Before any subject is discussed it is always a good idea to firstly define exactly what is being discussed. So let us attempt to define Put & Take shooting. Here a quote from an article by Gerhard Damm, an internationally well known and respected conservationist. Link to Gerhard Damm's article.

“ Canned Shooting and Put & Take

Shooting and killing captive bred or habituated (in other words, human-imprinted) big-game animals in commercial killing areas where a person with a gun or a bow is guaranteed a kill. ‘Canned’ means that the animal is impaired in its natural inclination to flee from its pursuer either by means of drugs or by restraints such as small fenced enclosures, cages, ropes, chains, or by habituation to human presence. Often quite incorrectly referred to as ‘canned hunting’, canned shooting has nothing to do with hunting and those who practise it are not hunters. Canned shooting has been much publicised in the media and has given hunting a bad name in the view of the general public. Put & Take refers to the releasing of captured and bought animals into fenced enclosures for the sole purpose of having them killed by paying clients. The game owner has no intention of building up breeding stocks or viable populations. The animals are released and killed within a short time after release. The paying client does not necessarily know that the game owner practises ‘Put & Take’. Provincial and national legislative bodies, professional and amateur hunting organisations and nature conservation agencies are under an obligation to finalise adequate legislation and rules preventing these practices.’ Emphasis added to the last sentence is mine.

As I am not only a hunter, but a Professional Hunter, I really feel obliged to actually do my bit, by this posting, to prevent Put & Take shooting. With this posting I hope to inform hunters who are also potential clients in South Africa about the practice, so that they can make informed decisions if they are happy to shoot such Put & Take animals as their trophies. Incidentally, watch this space, as more postings about the same or similar subjects will follow.

Why does some Hunting Outfitters partake in the practice of Put & Take shooting?

Money! Very plain and simple – they wish to make more money! How? Hunting Outfitters (HO’s) make money by offering overseas clients hunting opportunities. They provide a service for which they are perfectly entitled to charge a fee and make a fair profit. Nothing wrong with that at all! The money they actually get is by charging a Daily Rate and Trophy Fees. In Economics 101 you will learn that the more days they have clients for and the more trophies the clients shoots the more money they make. OK? Simple really: Money Rules!

Where does the HO’s get the trophies for their clients to shoot? To answer this simple question, let’s start by first just defining what is a “trophy animal”. A workable definition would be: A fully mature male of the species which has horns [or tusks] typical, or larger than typical, in size and shape of the species.

Now let us for simplicity of explanation assume that a certain area is managed by 100% perfect herd management. There is no management change that will result in an increase in the number of trophy animals produced in that area in any given year. If the HO using all the trophies produced by the area wants to make more money he has to get more trophies. This is done by simply buying suitable live trophies at one of the dozens of annual live game auctions held all over South Africa. The live trophies are then released [or Put] in the hunting area and the overseas clients shoots [or Takes] them within a short time. Simple; Put a trophy in your hunting area, & let a client Take it soon afterwards!

Incidentally I quite agree with Gerhard Damm that the clients often, or even mostly, do not know that the HO they are hunting with makes use of live bought trophies in such a Put & Take manner. Potential hunting clients to South Africa, please take note!

In good hunting.

Wingshooting in France is predominantly "put and take", but every hunter is perfectly aware of it. Is the problem the practice, or whether or not the hunter is aware of it?

I did a put an Take pheasant hunt in Minnesota.
they did only put down 20 birds we did only take 11

On high-fenced game ranches, essentially anywhere in Africa, where at least some of the game animals are transported from one area and released onto the ranch property- - is this considered "put & take"? Also, again on high fenced operations, even if there are "naturally" breeding animals there, but some others are released there from away- - is that "put & take" Curious as to others' thoughts...

In my home State---Pennsylvania, the animal rights groups have been attempting for years to introduce legislation to ban all the bird breeders and game farms and interestingly it all started through pigeon shooting propaganda.

Pigeon shooting is a 200 year tradition in Pennsylvania. For those AR members that do not know: During a typical pigeon shoot a competitor shoots 25 birds that are released from a trap (one at a time). You must kill the bird in a ring that surrounds the trap. You get 2 shots at the bird. Easy you may think? Try it....it is the hardest shotgun sport.

The Animal Rights Left Wing Liberal Groups just can't handle these private pigeon shoots, but they want the rest of us accept their homosexuality, pedophilia, drugs, and women wanting to be like men. PETA and Animal Rights groups protest our pigeon shoots and have millions of dollars to annoy us in the courts. They even have high tech remote control helicopters that buzz and film the pigeon competitions. So far, several helios have been legally shot down.


The good news is that the PA Farmers Association and Game Breeders Association have joined our ranks and together we are able to politically neutralize the animal rights wackos. Currently, we have held them at bay, but the reality is that ultimately they will prevail by attrition.....you cannot win in courts/legislation against hundreds of millions of dollars.

