I would like advice please regarding what to look for to avoid canned hunts, meaning hunts that involve walking into a big pen and shooting pets. Thank you.

Gunther, welcome to the board!

My first safari was last year, and I had some of the same concerns - traveling halfway around the world, not knowing what to expect, not knowing what type of hunting it will be, etc.

The most valuable tool in the toolbox is references from past hunters. Not just one hunter. As many as you can get.

If you get only one or two reports, it could be from someone who will get a percentage for recommending others.

Or you could get a bad report from someone who wouldn't be satisfied if they shot a world record.

There is a good chance that if you post the name of an outfit on this forum, someone will have been there or at least know the people.

Good luck!
Rick.

Hi Gunther,

I'll also repeat the welcome bit.

Canned hunting really only occurs when hunting Dangerous Game and the best way to avoid it is to only ever hunt Dangerous Game in a true wilderness area such as the Zambezi Valley, or one of the Tanzanian hunting areas such as the Selous or Burigi Controlled Hunting Areas.

Gunther,
As the guys have mentioned some countries are more prone to the type of hunts you're trying to avoid than others.
But my quickest and easiest crude test when visiting with agents or reading websites is to make note of how many out of place animals they hunt. A couple glaring (fictional) examples would be a bongo hunt in RSA or gerenuk in Namibia.
That method may take a little study but it will give you an idea.

Take care,
Kyler

Thank you all. I have been lurking for a year or so on this site, my 4 yo daughter and I have enjoyed Saeed's videos, especially the one's of the gentlemen shooting the big guns. Kate loves Dietre. I hope the video portion of this site will be up and running again soon. I am beginning to collect information on a hunt and have grown steadily suspicious of some of the things I've seen. I don't want to go if I'm going to kill a bunch of farm-raised pets. I am encouraged to hear that such hunts are probably the exception and not the rule.

gunther
Find a good booking agent,then you don't have to worry if you are going on a canned hunt.
My .02
Jeff

Gunther has raised a real question for me and, I suspect, a lot of people. What exactly is a "canned hunt"?. Let me ask you guys in the Western USA about something. This morning I saw a posting on the internet on NRO to the effect that a certain 3000 acre area that was fenced in and had 1000 elk was NOT a "canned hunt". To me it sounded like one. (An elk can roam and live on 3 acres?)I would love to hear from knowledgeable people so I can shoot down this posting, if my instincts are correct. (I never hunted elk but I have travelled a lot in elk country. Don't they come down from the high country before snow to feed in the valleys and don't they have to be fed by somebody which must give a sense of dependency so that they "group" somewheres on fenced in property?)

Gerry, where is that article? Can you give a link? I couldnt find it.

cengel

I am afraid I'm not good enough with PCs to give the link. However if you go to www.drudgereport.com and then click on "National Review" (in the list of newspapers and publications) you'll get its website. In the left hand corner you will see "features" and click on "The Corner". The posting is by someone named Adler and is captioned "Canned hunts" (That's what caught my eye)

I have attached the article below. Hope you folks don't think I am a troll. I know the term "canned hunt" from a ways back. I know the antis try to divide and conquer by pointing fingers at canned hunt enthusiasts and those who use bait (I've got no problem with baiting, by the way) vs the "good" hunters. I know also that they really don't view any of us as legitimate or good, they want to shut us ALL down. Its a great strategy that is used by the gun grabbers as well, e.g., so called assault weapons are bad, hunting weapons are good. Yeah right. They want them all banned!
Anway, enough of the ranting, hope again I didn't come off as disingenuous. I just am not interested in hunting pets.

"CANNED HUNTS" [Jonathan H. Adler]
Animal welfare types (including NR alum Matthew Scully) love to criticize "canned hunts" -- hunts that occur within enclosed areas. The image is always of a big animal, trapped in a tiny enclosure with no where to run. As it happens, most so-called "canned hunts" are nothing of the sort. While fishing in New Mexico, I visited a private game park that offers elk hunting. The park spans 3,000 acres of wooded and hilly terrian and is home to an estimated 1,000-plus elk. Because the park is surrounded by an 8-foot fence, hunts there would qualify as "canned" as defined by anti-hunting types. Yet one can drive through the park and scarcely see an animal. To be sure, one attraction of such parks is that the typical hunter will get ample opportunity to shoot an elk over the course of the standard five-day hunt, but the idea that such an experience is "canned" is absurd.
Posted at 10:50 AM

guenther:

