Now that I have returned from my first elephant hunt, I have been thinking about what rifle I might take when I return. My PH used a 458 win mag and 2 of the other PHs used Ruger 416 Rigbys (more on that in a minute). I used a .50 Alaskan levergun, which did a good job with full penetration on head and body shots on a good sized tuskless. My backup rifle was a Ruger 458 Lott, which I have since sold. The levergun may also be sold to finance the next hunt and/or project. In other words, I’m not opposed to moving things around to get something done.

I would like to do more tuskless and perhaps PAC bulls, which could easily be larger bodied than the tuskless. I also really enjoyed hunting the elephant in heavy cover and would like to do more of that.

I have always liked .50 calibers and have 2 rifles and 1 handgun in that caliber but none of them are ideal for regular elephant usage. I have thought about the 505 Gibbs, which is interesting. If money was no object, I would get a 500 Nitro and be done with it but that’s not the case. I will be shooting someone’s 500 Nitro in a few weeks for comparison sake but thus far, recoil has not been a problem with other .50’s or the Lott.

I have a model 70 stainless .416 Remington in the works. That should be a good medium rifle and I will use it in Alaska but to me, the 416 is as small as I would want to go on elephant that are close in heavy cover. In talking to the PHs, the 416 does not have a great margin of error on head shots and some of the PHs are thinking about going heavier. Keep in mind, I’m primarily referring to tuskless cows in herds and heavy cover which are a lot different than solitary bulls which I found to be much easier to stalk.

The CZ 505 Gibbs sounds like they are not quite right. What is working well in the 50 caliber range? I also like heavy for caliber bullets and would prefer something in the 570-600 grain range to keep the momentum up but I’m not looking for Weatherby velocities. Dr. Robertson’s excellent recent articles on bullet weight and velocity vs. momentum sum up my own perspective and limited experience.

I’m traveling for work in the midwest and have a little time to check things out before heading back to Alaska. In fact, I’m in Springfield, MO a few blocks from Bass Pro.

Howdy,

I don't have a lot of info for you but I will be test firing a .505 Gibbs made by CZ tommorow. I might even take a hack at some Feral hogs with it. I will keep you posted on performance next week.

...I shoot a GMA Gibbs loaded with 600gr Woodleigh bullets @ 2185fps.
This combo has worked quite well on four elephant. None of them were knocked off their feet, but they appeared (to me) as tho they "shuddered" when they took the bullet.

Good luck

Were you also shuddered?

Have you considered a 500 A-Square? This should be a fairly straightforward conversion of a CZ in 416 Rigby. Listed ballistics are 600 gr bullet at 2300 - 2500 fps. This is the setup I would take, were I building a large rifle.

Bryan,

In talking with you it seems budget is a big concern. That being true I would think an adequate but inexpensive rifle would be your choice and the rest of your funds would be squirreled away for the hunt.

I really think the 416 Remington or an off the shelf 458 WM would more than fill the bill.

A couple of things to consider are that big bruisers can be expensive to acquire, very expensive to feed and heavy as heck to carry on a long elephant track. Call me a weenie but a 8.5 lb 4-5-8 is a pleasure to carry but a 12 lb 505 would be about a portable as a truck axle. And finally you reach recoil levels with the big guys that just make precision shooting exceedingly difficult.

Mark

the ruger .458 lott that was sold would have been a good choice.

as long as you're in missouri take a little side trip to warsaw - there's a little 2 man gunshop there that makes all the cz africans. cz send them the actions and they do the rest

Will:

Off the bench, you betcha'...in the field, nope.

A good budget .50 is a CZ550 converted to 500 A-Square. Change the safety to Model 70 style, tighten the extractor, add a barrel mounted recoil lug, change the bolt handle to an obdendorf style and it's a pretty good package. Of course you must get a gunsmith to pay attention to the feeding, but making the conversion from 416 Rigby is not hard.

