Question for you 404 fanatics out there. Are any rifles currently offerred in this caliber from the factory?

"404" means "file not found" in internet geek speak...

or ""duh"""

LMAO
jeffe

[ 05-06-2003, 00:16: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Any comment from the 404 Jeffery group, or according to Jeff the "duh" Jeffery?

I have been digging around in the .404 Jeff history over the last couple of weeks. In 1993 the US situation was much brighter: Kimber had announced it for their M89 BGR, Ruger had done the same for the No. 1 and the M77 RSM, and even Navy Arms was supposed to be building a new Parker Hale rifle in that caliber. None of that came to pass.

Now a decade later no major manufacturer even lists it in their line.

Part of the trouble is the past conflicting standards for ammunition. Both bore sizes and headspace can be problems.

By all accounts it is a wonderful cartridge, it would be way cool to see it make a come back.

jim dodd

I think Dakota offers the .404 in their African model. Ruger tried, but after making a few, quit on the idea. With the trend in .404 based carts., you'ld think someone would reintro. this great old cart. I'm having one made to satisfy my weakness!

Here is the .404 Dakota from the Dakota Arms website. It is indeed a blown-out case.


jim

If, as I suspect, you are asking whether there are any factory rifles made in 404 Jeffery, then the answer is "no".

Ruger made it for a short time, but thre was too much variation in the head spacing of available ammo and gave up. (this is what I have been told by a couple of gunsmiths)

I spent quite a while looking for a 404 Jeffery before I decided to have one made. Count on investing at least $2,500 if you go this route.

I think that Sabi rifles out of RSA makes a rifle in 404 Jeffery
Sabi Rifles

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Sabi does make a 404...FN made the 404 for a few years and there is still a few of those floating around, along with a few 375 H&H's...but they are damn hard to find..They are absolutly excellent rifles and sought after...I will buy any FN 404 I can find.

Hyem will sell you one, but they are more expensive than a custom rifle..

Ruger went bad because they didn't do their homework, they hired some bean counters instead of gunsmiths and they used the wrong reamers for the American trade..so they scraped the deal and used a thousand silly excuses as to why it didn't work, they even confused their own gunsmiths, that should tell you something..since lots of gunsmiths can put together a nice 404 that will shoot anybodys ammo...

I hope it never comes out commercially, it is an exclusive club of individuals, and we kinda enjoy haveing something different, and yes were bloody snobs

Based on what I have learned about the .404 Jeff so far in my investigation (see "What's with the .404 Jeffery anyway?" in Gunsmithing), for any .404 Jeff project I would figure out what ammunition first I am going to use first, and only then have the rifle built to shoot it. (Did I get enough emphasis on what is first there? )

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=006434

I have been in the Sabi store in Nelspruit, and it was great to poke around and visit their back room and handle their rifles. But they are building in RSA, and you would have two federal systems in the way of taking delivery of your rifle. Make no mistake, you can do it -- it just isn't fun. There are a lot of good gunsmiths over here in the USA (for Americans) who could build you a .404. Some even post here.

jim

"There is nothing you can't do with a .303 and a .404."

[ 05-07-2003, 19:23: Message edited by: HunterJim ]

Actually Jim, you can shoot all factory ammo in a proper 404... Apparantly the ammo thats different is Kynoch and its almost impossible to obtain...the bullets are .418 I believe, but they shoot well in a .423 bore and visa versa BTW, according to Lothar Walther...

The problem, as explained to me, is Kynoch brass was too long and wouldn't chamber in some US spec. guns and in many European guns. That is a Kynoch problem, not a 404 problem as I see it..I have not experienced these problems in any of the many 404s that I have built and sold or owned or traded for, so I'm just not real sure where the "real" problems are, unless in the minds of some writers or due to some poor gunsmithing....I assume this could be a problem with any caliber and have seen many examples of this type of thing with many calibers.

I do recall some magazine stating that Ruger order reamers that were out of specs to the norm.

Jim- the 404Dakota makes a lot of sense. More easily built on standard length actions than the longer Jeff, efficient case design. Very similar to the 416 Howell which I have considered building. Argueably the optimal DG cartridge & rifle combo.

Ray,

Apparently my gunsmith is not one of the "thousands" because the only factory ammo that works in my rifle is Kynoch. In fact, he admits that he reamed my rifle specifically for Kynoch ammo. This is why I have had so much trouble.

So now, I simply "roll my own" and I don't have a problem.

Ray, GAHunter & guys,

I have a new appreciation of both the .450/.400 and the .404 Jeffery from the research I have been doing lately. Gregor Woods wrote a particularily insightful article (Man/Magnum Oct '01) that discussed the whys of the .404's success.