You posted the article that I read too.My question remains - Is that a canned hunt? I don't know. My instinct says, yes, but it's only the instinct of someone who never hunted elk.I do know that if you told me you had a thousand white tail deer on 3000 acres of fenced property I would KNOW that it fits my definition of a canned hunt. Perhaps the problem is that older hunters like myself know that animals in a park (and fenced property isn't much different)behave very differently. If you don't believe me, then watch the National Geographic films of animals in African national parks - and then watch the same species in the real bush. There is a very real difference. (BTW, I don't disagree about using bait - but it's one thing to lure a truly wild animal to bait and another thing to shoot an animal that depends upon man for some of its food during the year - as is the rule in winter in most fenced in properties in the US)

I think if there is 1000 + animals in 3000 acres and he could "scarcely see an animal" the writer was either stupid or blind. Maybe both.

Or maybe just a "promoter".

I would think 200 or 300 deer on 3000 acres would be quite a lot and I'm not talking about larger deer like wapiti.

[ 07-04-2003, 04:40: Message edited by: NitroX ]

I must add my two cents to this because it`s becoming quite common in these parts. 3000 acres and 1000 elk! That is a canned hunt, those elk could not live on that small a piece of land without regular help from people, ie. feeding. This is similar to the ever increasing "wild boar hunts" here where the boar is released into an enclosure the day before the hunt or in some cases the day of the hunt. Some of these enclosures are as small as 50-100 acres.

High Fence + Record books + Canned Hunt = Money

Does not equal Hunting

I don't know if anyone remembers Blood Ties by Ted Kerasote a few years ago. He has been a hunting advocate that has been somewhat accepted by the NPR crowd. I think, however, he has also been a bit exploited by the bunny huggers. Kerasote talks a fair amount about canned hunting and baiting, both of which he is against. This makes the PETA folks happily rub their hands together, thinking they have an ally and mouthpiece. The reality is that, out of one side of the mouth they support Kerasote's views, out of other, ultimately push for a total ban on hunting. I brought up the baiting as an example of their genius in all this. Few, if ANY real sport hunters will agree with the concept of canned hunts. It's pretty unanimously disdained. But baiting is another matter, and a good many hunters might be split on the subject. Conversely, it is easy to see how the non-hunting public can be led down the path to believe that all sport hunters engage in canned hunts, and all baiting, like canned hunting is unsporting, and once they get that message across, they have won another victory against hunting. Just look at the Don't feed the bears campaign gaining momentum in congress right now.

Gunther,
You're right, Kerasote's book is a good one. In fact I gave copies for Christmas last year.

I must disagree that canned hunting is "pretty unanimously disdained". I've been in the hunting business for over 15 years and maybe it's a local social artifact (Kalifornia), but I see (and weed out over the phone) a disturbingly large number of "hunters" that would have no problem with the hunting of recently released animals or animals in small enclosures. Over the years I've been shocked at the number of people purely interested in cheap and fast success. Maybe some of us wouldn't call these folks hunters, but the rest of our society does.

I wish it weren't that way. I blame much of it on a couple generations of hunters being brought up hunting ONLY pen-raised birds. They get out after big game and are overwhelmed at the possibility that they may not get an animal each and every 12 minutes they are in the field.

Maybe I'm getting jaded.

Great hunting with great hunters,
Kyler

A.R. Members,

Last night, my cousin (also a member of this forum) told me about one of his class mates that will be hunting Lion in S.A. This so called hunt is to take place in August, and the real killer is, he was supplied a picture of the Lion that he will be taking! How can anyone feel good about a hunt/shoot like this? It damned near makes me puke!

BOWHUNR

See This: http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002382

[ 07-04-2003, 09:49: Message edited by: BOWHUNR ]

I think most any PH could supply you a picture of a shootable Lion or any other animal for that matter..I could probably get you a photo of any male Lion on any Tanzania concession...I don't see that as a big deal and it proves nothing as to the quality of the hunt...I think your jumping to conclusions just as you did on the other thread.....

Unless you know something the rest of us do not, then your doing your "friend" a great disservice.

Gentlemen,

Would you consider hunting exotics in the US, on high fenced areas, as canned hunts?

Ray,

It's one thing to be able to provide a client with pictures of some of the game on the concession. It is totally different if the outfitter can guarantee that when you get to Africa in August, you can shoot a particular lion and enclose a picture of that lion.

