shot him and we checked the dogs, 2 of them were seriously slashed. dogs may slow down a wounded leopard but he better be hurt pretty badly. in my limited experience, they weren't any distraction AT ALL...

Need to get a better dog!

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:
If you're afraid that you may be mauled by a wounded leopard and feel that you need a pack of dogs to help, then a leopard hunt is not for you.

It's a no brainer. If you're scared, shoot plains game or take up needlework. And leave the leopard alone.

I don't want a pack of dogs. But a good dog that knows what he is doing would help a lot.

1) He will smell the leopard and give up his location long before you know where he is.

2) The right dog will distract him a bit in a charge and a bit might be all you need.

Hunting in the lowveld of Zim, there was a black guy who had some dogs which were used to bay cheetahs, which were subsequently darted and translocated.

One time they treed a leopard, and we were called to ask if my client wanted a cat which was now comfortably perched up in a thorn tree.

He accepted the conditions and we proceeded to where the cat was, shot him and wounded him. The leopard fled from us a feww hundred meters, hotly persued by the dogs and was treed again.

On arrival at the cat, he charged at us, but was held off by a pack of mongrels only 5 yards from us. It felt like ages watching them have a go at each other, but we eventually managed to kill him.

Two dogs were badly scratched, but survived. The others were all fine.

There were comments earlier about leopards not paying too much attention to the dogs when charging a hunter....in our case the dogs made sure the leopard took notice!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
...I would not hesitate to shoot a leopard with my .22-250 with Sierra bullets. I promise...one of those pills through his chest will kill the everloving hell out of him.

Without any problems at all. Cats are thin boned, thin skinned and die easily...... but as with anything else, only if you put the bullet in the right place.

Put it in the wrong place and they get awfully bad tempered, very quickly indeed.

Which is why I like the shooter to rehearse the shot as many times as I feel necessary.

quote:

There were comments earlier about leopards not paying too much attention to the dogs when charging a hunter....in our case the dogs made sure the leopard took notice!!

And you sir...had the RIGHT dogs.

quote:

...... but as with anything else, only if you put the bullet in the right place.

Yep...even a .300 grain Accubond .375 bullet going 2800 fps through his gut...and he is gonna fight.