If you really want a .50, I'll third the rec of a 500 A2. Pretty easy conversion. And a real thumper too!

Cheers,
Canuck

Take a look at a 470 Capstick. Lot's of firepower with reasonably priced brass. Covert a 375 easily.

I'm not out for Ele but but Buff. I've been thinking about the CZ Classic in 450 Rigby. i ditched a standard grade CZ 416 Rigby but in looking over a CZ 416 Rigby w/ fancy stock it was a much better gun. The level of fit and finish is supposed to be higher on the Fancy guns and it appeared to be so. The Classics are supposed to be better too but I know some here have had issues with the 505 Gibbs rifles. I think the Classic in 450 Rigby would be a safe bet.

My suggestion is that you read what 500grains wrote and follow his sage advice.

I did that very thing before it became fashionable.

Thanks for all of the good info. On my trip to Zim for tuskless, I had a 7 lb .50 caliber and a 11 lb Lott. I think 11-12 lbs is about the maximum I could carry long distances.

The various 50's are certainly a strong interest of mine anyway and the recoil (if not redlined) isn't bad if there is some weight to go with it. I remember a friend's 450 Watts that weighed 7 lbs and would bend the tupperware stock every time we shot it. That was just plain nasty!

Those of you who have done the .50 conversions, do you have photos you can post? A friend has a CZ 416 Rigby for sale that would make a good project. ..and I have a certain shotgun he wants.

Here are some photos of mine. Forgive the photography. My wife is good at this. I am not.

mrlexma,

very nice rifle. would you mind saying who built it and what it costs.

thanks.

I spoke with Ed at American Hunting Rifles last week and he had me talked into a DGR were it not for the fact I have 2 DRs on order, one of which I'll keep. He was very proud, rightfully so I think, and very convincing about the 450 Rigby and 500 AHR he builds, both on the CZ action with M70 safety. The 40's are $4495 and the 50's are $4995. Not a testimonial but I've been eying them for a while. If I don't prove to be very proficient with a DR I'll hunt with a custom.

Thanks for the photos. How much does it weigh and what is the capacity?

Showbart,

Those numbers sound reasonable. Do you have to provide the action?

No that's for a complete rifle. I think it's a bargain too. There is a niche market to boot of big bore fans, guys who may not hunt or shoot them but collect them. AHR's biggest rifles in top conditon can resell for more than the new cost. One in a smaller/common caliber or that has some honest wear still bring a near break even price for the original owner.

Charles did you hunt with an AHR rig?

Ed had so much good to say about the superiority of the 450 Rigby over the Lott in particular due to inherent reliability of the case over a straight one, utilizing a better range of bullets and still, like a Rigby, at much lower pressures and without a belt. I could never see having to be wed to the 416 Rigby in the big CZ action with so few options around in a smaller action. So I went with the 416 Rem on a Mauser action for my 40 cal. The CZ looks tailor made for 45-50 cal bruisers and I'm real interested in the 450 which some think handle 600 grain bullets best.

This said there is a Dumoulin mauser in 416 Rigby on the web for what is a good price if condition is there.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Charles did you hunt with an AHR rig?

No -- mine is a Whitworth.

Mine too, in fact, but it's an Interarms Manchester, England. 416 Rem mag wasn't catalogued but it's set up mostly right and it appears to be factory. Still, it needs work. It's mostly right as that which is not perfect seems to have been churned out by a factory line, so to speak. It has most nice features needed and a rather slick nicely tuned action but it needs rebedding. A good base gun for $1100.

My Whitworth is a .458 WM that has been reworked a bit (safety replaced, bedded, recoil pad replaced, trigger slicked, scope holes drilled out to 8x40, stock refinished a bit, fore end replaced with ebony, etc.).

I have not seen one in .416. I wonder if it is a rebarreled .375?

Yukon Delta -- apologies for the hijack.

You could also get a CZ Safari Classic in 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs, although I think there are those that feel the A-Square is an easier proposition.