First the .404 is great because it is the magazine rifle version of the .450/.400 -- which was and is all the cartridge that a hunter needs. You get a big old bullet at enough velocity, not too much, for wonderful killing ability at very low recoil. This is important to understand.

The original .404 was intended by Jeffery to bring that capability to the magazine rifle, which it did in spades. Author Woods thinks that all of the various British Empire Colonial administrations issued rifles in .404 Jeffery to their staffs. Notice that the .404 Jeff started out with a 400 grain bullet at 2,150 fps. Again enough killing power at low recoil.

The bullet diameter in the .404 Jeff is not a real problem because the round operates a very low pressure. The headspace problem though is acute, pun intended.

Forty is enough gun. So do I build a .400 H&H or a .404 Jeffery?

jim

[ 05-08-2003, 01:27: Message edited by: HunterJim ]

Jeffery, Jeffery, JEFFERY!

Like Tevye says "Tradition. Why stick to tradition? Well, because it's traditional, that's why"

Welcome to the club HunterJim!

Now you know why I love my 450/400 3inch so much!
I have a low pressure round that gives me a long, great penetrating .408, 400 grain bullet. Recoil won't beat you to death. Small enough for plains game and big enough to handle the DG situation!

For my hunting it is the best all around double rifle round there is! It is not a magic round. It won't do it all, but if you like shooting a double as much as I do, it is a great round. It has what the .458 caliber will never have, a bullet designed for penetration without kicking you all to Hell!

Woodleighs for the real tough stuff, Hawks for light game.

I'm saving my money for a 404 Jeffery magazine rifle. I tried to make off with Ray's at the Dallas show two years ago, but he wouldn't take his eyes off of it long enough!

[ 05-08-2003, 02:16: Message edited by: Rusty ]

Jim, have Lazlo "cobble" one together for you. He is currently working on one for me built on a M70. I hope he has it finished before the end of summer so I can take it to Montana & shoot something w/ it.

I have 3 of them now and will take delivery of another soon. The thing I really like about the round is the fact that you can pick the recoil level that you can personally handle, 2100-2500 f/s with 400 gr. bullets and they are truly effective on game big and small. Start off at the original loading (2150 f/s) and if you want, load it up a bit as you get used to the recoil.
Dakota makes a rifle in 404 Jeffery for those that want one on a magnum length action. It also makes a 404 Dakota on the standard action. The neat thing is that the 404 Jeffery was more often than not, made on a standard '98 Mauser action thus saving the expense and the weight of the Magnum Mauser action. The cartridge is shorter than a 300/375 H&H. People would think you crazy if you went to Africa with a 416 Rigby loaded with 410 gr. bullets at 2150 f/s, but not the Jeffery.

Jim and all,

A couple of things come to mind when building a 404 Jefferys that will save you the grief that I entertained early on...

1. Use a Clymer reamer, then you can shoot RWS, Norma, Bell and yes even Kynoch, but Kynoch would be my last choice of ammo or brass. RWS is about the worlds best brass IMO.

2.Use a wide 404 box made for that round..from Blackburn...

3. Use a .423 barrel, I like Lothar-Walther cut to the Holland and Holland contour..Woody has those specs off one of my guns and will soon be making it a option rather than a special order..

4. I use a standard M-98 action as I can get the proper wide drop box from Ted Blackburn..Again that box is all important to feed and function.

5. Any weight from 8 lbs. up is usable in a 404, without undue lip fluttering after each shot and it is mild as can be at 2150 FPS, even in my 7 lb. Oberndorf Mauser..

6. I shoot mine at 2400 plus with a 400 gr. Woodleigh, 380 gr. Northfork, or any solid..That takes about 90 grs of IMR-4831 and that is plumb mild...95 grs will give you in excess of 2500 to 2600 FPS depending on barrel length and 53,400 PSI..about max in most rifles of good quality and the equivelent of a 416 Rigby loaded to 2700 FPS and with the 423 larger cross section and the 416's better SD, the about equal out, at least no Buff or Lion could tell the difference...When I compare the 404 to the 416 Rigby that is no light praise...

A versitile caliber indeed, the 404 and a real killer in the African bush, a world of nostalgia, no belt, a case that feeds like grunt through a goose and its only draw back is that it often needs trimming because of its body taper, that makes for the easy feeding...Maybe RCBS will make a X die for it...

That's the good, the bad and the ugly of the 404 Jefferys, my choice of all big game rifles..and as most know it is argueably the best of the bunch...

Rusty,

The only double rifle I have shot is a .450/.400, and it was a pussy cat. That was on a range, and it was easy to fire a right and a left standing and ring the 10" gong at 100 yards.

A friend of mine has a 20 ga shotgun weighted to handle like his .450/.400, and he shoots slugs through it for practice. He has a field walking course, and shoots grapefruit for targets.

jim