Regards,

Terry

Guys, there are VERY few places in RSA where you can hunt a truely wild Lion. The best most places can offer is an area adjacent to one of the National Parks where you will be shooting a Lion that's wandered (or perhaps been baited) in from the park. These animals are very accustomed to vehicles and to a lesser extent to people............. If you want a truely wild Lion you really need to hunt it in a true wilderness area such as the Zambezi Valley or the Selous Reserve.

Gotta agree with Bowhunr on the lion hunt. If I booked a lion hunt and the PH sent me a picture and said that this is the lion you are going to take, I would just tell him to go ahead and shoot it in the ear, and send me the hide, I'm going fishin'.

T. Carr,
Wake up big guy...Any PH worth his salt will send out his trackers and locate a Lion he is having to buy from the Govt. He owes it to his client to be able to say there are a couple of nice lions on that concession..Our trackers got back to Dar last week and they found a great lion for a client that is hunting in Sept. We bought the permit and were ready to go..they could have photographed him and his girls.

If you book a Lion hunt with me, Pierre arranges for the purchase of a Lion permit on say the Rungwa, then he sends his scouts out to see what kind of quality the Rungwa has this year..They look the Lions over and if they locate a good one then they report back to Pierre..It would be easy enough to take a picture of that Lion, we don't but we could, A picture means nothing...THAT IS NOT A GUARENTEE THE LION WILL STAY THERE FOREVER. but there is a 99% chance he will be on that concession when the hunter get there...the concession is quite large and maybe as big as some states, so you still have to hunt, locate and bait the lion...

I sure would not want to book a lion hunt on just any old concession that had not been pre scouted....that is why so many hunters come home without a lion and an empty pocket book, because they were hunted on a concession that never had a male lion in the first place. Same with Leopards they are located prior to the hunters arrival...These PH's don't pay the Tanzania govt. for animals that do not exist...You know plainsgame exists everywhere, same with Buffalo, but when you lease a concession then you must know if it has the alloted cats your paying for and you even want to know if it has the buffalo you are buying...

A lot of concessions in Tanzania and other countries have had the hell shot out of them and are basically worthless. they are ran by less than honest people that cannot produce...and when it comes to LIons the anti goes way up...

Yes, I could supply anyone with a picture of the best two lions on our concessions as our trackers keep pretty good tabs on about where they hang out...the tough part is teaching the tracker to take the picture.

I hope I have painted a real world picture here, it isn't a canned hunt, its on 300,000 acres more or less, All the good safari companies know about where the good cats are hanging out and they see them throughout the year along with some big tuskers and great buffalo, they make a mental picture of that location, might even mark it on a map,...that is what you pay them to do.
To have done less would be criminal IMO....

I never gave it much thought before but, Ray is correct. Some Guides do the same thing for Brn Bear in Ak. They look their area over before the Season so they know approximately how many and size of the Bears. They can't guarantee a specific Bear but at least they have a general idea what to expect.

I agree with Ray that the outfitter hunting lion and elephant should have an "inventory" of what is on offer in his area, if he does not have a clue on this, he is not properly doing his job. That is not to say that these animals will not move in response to environment, weather and forage. You still have to get out there and hunt them.

Going back to the elk hunt on 3,000 acres, I consider that size parcel to be too small for that species. That opportunity might not be strictly a canned hunt, but it is more shooting than hunting.

jim dodd

The issue of "canned hunts" can only be expected to grow over the next few decades as hunting pressures increase in ever diminishing natural habitats. However, the focus should be on the question of fair chase, not the presence/absence of fences. Fair chase can only occur in situations where the game has a reasonable probability of eluding the pursuer through the advantages of space, terrain, or cover. In other words, we would probably all agree that a large game population confined to a small space does not constitute fair chase, whether confined by a high fence, natural barriers of terrain, or altered land uses leaving only islands of habitat. On the other hand, a "normal" concentration of game within a very large fenced enclosure should be just as much fair chase as the same population hunted in a comparable sized natural habitat. Remember that natural habitats are not of infinite size either. If one is hunting a natural population of elk on a 30,000 acre ranch, does it really matter whether there is a perimeter fence. Chances are that neither the hunter nor the elk will see or be affected by the fence. If the fence enters the hunting equation, then fair chase may be in question.

Even the term natural population is somewhat of a misnomer anymore. Most western deer and elk herds tend to winter in low-lying valleys where they feed heavily (although uninvited) on haystacks and other agricultural produce, in part because these natural wintering areas have been largely converted to agriculture (just as they have been for the past century). Does this mean that these animals which are partially dependent on and accustomed to being around humans during the winter are not the subject of fair chase during the hunting season? I think not.