In addition, the Animal Rights organization's goal is to make hunting, trapping, archery, and fishing illegal not only in Pennsylvania, but in all of USA and Canada.

If Pennsylvania falls, then the rest of us will go with them.


If anyone is interested and wants to help preserve our hunting/shooting sports please contact The Pennsylvania Flyers Association ..contact person Allan Roberts 570-362-2802.

100% of the funds raised goes into fighting these animal rights group in court and legislators.

Thanks,

dale

quote:

Pigeon shooting is a 200 year tradition in Pennsylvania. For those AR members that do not know: During a typical pigeon shoot a competitor shoots 25 birds that are released from a trap (one at a time). You must kill the bird in a ring that surrounds the trap. You get 2 shots at the bird. Easy you may think? Try it....it is the hardest shotgun sport.

It did not seem so hard for me.
I used to shoot them with a 410!
I remember a few shooters getting hot under the collar for that

quote:

It did not seem so hard for me.

Saeed,

You are welcome to any of our shoots. You will be my guest. I would highly recommend that you use a 12 gauge. 7 shot 3-3/4 dram is the max. allowed. If you want ...bring the .410....and lots of money.

dale

Dale,

Thank you for the invite, I would love to do it one day.

They introduced pigeon shooting at our club in Houston when I was there in the early 80's.

I tried a 12 gauge, and found it very easy to kill them.

Then I tried a 410, and usually managed to kill all my birds.

I grew up using a 410 for everything, a 12 gauge just makes things that much easier.

I shot trap for a couple of years, winning Rookie of the Year, and making an average of 99% on singles, made the All American Trap Team.

On my second year I averaged 99.5% on singles, won the Texas State Championship, won the Champion of Champions for Texas, and the American Doubles Champion of America.

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
...... They even have high tech remote control helicopters that buzz and film the pigeon competitions. So far, several helios have been legally shot down. ....

Sounds like they are donating bonus targets for your shoots.

Dale, when Saeed comes to your shoot I'd like to be there so I can buy him in the Calcutta. Even if he's using the .410.
Saeed, do you have difficulty switching between rifle and shotgun shooting?

Gentlemen, I've only been "one of us" for a few years, but even for the Crater I don't think I've ever seen the subject deviate so quickly.

Saeed, are you a better shot than your brother?

From what I have seen thru various discussions on here and other sites, in my opinion, the bigger issue concernin g Put & Take Hunting, seems to be centered more around the concept that it is referred to as "Hunting".

The aspect I see, is creating legislation, that limits what a person can do on land they own. Some hunters feel that the Put & Take operations should be closed down, so legislation is enacted making that acvtivity illegal. A precident has been set. The landowner now has to figure out some otherr way to make a living off the land, so they start raising cattle for the slaughter market. Well, all that game they had is useless now, so it is killed off, all that native vegetation is useless so it is cleared and replaced with improved grass patures. I think this cycle has alrerady taken place in parts of Africa and the U.S. already.

Just because a place offers Put & take hunts, no one is forced to do business with them, just like no one is forced to drink alcohol or smoke cigars.

Another aspect, and one I do not like to think about, is that hunting/shooting on private land may be all that is left to us at some point in the future. At least here in America, Public Land is just that, Public, and the % of the Public that access it for hunting is declining annually and there are people working non-stop to try and get those lands closed to hunting.

Just an opinion, but I see just another divisive arguement that keeps hunters from joining forces to work against the anti's.

If a person does not consider it hunting, and I don't, then don't call it hunting and don't do business with such places. At the same time, do not look down on people that do not have any hangups going to such places, and do not tell them that they are not hunters.

As long as anyone is buying guns/ammunition/takling trips to foriegn countries and shooting animals whether on private or Public Land, it does not matter, because "Hunting" will stay alive.

If we start outlawing methods or equipment, simply because it does not fit our individual concept of what is or is not hunting, ALL hunting will die, and I would like a show of hands as to how many people want to see that happen.

As much as both put & take & IMHO trapping, are something I dislike.
If I throw in with the ones that want those things made illegal, as soon as that is accomplished, they'll come for me & my way of hunting.
I don't like it, but must confess to having done it,(thats how I learned to dislike it, I was discusted with myself afterwards)

quote:

They introduced pigeon shooting at our club in Houston when I was there in the early 80's.

Saeed,

Since the 80's the game has significantly changed. Competition has become a lot tougher and the birds are released from steel traps that spring- launches them and simultaneously delivers an eclectic shock. The birds really take off most of the time.

In addition, I believe ( but have no factual data other than personal observation) we have genetically enhanced the pigeon species because the birds that get away are the breeders and the dead ones are removed from the gene pool. Over the last decades I noticed the birds are healthier and stronger flyers.

At the bigger shoots there usually is a 28 gauge race. I think the 28 gauge is fantastic bird gun.


dale

Wow!

This has got to be a hi-jacked thread record! Andrew posts about "big game" put & take hunting and the first 2 replies are about bird hunting and the 4th reply discusses pigeon shooting in Pennsylvania and seeks donations, thereby completely re-directing the replies that follow. Even Saeed jumps in on bird hunting.