Safari Classics

Yukon,

Have you posted a hunt report yet? I'd love to hear more about hunting ele with a .50 caliber levergun.

My 458 Win has done just fine on my elephant to date. I ordered a 505 from hein and am wondering just why I did so.

Jason, here is the link to my hunt report.
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=908100007#908100007

Bryan, tell me more about your Hein?

I didn't realize the 450 Rigby could handle 600 grain bullets. Is anyone from here using this combination or AHR rifles in general?

Reloading the .450 Rigby Rimless Magnum

http://www.huntingsafaris.net/articles.htm

My rifle weighs 11.5 lbs. unloaded and 12 lbs. loaded with three down and one up. It was built by AHR.

Thanks for the specs. They look like nice rifles. Speaking of nice rifles...Ryan Breeding...wow.

YD,

I have been pondering your question a bit more, and here is what I came up with.

1. You like lightweight rifles.
2. You don't mind a custom rifle project or a wildcat cartridge.
3. You don't mind recoil.
4. You want a .50 cal or better for nailing elephants up close.

So here are my revised suggestions:

A. .500 A-Square on CZ550 Action.
Purchase a CZ550 in 416 Rigby with the American style stock ($850). Pull off the barrel and have Pac-Nor duplicate the contour of the barrel so that it fill fit right back into the stock. Pac-Nor can thread, pre-chamber and crown the barrel all for about 300 bucks. Using the .416 contour will save you some rifle weight. Set the barrel length at 21" so that the rifle will be handy in brush. Add NECG Masterpiece adjustable rear sight and NECG Masterpiece barrel band front sight. Dovetail the underside of the barrel for a 2nd recoil lug, slide a rectangle of steel into the dovetail and hold it in place with set screws. Then inlet the stock for the 2nd recoil lug and steel bed the action and both recoil lugs. Be sure to relieve behind the tang, and perhaps reinforce the stock at the tang with a u-shaped metal rod and steel bedding. Change the bolt handle to Obendorf. Change the safety to Model 70 style. Have the gunsmith carefully adjust rails and ramp for feeding. Tighten the extractor. Go to the range and schedule a hunt. I think you can get this all done for a budget of $2K and that the rifle will weigh under 11 pounds.

The disadvantage of this setup is that the action is long and the rifle is still relatively heavy. So let's look at another option. The advantage is that this is the easiest and cheapest big bore option out there.

B. CZ550 in .600 Overkill from AHR.

I will refer you to the AHR website for more info (www.hunting-rifles.com), but let's just say that the .600 overkill is the biggest cartridge that can pratically be built on a standard, inexpensive action. Pushing 900 grains at 2400 fps, it's a gun for real men, but expect 13 pounds of rifle to haul around. Also, using such a powerful round may deprive you of the thrill of follow up shots on your elephant.

C. .550 Express on Mauser 98 action. The .550 Express is a .416 Wby case blown out to .550 caliber and then shortened to fit in a Mauser 98 action. Using a slim barrel contour and otherwise following the steps above, with some magazine box work for feeding as well, you would be able to finish the rifle out at less than 10 pounds, maybe 9 pounds even. Further, it would let you launch a 700 grain bullet at 2100 fps.

The advantage of this package is that the Mauser setup is shorter and hander than any CZ550 setup. You might even feel comfortable enough with this arrangement to use it as your Alaska bear gun as well.

Here is an article with a bit of info on the .550 Express:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Numbe...n=0&page=1#Post78060

D. 470MBOGO. This is another excellent budget option that uses the CZ550 action and is even easier to do than the 500 A2 conversion. More info on www.470mbogo.com.

_____________

It's none of my business, but if I were starting with an empty gun safe and didn't mind a wildcat, and wanted to keep the budget under $3K, I would definitely go the .550 Express route. As you know, ele hunting is much walking and little shooting, so I would rather trade some rifle weight away in exchange for more recoil.

