I have just recovered one of Mike Bradys new .458 caliber Cup Points in five (yes 5) five-gallon water buckets.

Id like to share the photos with you all but dont know how to post pictures.

I know this was covered on the old site, but would someone be kind enogh to walk me through this?

I also recovered the 425 grain and 485 grain Rhino bullets.

Mike Bradys "triad" of bonded SP, and monometal CP and FN should put everyone else out of business.

Stats on the CP are: 2,547 fps muzzle velocity, 20 yards, center hit, tracked straight through all buckets! 436.5 gr retwined weight, 0.614 average diameter with dimensions being .733 x .56 x .549. Average Frontal Area 0.296 square inch. Penetration 46 inches. 13.6 cubic inch permanant wound cavity.Length fired 1.212 inches. Unfired 1.397. 13.5 grain fragment. (It lost less than 1/3 of expanded mushroom).

I believe this has a slightly deeper HP than the 404 and 470 Ray tested last year.

Photo is impressive if I can just learn to post photos!

I shot two composite groups at 50 and 100 yards, and the triad of SP, CP, FN all shot into less than 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards and 1/2 x 1 inch at 50 yds with express sights.

Why would you use anything else?

Andy

I bought some of the .458 450gr Cup points from him at the Dallas Safari Show. I am going to try them in my 450 No2 double rifle.
I figure my velocity will be around 2150/2200 fps or so depending on the powder charge that regulates these 450 grain bullets with the 480 and 500's I shoot in it now.
When I get a load worked up I will try and shoot a pig length wise.

can't wait for the pics--

I too will be ordering some of these to see how they shoot--chris

Andy,

Go to Imagestation.com and set up a free account.

Then have imagestation upload the picture.

The click on the picture. Right click on it and click PROPERTIES. Then block copy the location of the picture.

Add a post to this thread and past the location of the photo in your post. Finally, surround your photo location with [IMG] and [/IMG].

HEIMANN,
YOU SAID A MOUTH FULL!!!!! I HOPE.

.

Alf,

I am not interested in academic value. I have just been trying to determine what the best expanding bullet is for my rifle, a 450 Dakota.

I have tested the bullets under exactly the same conditions. Maximum velocity for their bullet weight, the exact same target, 5 gallon nylon water buckets. Its not science but it does correlate to bullets recovred from game for expansion and weight retention by 90-95%.

The 400 grain NF was fired at 2,712 fps, 425 gr Rhino at 2,657 fps, 450 NF SP at 2,547 fps, NF CP at 2,530 fps, 485 Rhino at 2,441 fps etc.

I just worked up as hot a load as I would hunt with using that bullet and fired at 20 yards ina worse case charge stopper scenario.

the better bullets I retested at 100 yards.

The Rhinos were a disapointment (78-88% weight retention and blew off 3 out of 4 or 1 out of 4 expanded propellors) and far inferior to the NF or original TBBC but better than the current TBSpeer.

I am surprised you equate a FN solid to the expanding bullets. They are not similar at all.

I have recovered 20 premium 458's now.

Saeed has promised to post my test results on the On Line Magazine some day.

Best wishes, Andy

Please post pictures of the bullets NF CP
I would like to see what they look like when fired.

This is a picture of my cup point solids, design no 1, shoot into phone books.
This design is not the final design
The cup will be made bigger.375=9,5mm and I will loose the boat tail to gain more weight.
The caliber is .510 and they weigh 594 grn.

The two bullets to the left is the square hole bullets design no 3.
The phone books where to hard on them



Cheers,

André

quote:

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Originally posted by Andy:
I am surprised you equate a FN solid to the expanding bullets. They are not similar at all.

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While FN solids and expanding bullets are different, we must recognize that an FN solid is designed to provide the great depth of penetration of a solid, while increasing tissue disruption to provide rapid blood loss like an expanding bullet.

Charles,

How did you make those work?

I had a thumbnail imported but they were tiny, like thumbnails.

I put the [IMG] and [/IMG] brackets in front of and behind the images and cut and pasted them. It worked on first image but not second.

Andy

quote:

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Originally posted by Andy:
Charles,

How did you make those work?

I had a thumbnail imported but they were tiny, like thumbnails.