All this on the African Big Game Hunting forum. Like I said, WOW!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Pigeon shooting is a 200 year tradition in Pennsylvania. For those AR members that do not know: During a typical pigeon shoot a competitor shoots 25 birds that are released from a trap (one at a time). You must kill the bird in a ring that surrounds the trap. You get 2 shots at the bird. Easy you may think? Try it....it is the hardest shotgun sport.

It did not seem so hard for me.
I used to shoot them with a 410!
I remember a few shooters getting hot under the collar for that

Show off, you train OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALISTS, you should have hussled them

quote:

Since the 80's the game has significantly changed. Competition has become a lot tougher and the birds are released from steel traps that spring- launches them and simultaneously delivers an eclectic shock. The birds really take off most of the time.

THATS HILARIUOS. . . should try it with Guinea fowl SPRING LOADED "CANNED" GUINEAS
this "PUTs" a new "TAKE" on bird hunting for me.

quote:

Wow!

This has got to be a hi-jacked thread record! Andrew posts about "big game" put & take hunting and the first 2 replies are about bird hunting and the 4th reply discusses pigeon shooting in Pennsylvania and seeks donations, thereby completely re-directing the replies that follow. Even Saeed jumps in on bird hunting.

That is because everyone is tired of Andrew beating this dead horse.

Is it a dead horse? Or is it ust a case of a individuals that feel hunting should be something more than just the killing and the trophy? A lot of us say that making the kill is the "Icing On The Cake" of the whole experience of a hunt, but how many of us really get bummed out if we don't make a kill? I don't like the idea of eating "Tag Soup", but I have done it, and that is why I am not so picky. To me the trophy is in the whole experience and any animal I kill is a trophy. To this day and I have killed a few white tail deer and a few javelinas, everyone I kill is a trophy to me.

The problem that has to be worked around, is that not all of us view hunting in the same manner, but to keep the sport alive we all have to accept that fact.

I’m sorry, but saw the need for a bit of editing after some had already made logical replies, please forgive if the editing makes your reply look funny or out of place.

Wink, If everyone knows what is going on, I have absolutely no objection to others doing it.

Dave, I also took part in a Put & Take pheasant shoot in New York. You beat us: They put out 20 and we only got 9!

joester, The definition of Gerhard Damm states clearly that the animals are “…..killed within a short time after release…..” Further on in my posting I use these words: “……Put a trophy in your hunting area, & let a client Take it soon afterwards!….” I do not wish to motivate what is considered as “soon afterwards” but it should be at least longer that the time the tranquilizing drug used in many [most?] cases to calm the animals during transport have totally worn off. If the relocated animal is shot while still under the influence of such tranquilizing drug, well, then Gerhard Damm’s definition makes it a Canned Shoot! This is much worse that a Put & Take shoot. Without much motivation other that saying “my gut feel tells me” that one full year is sufficient for a released trophy to get to know the area into which he was released. I would personally be happy to call an animal released a full year ago a not Put & Take animal. Problem is, how do you know? How to recognize a Put & Take animal is no easy task! I will say more about it in a follow-up posting.

Dale, I feel a bit like an idiot: I’m taking on a very mighty and extremely well-funded, but fortunately at this point a very loose and disorganised, association of Put & Take hunting outfitters. I know that I have a long and hard fight to win. And win I will, in the end!

Crazyhorseconsulting, How I wish that I can spend a few days with you in a hunting camp! Glad that you have seen that I refer to it as Put & Take Shooting! By a very long shot it vaguely resembles hunting, in that an animal gets killed with a hunting tool, but that is where all resemblance ends!

I have absolutely no grandiose ideals of stopping or closing down all Put & Take hunting. Money Rules! And there will never be any change to that! The best that I can hope for is to have the required knowledge transfer to help hunting clients make informed decisions about the issue.

bwana cecil, Am I correct in deducing that you were suckered into shooting a Put & Take trophy? The whole objective of this and subsequent postings is to as far as possible prevent that from happening.

LionHunter, I really do not mind this thread getting high-jacked a bit, or even a lot! It keeps it near the top on the first page – where I want it to be!

African Hunters Quest, Why don’t you read what CHASA has to say about this and accuse them of beating a dead horse?

Crazyhorseconsulting, You and I will get along real well in a shared hunting camp! I’m going to jump my own planning of theis campaign a bit and here and now classify hunting outfitters into one of two categories: There are those who see what I post and realize the threat that my posting holds for their hunting business. Then there are those that see what I post, and see that as an opportunity for more business for themselves.

Then the first that realize that my posting holds a threat to their way of making money lot can be subdivided into two groups again: Those that wisely keep their mouths shut, and the others!

In good hunting.

quote:

Crazyhorseconsulting, How I wish that I can spend a few days with you in a hunting camp! Glad that you have seen that I refer to it as Put & Take Shooting! By a very long shot it vaguely resembles hunting, in that an animal gets killed with a hunting tool, but that is where all resemblance ends!