If my budget had a bit more flex it in, then I would either get a double rifle in .500 NE, or get a bolt gun from Ryan Breeding or Joe Smithson on a GMA action.

But no matter what big bore I selected, I would also take either a .375 H&H bolt or 9.3 x 62 bolt with QD scope mounts on every safari as a backup. The backup gun would probably see no action except to whack the occasional baboon, but it's important to have a backup, and a bit of .375 ammo can usually be found even in Africa if you look around.

It appears to be lost on us for good that very few of the great ele hunters used big killers like these. J.A. Hunter's 500NE is out classed by all these big bores so that leaves the couple few who used a 577NE. We know what Bell and Taylor used and Wally Johnson used a 375. AND they hunted with minimal or no backup! Some have speculated that before the 1950's more ele were taken with the 404 Jeffery than all others combined.

Dan, Why not the 500 AHR? Alot of good thought went into it.

"The 500 AHR is similar to the 500 Jeffery, but has a longer neck, 25 degree shoulder and larger rim. The rim is thick and fits the claw extractor with precision. The overall pressure of this cartridge is kept low. The ballistic performance is greater than the 505 Gibbs."

It's not lost on me. I have read everything I could get ahold of and continue to educate myself on the past, present and future of elephant hunting and big bore rifles. I love the history of it all.

One thing I believe is that if the veterans would have had access to some of these ballistic options then they would have used them. Many of the people I admire and read about regularly pushed the ballistic envelope of their day. I am sure they were also asked, "Why not use the blackpowder expresses? It worked for your grandfather..." I'm sure Jack Lott was told the same type of thing and the list goes on and on.

Thanks Dan for your detailed comments. Your intial observations of me are spot on. A few of my own...

The A-Square and Wells keep coming up as excellent options and I will continue to consider them. All three of my current .50's use the .510 diameter and so that is a strong preference. I would greatly prefer this over the Jeffries...in fact, I just don't want the hassle of a rebated rim. They make me nervous in a DGR.

The .600's are interesting on a project level but not enough to hunt DG with one. I would like to try one but I don't know anyone who says they can handle follow up shots very well.

The .550 is one that I never considered before this week and merits more thought on my part. I do like the idea of having a 10 lb .550 that handles 600-700 grainers and it does sound like a reasonable project to tackle. The velocity of 2100-2200 is what I normally go for on these projects anyway.

It would be great to have something as rock solid as one of the RB rifles or a Searcy .500. It is possible for me to handle that expense but it would eliminate one hunt. The upside is that you get exactly what you want (especially with the RB) and as has been noted, you rarely see these guns for sale and they hold their value very well. Many things to think about and as you said on the phone Dan, this route for a good rifle can be quite expensive if you go the cheap route.

As to the 375, I have two of those and it remains my favorite caliber for Alaska. I have not used it in Africa yet.

Thanks so much for the great commentary by all and I look forward to more as you have time.

I have a pair of 600AHR's and love both of them!IN fact,that is my first one on their site next to the dead buff!It weighs 9 1/2 pds(scoped 10 1/2)and I dont shoot it with the brake,but it does help out alot,but I dont feel recoil when hunting,so I leave it home!..I also have a 2nd one that weighs 8 3/4 pds with Kevlar stock and 18" SS barrel(For Alaska)Yes,they kick some,but look at all the Hosrepower you get and also quite a "WOW" factor too. ..Ed can build you one for under 5K.He also makes the 585 and the 500 AHR's,just depends on what YOU want to shoot.....In summary,Great rifles built to your specs in HEAVY Caliber,ammo is NO Problem(from AHR)Service is Great and these are a joy to carry and accurate to boot! By the way,my 600AHR's Kick MUCH Less than my 13 1/2 pd 600 Osborne Double?!?!? Tell Ed Tom sent ya!...PS.I may sell the 600 pictured as I have a 700AHR due next month for my next Safari!