I put the [IMG] and [/IMG] brackets in front of and behind the images and cut and pasted them. It worked on first image but not second.

Andy

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I deleted my attempt to put the pictures in because they weren't coming in reliably from Imagestation which is not real fond of direct links. I took your photo links and deleted the thumbnail extensions (.thumb.jpg), which linked to the full-size pictures. However, they did not seem to work work so I pulled it.

Let's try one again:


Is that showing up?

Nope, try putting your pictures on photobucket/

Hog Killer

Andy,
Your pictured expanded cup point is what I have come to expect on game such as Buffalo, Wildebeeste and Zebra...

I am satisfied the cup point is as good as any soft or solid on game...at least it suits me fine, it expands quickly and evenly and gets me quick kills.

Andy,

The NF cup nose I have fired into game look like yours but with a little less expansion. But I was only pushing them about 2300 fps.

Andy

quote:

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PS Jeffery, was your water soaked newspaper uniformly wet? It looks like it was too dry.

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I used dry phone books. They are too hard

I see no pictures FIX it

Cheers,

André

I see no pictures of Andy's recovered bullets either. Imagestation is not doing too well here lately. I have the same problem. Everybody seems to be recommending photobucket lately.

Perhaps a link to an album where members of Imagestation can view the photos?

Cup points normally look like a half expanded Nosler with the front blown out...they expand to the bottom of the cup and expansion stops and they usually look like the perverbial mushroom with a long heavy stem that pushes them for penetration.

My .470 cup points expand to .550 to .600 at 2000 to 2100 FPS on any animal it seems..My 404s at 2300 to 2500 expand to .600 almost everytime and some to .625..These measurements are from live and a few dead or dieing animals. They penetrate like a solid for the most part...

The Northfork softs such as a 404, 375 or 416 Rem. will expand to .800 normally to as much as .900 with more than enough penetration to get to the other side, but much less penetration than a solid. The softs always come to rest fully expanded on the off side skin...

I prefer the full penetration and two holes that I usually get with the cup point..however being a dyed in the wool bullet digger, I don't get to dig much with the cup points unless I shoot them end to end and sometimes thats a pass through.

RIP,

Try this. Its my photo gallery on imagestation. I tried cutting and pasting from photo bucket without sucess. Guess I am just computer challenged!

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2131666134

This seems to work. I added some more photos to it including Rhino, North Fork softs at PB and 100 yds, water bucket test stand, 100 yd target with NF SP,CP, FN, and recovered 400, 450, and 500 grain bullets.

Photo captions should tell you which is which.

Andy

Hi Andy,
Thanks! That works great. In fact, these photos are now copied to disk and zoomed in and out every which way.

It looks like 2600 fps is the perfect velocity for a North Fork CP, and that is a good thing to know. I don't have any CP's in .458, only .423/380gr. Will have to get in touch with Mike to see about the CP's in other calibers.

Is it a soft or is it a solid? I think it is a very solid soft.

The photo link is working so maybe this cut and paste from my On-Line Magazine review will also.

450 grain North Cork Cup Point.

The North Fork Cup Point (CP) is an expanding solid, the only bullet really like it in the world. The CP is based on North Forks monolithic FN solid. The CP is just 0.027 inch longer than the FN and has a shallow concave hollow point machined into the meplat. The side walls of this wide but shallow HP are thicker than a conventional HP, there fore the name, Cup Point. The FN and CP are both made from solid copper. They have five full diameter driving bands which spin the bullet, a sixth in the middle of the bullet that helps align it in the bore, and a full dimension heel. The bearing surface between driving bands has been reduced to .4465 diameter. I examined several recovered bullets and this reduced surface area does not contact the rifling. As a result, the FN and CP have less pressure than conventional bullets and required 2- 4 grains more powder charge to reach a similar velocity level as the other 450 grain bullets.