Life isn't over for either of us, and if I can ever wrangle it, I would enjoy my first trip to Africa to be hunting Kudu with you Sir.

I have hunted inside high fence places, both commercial and state run game management areas where hunting was actually used as a tool, and in those it really was hunting. I have only been successful a very few times. On the commercial places, the only way something is not killed is because it either does not meet the hunters expectations or the "hunter" can't hit his/her ass with both hands

However, one response I will never forget on this type of discussion was made by Saeed. I can't remember his exact wording, but in the end, we are all just shooters. My addition is that some of us like too prolong the final act and enjoy the entire play, while others prefer to skip to the final curtain as soon as possible and get back to socializing at camp.

quote:

Is it a dead horse? Or is it ust a case of a individuals that feel hunting should be something more than just the killing and the trophy?

You are free to feel what ever you want, but dont sit here feeding the anti hunting trolls with more ammo.
Hunters need to stop sowing division in the ranks.

Andrew, I object to you championing this cause because you use it as a way to promote your style of hunting. We understand that you like to hunt free range game, but the way you have painted the picture in the past has lead many on this site to think that all game inside a fence in South Africa are simply tame hand reared pet like animals.

You go a long way towards rectifying the misconceptions you have created n this post, but its not gong to undo the damage you have done.

The fact of the matter is that some people do place game in very confined spaces and then shoot them. That is however a very far cry from what goes on in most 99,9999999% of all other opperations in South Africa.
When you can present a factual document without bias then it will be great to hear about it.
It pains me to say it but you are actually hurting hunting in South Africa more than the canned hunters by painting a one sided picture without real facts

AHQ,

You are telling Crazyhorseconsulting that he should not sow division amongst the ranks of hunters. Are you trying to impose your ethics on him? Should he change his views to be in line with what you think is correct? If his sense of ethics differs substantially from yours there is already division amongst the hunters. It is then each hunters’ free choice to become associated with the ethics of either you or of Crazyhorseconsulting. Or another version entirely! Please note that I’m not advocating that either of the two of you change your ethics – just accept that there is an ethics-based divide between the two of you!

I take note of your objection about me trying to promote my style of hunting. Will you in turn please take note that I intend to ignore it!

It is quite true that I have objected to the dishonesty associated with Put & Take shooting in the past, but please be a bit more specific and quote the relevant offending posting or part thereof.

Any person who objects to me championing my preferred style of hunting is of course also most welcome to champion his/her style of shooting. I do not mind a bit of competition at all! Anyone is free post a shoot offer in the relevant hunting offers section of this forum where he/she state exactly how many trophy quality males of each species that you offer will ordered and that their delivery will be timed for the arrival of the shooter, so ensuring that he can have a reasonable expectation of shooting trophy quality [pre-measured] examples of 10 different species in two days. That way the tag-soup loving shooter will know what he is offered and the hunting outfitter will be perfectly honest about the whole shooting spree! Just think how much money you can make in a short time!

I know that by stating the figure 99.9999999% you meant to indicate "the vast majority". But, scientifically by giving 7 decimals you imply that: Either there are at least 1 000 000 000 "operations" in South Africa of which only 1 is guilty of misconduct! Alternatively you imply that there fractions of “an operation”. Who is now painting a one-sided picture?

Just incidentally, I object to you using the words "canned" and "hunters" in that sequence one after the other. That is just feeding the trolls and giving true hunters a bad name by associating them with canned shooting!

I'm accused of hurting hunting, pray do say say how?


In good hunting.

Do what ever floats your boat but I personally avoid put and take hunting at all costs.

465H&H

quote:

I take note of your objection about me trying to promote my style of hunting. Will you in turn please take note that I intend to ignore it!

quote:

I'm accused of hurting hunting, pray do say say how?

By plastering this drivel on an international forum you know is frequented by the Anti-Hunting crowd. Well done Andrew!


Ignore all you like, but some of the "hunting" you have offered to people on this forum was shot in someones "back yard" out of a far less than wild population, so how about you jump of that high horse. And no, I wont trash the poor sods hunt on a public forum to prove my point.
You too have erred so go beat yourself with that stick you are brandishing.

Now as I am not stuck in Soutpan and don't have a years supply of brandy to drink, I am going hunting; any bloody how I like.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:

Ignore all you like, but some of the "hunting" you have offered to people on this forum was shot in someones "back yard" out of a far less than wild population, so how about you jump of that high horse. And no, I wont trash the poor sods hunt on a public forum to prove my point.
You too have erred so go beat yourself with that stick you are brandishing.

Now as I am not stuck in Soutpan and don't have a years supply of brandy to drink, I am going hunting; any bloody how I like.

Yes I have offered quite a few individuals who regularly post here on AR hunting of populations that are very far from "true wild" animals. And I will do so again. And again. And you will not stop me. And the people to who I have offered such shooting will all tell you that the nature of the hunt and the non-typical behaviour of the game was disclosed to them at the same time as the hunting was offered.