We each individually have to establish in our own mind the point at which factors such as habitat size, fencing or terrain barriers, etc. remove fair chase from the hunt. This threshold may also differ for various hunters and their abilities. For example, fair chase for a handicapped hunter is probably not the same as fair chase for many others.

Atkinson:

It really bothers me that an outfitter could supply a photo of a lion to a client that would be the actual lion that the client would be able to shoot. I have respected your posts and as an old man too old to hunt in Africa again, I still have the idea that hunting lion was supposed to be a matter of tracking, spike camps, and waiting for him to circle back to lay an ambush. Am I wrong? Certainly I know that some of the outfitters use bait stands and that there are hunters happy enough to shoot a lion over bait. Personally, if I was coming 8000 miles to hunt a lion, I would want to really hunt a lion and not just shoot some poor beast who simply is looking at me. Of course, that's me. (P.S. I think that's how you and your PHs feel too)

Gerry,
I am sorry that you feel that way but in all honesty 99% of Lions shot today in Africa are shot from baited blinds...

A good Ph should know every Lion on his concession and getting a photo should be no more of a problem than shooting one IMO...that is no guarentee the hunter will get his Lion...The PH has a lot more time to get the photo than the hunter does to shoot him...Nothing has really changed since the old days however....A photo is simply a photo of one of the animals on a concession.

I'm not high on blind hunting, but it is an acceptable practice throughout the world and it is legal...but I will suggest that a wounded Lion in the middle of the night with a couple of flashlights and two rifles might give you a different perspective of shooting Lions at night from a blind, that can get ones adrinaline up...I recall one night when a PH had a wounded Lion end up in the back of his truck tearing up some of the boys and caused all kinds of hell..The gamescout through his loaded 404 at the Lion as it crawled into the truck, figure that one out.

A few old time tracking hunts are available and certainly these often end up in a charge, and like you that would be my choice for hunting Lions, but it only works in certain terrain, and these hunts are bloody expensive...

I think the bottom line is photography is little different from actual hunting..I know where a big bull elk hangs out in Idaho and I'd bet dollars to donuts that I could find him and photograph him...

Bottom line is the type of hunt has little to do with anything, the circumstances of the hunt have a lot to do with it....

Ray,

He was given a picture of the Lion that he WILL be shooting! How could I be much clearer. Not pictures of Lions in the area. Christ Ray, everyone knows that S.A. lions are for the most part farm raised. You don't call hunting them canned?

You kill me Ray! When someone says canned, you say not. When someone says not canned, you say canned. I would love for you to supply me with photos of my Cape Buff, Lion,Leopard and Elephant hunt in Tanzania! Those photo's might just get you a booking.

BOWHUNR

I am in agreement with BOWHUNR on this. Not only a photo of the lion he is to shoot, but only needs to allow for 3-4 days for this part of the safari before going on to Zim. Now even if you are baiting, I would think that it would require more than 3-4 days to bag a free-ranging lion. Is this time frame realistic, for those of you who have hunted lion? Keep in mind, this is SA, an area not exactly known to have a pride of lions behind every bush.

Since I made my comment earlier I would like to add that high fence does not constitute a canned hunt but the size of the area and the animals themselves. Small ranches, and I`ve seen them here as small as 80 acres ,and animals that are released into these enclosures the day of the hunt, is a canned hunt. Most in Eastern NA have a hard time realising that although high fenced most places in Africa are huge compared to here. As far as knowing the animals availiable on any concession, thats just good scouting isn`t it. Isn`t that what you expect from your PH? I would be quite upset if my PH had no clue what kind and quality of animals were availiable on his concessions. It would seem to me that he had not been doing his homework ie. throughly scouting the land.

I may be wrong, but don't most parks that sell hunting rights and assign a quota assign a specific animal to be shot in the case of Lion or Rhino? The only thing that I would question would be the 3-4 day time frame.

Gentelmen, I think we need some clarification here! I think there is a misunderstanding of the phrases from African outfitters, and PHs, by folks from the USA in particular, and Other countries in general.

The common speach of a booking agent/PH at the Safari show, will be: " So you want a lion? I have a GOOD lion I can sell you for less than anyone at this show! What other game do you want? Oh you want a Leopard as well, well I have one I can let you have for $1500, if you book the lion!"