The CP expanded to an average .614 caliber and blew off less than 1/3 of the expanded mushroom entering the second water bucket. Compare this bullets dimensions and expansion with the Barnes X line and you will see that Mike Brady’s innovation offers more penetration and retained weight than the 450 grain X bullet, and more penetration than the 500 grain X. While the impact velocity of this bullet was relatively high, it is within the envelope of a 300 gr/.375 or 370 gr./.416, and I would expect similar behavior from these CP solids. The CP split the first water bucket completely in two like the better soft points, a top to bottom split in the rear of the second bucket, and blew out ½ of the base on the third. Damage in each water bucket was proportional to velocity. The CP should offer a deep and predictable wound profile which is certainly appropriate for large dangerous game hunting. It closely resembles the wound profile of a .416 Remington with the reference standard 400 grain Swift, but with one full bucket more penetration. That’s saying something. It produced more damage to the third bucket than any other bullet.

Despite it’s great penetration, the permanent wound cavity created by the CP is less than all but two other expanding bullets, but 50% greater than a monolithic FN. That is exactly what most users would hope for. While the CP is a very conservative bullet design it is well executed and at slightly less velocity would probably have maintained 100% weight retention and 0.73 caliber expansion. The CP equaled the penetration of the 400 gr Barnes X, but did so with 25% more FA. It tied with the light weight Barnes for the greatest penetration of any expanding bullet in the test. African hunters who have traditionally loaded one SP followed by a magazine full of FMJ’s for buffalo hunting will hail this bullet as the most significant innovation since smokeless powder. It is both an expanding bullet and a solid. We know from it’s first African outing in 2004 that the CP expands modestly at .404 Jeffery and .470 Nitro velocities and shoots stem to stern on Cape buffalo. It is comforting to know that it will also hold up to use in higher velocity cartridges. The 450 gr. CP remained point forward through out its bullet path and showed no signs of tipping or tumbling when fired from my 450 Dakota with 1-12 twist.

North Fork has managed to improve on the A-Square concept of a “triad†of bullets. The North Fork SP, CP and FN could be fired into a single ½ x 1 inch group at 50 yards with express sights, and about the same with a 3 X scope at 100 yards. Why look any farther?

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2131666134

23 New Photos added:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2131666134

Click on the slide show and enjoy.

Andy

The photo posted by Charles_Helm is showing just fine here, and it is Imagestation too, good quality. Unexplainable vagaries of posting with Imagestation.
I will go look at the new photos in the album, between things at work.
Great work Andy! I agree that your work is enough basis to recommend the Cup Point as the best buffalo bullet available.

Ron, Dan, Ray,

I just shot two bonded soft points followed by one each CP and FN at 100 yards from bench w the 450 Dakota and no shit, the composite group is 3/4 x 7/8 inch center to center.

100 gr RL-15 for the soft and 102 gr for CP and FN.

Velocity was a bit over 2,550 fps. Less pressure for the CP and FN than soft.

This is just an incredible combination.

Andy

Hi Andy,
As soon as I am finished loading the .404 Sheep bullets from North Fork, I will try your loads for the 450 Dakota.

100 grains of RL-15 with .458/450grSP North Fork
102 grains with FP and CP, makes sense.
Pressures must be mild for all.

With the 45 Lapua cartridge, which is ~0.2" shorter than the 450 Dakota, I found that 99 grains of RL-15, with 500 grain RNSP Barnes Original bullets, gave excellent accuracy and 2463 fps from a 22" barreled rifle of mine (12" twist McGowen stainless), and no pressure signs.

Your pressures gotta be O.K. with your loads of RL-15 for that excellent North Fork triad.

I have the SP and a bunch of the old ogiveFN in .458/450gr North Fork. I have ordered some of the new CP's and truncated cone FP solids to add to my stash.

My 450 Dakota file consists mostly of your data. Thanks.

That has become my std load. I am seating the FN and CP to base of first groove as per Mikes instructions. Its kind of short but is obviously accurate. I seat the SP to base of third groove for 30/1000 off rifling. You can use this setting for the FN and CP and it seats just a tad deep but not by much.

The 100 gr SP load is fairly hot but still appears safe at 85-100 degrees.

I still prefer the SP to the CP. Ive recovered 8-9 of them both 400 and 450 grain including some edge hits that would destroy most bullets, and they dont look any diffrent than a center hit. In some ways its more stout than the CP which remember did loose about 1/3 of its frontal area.

News Flash, the volume of the CP and Barnes X/Triple Shock HP are the same! 0.1cc and 1.0 grain water.