I will even quote a bit out of the very first e-mail message sent to two particular clients. I asked them ".......would be interested in doing some hunting for impala and blesbuck under rather special, but still ethical hunting, circumstances? These are not canned at all, but a lot of impala [and other game] are kept on a relatively small property surrounding a luxury trout fishing hotel & lodge [http://www.xyzxyz.co.za/] in a rather densely populated area near Krugersdorp. Hunting must be done discreetly so as to not upset any of the hotel guests."

Now, if you say that is not fully informing a client about the nature of the hunt and the area it sure as hell paints the picture that you so ineffectively wanted to blackmail me with. This quote was in the very first message about the hunt sent to them! In subsequent messages the size of the property and the fact that the animals that they will be hunting have been living in the area for many years and that no new deliveries of trophy animals have ever been made. Absolutely no Put & Take shooting, those trophies were all born on the property and grew to trophy size there.

The estates manager chose to effect population control by the option of discretely hunting trophy animals on foot as an alternative the having them caught and sold to some [unnamed, but it could very well be ?guess who? ] Put & Take hunting outfitter. This real Put & Take hunting outfitter will then offer these very same trophies to his clients, who are not informed about the nature of the animals they are offered to hunt.

Hunting at that particular venue for animals that are in very good natural – not road delivered – supply has a very good chance of success. In fact the estates manager is busy planning suitable wheelchair paths to make bow and even rifle hunting by mobility impaired hunters possible. That will be offered soon with full disclosure about the nature of the hunt.

I am on record as stating that it is not so much the Put & Take shooting that I detest, it is the dishonesty of hunting outfitters who do not disclose the nature of what they offer that really upsets me!

Do you wish to get a list of the names and e-mail addresses, or the AR usernames to which you can send PM’s, of each and every single client that I've ever guided on a hunt in, as you call it 'someone’s “back yard"’? You can then ask each and every single one of them if I have fully disclosed the nature of my offer to them before the hunt?

Hope you enjoy your hunt, and have success!

Not south Africa, but central Texas. One of the few private high fence hunts I ever attemped, that still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, was for "feral" hogs. To make a long and disgusting story short, having hunted feral hogs on low fence properties, it did not take me long to figure out the game that was being played. I advised the 3 folks that were with me as to what was going on, and that if they wanted to stay and finish the days hunt they could do so but I was finished and was not going to shoot anything. The "feral hogs" they had still had the spots in their hair where the sale tag number had been stuck on them and they would lay right next to the road and let us drive right by them.

My experience here in Texas with the put and take operations, is that they are most popular with folks that are far more concerned about the kill than the hunt. If an operator is open and honest with all information regarding the hunt conditions and the conditions the animals have been accustommed to, then that should be good enough, and if a person accepts that and does the "hunt" anyway, it was their decision.

Andrew

While we all like to hunt and fish...our community must stand together.

While you have a displeasure with stocking game animals on a hunting parcel, others do not. There has to be support for both camps.

Fishing was the start of put and take and the community has embraced this culture for over 100 years. The stocking of game animals has only been in the past 40 years or so.

You embrace open range...do you ever use a hide for your clients? If you answered yes then then that take you out of open range and spot and stalk and you actions fall into the put and take crowd.

quote:

Yes I have offered quite a few individuals who regularly post here on AR hunting of populations that are very far from "true wild" animals. And I will do so again. And again. And you will not stop me.

Andrew
I have no intention of stopping you. I am pro all hunting that brings in conservation dollars.
Regardless of that, I dont have to stop you, you are doing a fine job of stopping yourself and killing your own industry. How you may ask, by spending so much time thinking up more ammo for the anti hunters to use.

If that was not your intention then so be it, but none of what you are writing helps hunting in any way.
I like to keep things simple, so if its not helping then it must be detracting.

My hunt was great thanks.
The Eastern Cape is such a beautiful place.
HQ

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
........................................I am pro all hunting that brings in conservation dollars......................................


I like to keep things simple, so if its not helping then it must be detracting.

..........................................

Yes, AHQ I quite agree: Keep things simple! Do I correctly understand what you mean?

quote:

I am pro all hunting that brings in conservation dollars.

Now as you disagree with me about the ethics of Put & Take shooting, I’ll follow for once your example, and call it Put & Take hunting.

Put a trophy animal on your hunting concession, & then let a client Take it, within a short time after it’s release.. Simple!

It is an activity that brings in foreign currency, or conservation dollars. So it must be regarded as good for South Africa. But is it good for hunting?

Remember to keep things simple: Don’t complicate matters by telling your client that you have Put the trophy there for him to Take. Should the client maybe have read my postings about it and asks you if there is a possibility that he gets a Put & Take trophy, you again keep it simple and say: No!

That’s it: Keep things simple. It brings in conservation $$. The client got a trophy, and he’s happy. You got $$, and you’re happy. For you, a perfect situation!