What you understand is, he has these animals in a cage waiting for you to arrive! But, that is not what he said.

What he said is, he has good lion on his concession, and he will sell you the PERMIT to shoot one, for X dollars, if you book today. Now he finds out you want to take a Leopard as well, sure he says, he have lots of Leopard on his concession, and he will sell you the permit for $1500,which is cheap because you are booking the lion, on the same hunt, IF you book a minimum of what ever the amount of days at what price he has to make to make a profit, on his lease, of concession, and the price he paid the Gov for the permits he's offering you, and the cost of camp staff, and fuel/food for your stay. None of this is aguarantee you will get a cat at all, even if he shows you a picture of a fine lion on his concession. The word selling means to some the animal belongs to the PH, but this is not the case, he simply has the exclusive right to the permit you need to shoot him, and is willing to sell that to you, for a price.

I think, however, the deal that started this string, may be a put, and take lion, but simply because the PH showed a picture of a lion, and said you can take this one, doesn't mean you will. I may only mean he has a concession near a Ntl Park where he sees a lion come out regularly into his concession to hunt, or water, and he has a permit to take it if possible, and feels sure you will get a shot at him.

Ray:

It truly saddens me that so many lions are shot over bait from blinds as you mention. I hasten to say that I never hunted lion and my one and only hunt in Africa was for Cape buffalo. I am proud to say that my PH trusted me enough to put me within 35 yards of a Cape buffalo and I did drop him. A lion scares me more than an elephant (which I saw and was dumbfounded at their size) and I regret that I never got back to Africa to hunt one. My outfitter was a "lion man" and I guess he brainwashed me but I always wondered why such a magnificent looking beast and such a fearsome animal (I heard stories about that scuttling rush close to the ground and how easy it could be to shoot over him)looks pathetic as a dead beast in the photos.

Ray:

Forgot to say in the previous post that I am "Gerry" who posted earlier. The cursed machine refused to recognize me so I had to register all over again. (I used "416" to upgrade from the 375 that I actually used)

Saeed:

Personally, I would consider that "hunting" any animal outside of its natural habitat to be a canned hunt and I don't care if it's on a million acres and unfenced. I bet you feel the same way. If a real hunter wants to hunt an 'exotic" animal, let him go to that animal's habitat and hunt him on the animal's own ground.

Gosh Gerry,

I guess we will have to stop pheasant hunting immediately in the USA.............

....and that herd of 19,000+ free-ranging blackbuck antelope that was introduced here in Texas in the 1930's. There are more running free here than in their "natural" habitat.

That is a pretty big sword you are swinging, amigo.

Good Hunting,

Bob

[ 07-13-2003, 21:10: Message edited by: Bob in TX ]

Bob in Tx:

Since some of my mother's people were from Texas, I have to be polite in my response! Birds ain't exotics in the sense that I think Saeed meant. (I did laugh to myself about pheasants since I shot them in the wild in my state of NY since I was 12 so I'll give you that point! )

C'mon Bob! You know the 'exotics' ranch hunts are for us dumb damyankee "tourists". Don't tell me that you folks in Texas think that's hunting! If so, then I fear for the future of the country!. The Texans are better than that, I hope!

Gerry,

Some of your people may have been from Texas, but you don't know what you are talking about. I am referring to the free-ranging blackbucks that roam the Edwards Plataeu region of Texas, not the high-fenced exotic hunting ranches.

There are also a large number of free-ranging Aoudad (Barbary) sheep in west Texas, all on open range, low-fenced ranches.

In New Mexico, Oryx and Ibex have been successfully introduced and have large enough populations to be hunted as big game in the state.

"Blackbuck antelope are native to India, Nepal and Pakistan. In India and Pakistan they are called by various names, Haran, Kaliyar and Veli-man. In Nepal they are known as the Sasin and are the only known animal of their scientific genus. In the 1930's several conservationist developed a stocking program for these graceful animals on several Texas hill country ranches, in an effort to save this species from extinction. As it turns out, these efforts worked so well that in 1971, these ranchers were able to start a reintroduction program to the blackbuck's native home range on the Indian sub-continent.

Another, unexpected, benefit from these breeding programs is that there are now enough blackbucks, over 25,000 in Texas alone, to allow for sport hunting. Today, the size of this introduced population in Texas exceeds the numbers of the "native" and reintroduced animals remaining in their original range on the Indian sub-continent."

Bob