Do a lot of that Put & Take shooting. Each time you do it more much needed foreign currency comes into South Africa. Bring conservation dollars in, that is good for South Africa. The forex brought into the country lands specifically firstly in your pocket! That is good for you.

But is it good for hunting? What about the client who, much later, even years after his South African with you safari hears about Put & Take shooting and then realizes that it is extremely unlikely to take 6 out of 7 trophies right next to a fence in normal hunting. He now knows that he was taken for a sucker. Now he swears to never hunt behind a fence again. He swears to never hunt in South Africa again. Every time he sees his Put & Taken trophy on the wall he is bitter all over again. He is bitter because he can simply not bring himself to admit that, despite quite a bit of effort put into his due diligence preparation, he was caught for a sucker.

AHQ may I ask if you have ever had to sooth over this situation with a client at a campfire? I had a German client, one of a group of 9 Germans, who found out from one of the freelance PH’s working for me about Put & Take shooting. He realized that his previous hunt, 2 years before then, with another HO, was in fact a Put & Take shoot! Hans was furious and wanted to there and then stop his entire hunt me there and then! He was as livered and red-in-the-face-angry, as only a German can be! Not with me, or my innocent young freelance PH, but mostly with himself and the whole South African Put & Take hunting industry! This particular client has then vowed to never hunt in South Africa again.

With considerable effort I, with the help of the concession owner, calmed things down and we ended up parting on the best of terms after we had convinced him that his hunt with me was not Put & Take at all! The feedback that I have is that since then [1987] he has hunted in Namibia every year or second year. He is a very wealthy and sociable guy who drags a lot of friends with him wherever he goes. Now he does not come to South Africa due to some HO’s Put & Take practice in 1985! Wonderful for our industry, isn’t it?

I want to rather tell openly about the despicable practice and hope the potential clients will book wit any one of the many hunting outfitters who does not practice Put & Take shooting. That will be good for our industry. It will also be good for the client, because he will have truly hunted and earned his trophy in what he, the all important client, considers to be an ethical manner. He will not, years after his hunt and him writing a very favourable hunting report about his safari with one of them, perhaps learn about why so many of his trophies were shot right next to the game fence, and then be plagued by feelings of doubt about the ethics of how he really hunted. Even worse, he may realize that he did indeed hunt a Put & Take trophy and forever after feel guilty about his action, unable to ever look at his mounted trophy without a stabbing feeling of guilt! Then the doubt that the hunter will have about his action: Should I just forever keep quiet about it? Or should I, like bwana cecil did, admit the mistake, and then perhaps get the feeling of guilt and remorse lifted a bit?

If I were to say that a hunter who now realizes that his trophy was in fact a Put & Take animal and admits it with disclosure of who the hunting outfitter was will probably feel better because in doing so he is helping other hunters from making the same mistake.

But will that not be ammunition for the Antis? Is my posting on a decidedly hunting forum, bad for hunting? Or should I band together with other hunters in a united front? Or should I band together with other non-ethical shooters just so that we can present a united front against the Antis? If I were to keep quiet about Put & Take and so help to present a united hunters’ front against the Antis, do you really think that the Antis will then never find out about Put & Take?

There are good numbers of AR members that share my feelings about the practice. They can speak for themselves, but will only say that I find the shooting of an animal soon after it’s release extremely distasteful.

I'm proud to say that with Andrew McLaren Safarisno client will ever be exposed to Put & Take shooting. If a client ever hunts on a cancession where the owner may have introduced additional male animals - the client will be fully informed. For example: It will be clearly stated in his Remuneration Agreement that "...springbok with a RED plastci ear tag are introduced new blood rams and they carry a heavy penalty charge if shot!"

Andrew

as mentioned you have made steps to remedy the perception you have created about all hunting in South Africa. Just read how many snide comments flow every time an SA hunt is mentioned or an offer is posted. That is largely due to the perception you have helped create.

I would guess that the number of outfitters shooting recently released game are very few, but that is not the perception you created.

Anyway, the fact remains that there is no real benefit to be gained through what you have posted. In fact you have admitted to having robbed another hunter of their enjoyment through your efforts. Now forgive me if I am wrong, but neither you nor your appy PH were at the gents previous hunt, so how could you have know that it was recently released game?
Perhaps you need to be more careful in wielding the sword that the internet gives you.
Now, back in the good old days getting your work published required it to hold some substance and to be to the benefit of the greater public interest. Now days you can paint the wall with any manner of excrement if you have an internet connection.

In short I think you have been irresponsible in what you have posted in the past and have unfairly damaged the reputation of South African hunting.

I hope I dont offend you in what I write but as a South African outfitter you are an ambassador for our country and need to be held to a higher standard; your actions need to be questioned as they are unfortunately viewed as being from a reliable source.
If you were being objective I think you would have painted the picture with greater care.

Regards
HQ

Andrew,

What a great post! I want to thank you for helping to enlighten hunters on put & take hunting (shooting) operations in South Africa. I have read with great interest all four of your topics titled "South African Hunting Information" parts 1 thru 4, and all of the replying posts that followed. I strongly feel that this is a topic that should be discussed.

There are those who feel that anything that is said that is critical about some aspect of hunting, whether it be in Africa or North America, is detrimental to all of us who enjoy hunting. Many people, even here on AR, keep saying, "You're only fueling the antis with this kind of talk." I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. Are we all to keep mum when we see or hear about dishonest or unethical practices within our hunting community, for fear that "talking about it will give fuel to the antis"? I think not! There are probably anti-hunting lurkers on every hunting website. Should we always walk on eggshells for fear that we will give fuel to their cause? No! This website is OWNED by a shooter and hunter, and it is FOR shooters and hunters. But it is a public site and anyone can read what is written here. When an outfitter or PH is not completely honest with his client, I think this is unethical behavior and hurts the hunting community. Yes, I know, when the word "ethics" comes up, people start to see red and jump into the fray, claiming that no one has a right to dictate anyone else's opinion on individual ethics. I agree, but what we are talking about here regarding put & take operations is outfitters being honest with their clients, and not so much about personal hunting ethics. Personal hunting ethics are just that - personal.

Other topics have been discussed here in the past regarding questionable practices in our community, and will continue to be discussed in the future. Let me give an example. About a year ago the topic of wild lion management, lion aging, and immature lions was discussed in detail by Aaron Neilson, ledvm and others. During that process some feathers got ruffled, at least one hunter felt insulted, and if I remember correctly, some posters claimed that Aaron and others were giving fuel to the antis by talking about this topic. But Aaron and others pressed on, and the result is that these guys succeeded in educating many of us here on AR as to what a mature wild lion was and how to tell a mature lion from an immature one. I am much better educated about wild lions than I was 2 years ago, thanks to people like Aaron, who went to great effort and wrote many passionate posts on the subject.

Now we have Andrew McLaren making an effort to discuss and expose put & take hunting that occurs on some properties in South Africa. Thanks to Andrew, I feel that I am much better educated about this subject than I was before he wrote these posts. I didn't interpret his posts as being aimed at hunters, but at the operators who partake in this type of hunting (shooting) operation. I can't speak for everyone here on AR, but I would assume that the vast majority of us hunters would rather have the experience of a fair chase, NON put & take hunt than a put & take shoot. I don't think Andrew has hurt the reputation of South African plainsgame hunting one bit. In fact quite the opposite! I think he has made a great effort to help insure that hunters are better educated in choosing an outfitter, PH, and landowner when they hunt in South Africa. I don't think Andrew has painted all plainsgame hunting in SA with a broad brush, or portrayed it in a bad light. Frankly, I doubt that Andrew has turned off a single member of AR to hunting plainsgame in South Africa.

Andrew, I think you were absolutely correct in stating that some hunters later regret their hunting experience after they learn they had been duped by a put & take operation. I'm an American hunter who's been to SA several times to hunt plainsgame. Let me give what I think is a typical scenario of a put & take shoot. An American hunter, after much dreaming and saving of funds, finally books an African plainsgame hunt, either after meeting an outfitter at a show, or reading internet websites and advertisements. He is hunting only plainsgame on his first safari to "get his feet wet" in hunting in Africa. He may not even know enough to ask the outfitter if the properties have self-sustaining wildlife populations, if they are "put & take", or much else for that matter. He's mostly concerned with the animals he wishes to hunt and the quality of the accomodations. He goes to Africa and has what he thinks is a good hunt, and almost can't believe what great luck he had, and how plentiful and easy the game animals were to hunt. When he comes home, he is now somewhat "addicted" to hunting in Africa and wants to return to do it again and hunt some other species. He reads everything he can on African hunting to better prepare and educate himself. Maybe he joins a hunting website and starts posting on it. After he learns more and more, he now starts to reflect on his first safari, going over in his head the scenario of every animal he shot. It is only THEN that he starts to wonder if some of those animals were put & take, and if his safari was indeed fair chase. He starts to look at his memories and mounts in a different light, and becomes bitter because he's starting to feel he was duped, and that his efforts and money went into a completely different type of hunt than what he thought he was getting.

Does this sound like the type of scenario the South African hunting industry wants to support? I doubt it. I'm not implying that the above scenario is typical of a South African hunt, but is typical of a put & take shoot. I know the vast majority of operations in South Africa offer high quality fair chase hunting. Maybe there are some hunters who are aware they are on a put & take operation and are perfectly fine with it. I do not include myself in that group, and I think most hunters would rather not have that type of experience. I feel that hunters should know exactly what they are getting into, and the outfitters should be honest with their clients. I personally will probably never hunt a lion, because my pockets are just not that deep. But I will continue to hunt plainsgame far into the future, much of it in South Africa. For me it is affordable and I truly enjoy it, and it gives me a reason to keep returning to Africa. Having taken kudu, bushbuck, and nyala, among many other animals, I'm somewhat addicted to the spiral horns in particular. I will continue to support South African outfitters, PHs and landowners, and I appreciate anyone who makes an effort to improve the hunting experience in that country. With his posts and intelligent discussion, I think Andrew has done just that, and I personally think that Andrew is a great ambassador for his country. Thanks Andrew!

Glen

Andrew:
I agree with you 100% and have written of such practices in the past. Here is the intro to an article of mine that was published in the African Hunter:

Where have all the hunters gone?
Long time passing.
Where have all the hunters gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the hunters gone?
Behind high fences every one.
When will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?


The year was 2002. I booked a plains game hunt to South Africa after four trips to my beloved Zimbabwe. After a pleasant (but rather long) flight to Johannesburg and a greeting from my PH we drove to a ranch north of Pietersburg. The next day we were up bright and early and, as I stepped into the Land Rover, my PH said to me, “Cal, today I’ll drive you up to a nice waterbuck for you to shoot.” My reply was, “No. Let’s drive out a bit, find some tracks and follow the spoor on foot and then, if I see a good representative animal, I will shoot.”

My hunter looked at me as if gut-shot with surprise. Then he offered his hand and said, “You are the first American I have guided who wants to actually hunt.” His reply was an eye opener. Upon returning home I began a long look into all aspects of our sport (or activity) and what folks do to hunt less and kill more.

“It’s not the fault of the hunting industry over here,” my PH went on to say. “We only do what the clients want. If they are not happy they will go home and say so and we take a loss of revenue.” What he said was probably true.

I reprinted the above to illustrate the point of the PH: "We only do what the clients want." I understand you and AHQ are in a bit of a pissing contest here but (to me) it is a chicken/egg question as to which came first. Perhaps they evolved together. The put and take industry would not work unless they were supported by put and take hunters. And both, in turn, are supported by organizations that hold conventions for, and give awards for, put and take hunting and trophies. That said, I don't have, nor do I see, any solutions. It does illustrate our culture's attitude of instant gratification and reward without effort--and it begins in the USA in school! (Said truthfully from a retired teacher).
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Perhaps they evolved together. The put and take industry would not work unless they were supported by put and take hunters. And both, in turn, are supported by organizations that hold conventions for, and give awards for, put and take hunting and trophies. That said, I don't have, nor do I see, any solutions. It does illustrate our culture's attitude of instant gratification and reward without effort--and it begins in the USA in school! (Said truthfully from a retired teacher).

The above should be the epitaph for this entire discussion.

This part especially, should be carved in stone:

quote:

It does illustrate our culture's attitude of instant gratification and reward without effort

One of America's legendary sports figures started the ball rolling on the concept of a person always winning. Vince Lombardi is credited with the phrase, "Winning Isn't Everything, It Is The ONLY Thing".

Well, in hunting, for "Everyone" to be a winner, everything has to be stacked in their favor, and because of that the kill has became the most important aspect, and the hunt for too damn many folks has become peripheral.

Many "Modern Hunters" are more concerned about the gear/gadgets/kills than about the experience.

Us older guys who are on our way out are looking back more often these days as we circle the drain, with sadness concerning how hunting and how people feel about it has deteriorated, when it is simply a case of evolution in action.

People in this day and time have simply found ways to cut corners or "improve" in their minds, the ways and methods of "hunting" animals with out what is now concidered time consuming work. it is simply easier to pay as much or more to go to a ranch, drive out and shoot a trophy class animal and be back at work in a couple of days, than spending a week or more in the field, hoping to see something worth(????) shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
Wingshooting in France is predominantly "put and take", but every hunter is perfectly aware of it. Is the problem the practice, or whether or not the hunter is aware of it?

Wink, for large game animals behind fence I would say the problem is both. Where birds are concerned if they can fly they are free to keep going when missed, not so with put and take large animals.

IMO, The fence doesn't necessarily make even large animals canned, however!

As long as put and take is not involved then, again IMO, if there is a good balance of SIZE of area, Cover, escape routs, natural food and water, and good bedding areas, with the animals free to mo0ve about, and breed naturally, on property that is not smaller than the game's natural range it is not canned! The other fact is, there is the owner's responsibility to make a client aware of all the facts when he books.

RSA gets a bad rap unjustly IMO, because most simply do not understand what "CANNED" really is.

............................All only one man's personal opinion, and worth not one penny more than the guests here paid for it!

I am not going to go into definitions-

but the sad and simple truth is that "raised animals" is in the long run the salvation of many species--there are several species that are more abundant in the US than in their native habitat

Its sad and I wish I had been in Africa a hundred years ago , but for species to survive they must have economic value.

There is no shortage of Beef cattle--why is that?

I would love to see a huge demand for Lion burgers at McDonalds--then I would know that there would be lots of lions for a long time.

At some point -get real, join the 21st century and help the rest of us preserve SOMETHING.

SSR