The shallow HP deffinately works better than the narrow deep one of Barnes.

Andy,
Although I am sold 100% on cup points and flat nose solids I have used the 350 gr. 375s and 450 gr. 416 round nose softs and PP from Woodleigh and I flat love them, they expand to the size of a silver dollar in a buffalo and stop on the off side skin about 50% of the time on a broadside shot, and knock a big hole going out the other 5o% of the time. I have recovered a number of them, its a great bullet....The PP is the tougher of the two and my preference by a small margin for what its worth. They work well on plainsgame and great on elk and bison also.

Does anyone here have experience with the A Square solids deforming?

I just purchased some 465 grain 458's from Midway and they appear to be swaged rather than screw machine or CNC like Barnes solids or NF.

They have a nice blunt RN but Im afraid if they are soft enough to swage they will deform.

Im not worried about this particular bullet bending as its still fairly short and I have a 1-12 twist in the 450 Dakota.

I bought them to compare to Mikes 450 gr FN solid as it was closest weight in a RN I could find.

Andy

Andy, those are nice photos and an informative spreadsheet. Based on what you have seen, which of the bullets would you prefer to hunt buffalo with?

Dan,

I see you attached an Imagestatin photo, probably from my albumn, but it did not come through.

If you asked me about all the bullets on the spreadsheet, it would be in following order:

450 NF SP, 400 NF SP, 450 NF CP, 500 Kodiak SP, 500 Swift SP, 450 Barnes X, 450 Kodiak SP.

I would hunt with any of these, but in that order. The 400 NF SP will surprise many but it retains more weight and is just in better shape than the other heavier bullets like a 450 Swift, 500 gr TBSpeer, 485 Rhino, 500 Barnes X etc.

I standardized on the 450 NF SP in large part because the 450 gr solids did not give up much penetration compared to the 500 gr solids but the 400 gr was -25%.

I also learned to handle the recoil of the heavier bullet.

Now that Mike has the matching 450 gr SP, CP and FN I dont know why anyone would hunt with any other brand.

I want to experiment with the CP some more like I did his SP's, and plan to recover it at 100 yards and also in wood stop box. That might raise it up a spot or two, but right now Ive got alot of confidence in the bonded soft point. Joels experience of 3 one-shot stops without CNS hits support that. But I mean what I said, I would hunt with any of the bullets I listed.

The biggest surprise of the test was that there were so many good bullets that held up to high velocity PB impact.

Andy

Andy, thanks for the summary. I am very impressed that North Fork's are your top three choices based on the tests you conducted.

As for imagestation, I can see the photos that I link in here to AR, but I suppose no one else can.

quote:

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Originally posted by 500grains:

As for imagestation, I can see the photos that I link in here to AR, but I suppose no one else can.

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I can see the chart you posted, but have mixed sucess seeing the Imagestation pictures generally.

Question, other than the bands, and the solid copper rear core vs a lead core, how does the NF
CUP differ from the A-frame?

I am currently loading both for my .404 and will be testing mainly for accuracy since I believe both are a good choice for Buff. However the praise for NF seems to be greater than the Swift bullet.

Carmelo,

Here is my review of the Swift bullets.

Two out of three 450 grain Swifts lost their front core or fractured it. The 450 grain NF holds up to much higher velocity than the 450 grain Swift. The 500 grain Swift was "Good to go."

There is as much art as science in the mass production of a premium bullet. The Bitterroot, the original and still best bonded hunting bullet ever made, and the North Fork truly have the craft figured out. As far as I'm concerned, all other brands are still in development.

450 grain Swift.

The 450 gr. Swift was a bit of a disappointment. I had expected this bullet to be the one of choice for a man like me who valued velocity over mass. The bullet had a bit more frontal area than the NF and a bit less retained weight, yet it penetrated 3 ½ cans of water! And it did so consistently. Based on the reputation of the .416 Swift, I really expected this bullet to work, and conducted three test shots. One lost its front core and was recovered in the fourth can of water weighing 292 gr. and .517 diameter, a second fractured but did not separate, and a third remained intact. The last two bullets were nearly identical at .863 caliber and 90% retained weight. A 250 gr./.375 Swift with much less SD, withstands 2,950 fps impact in my .375 Improved. The heavy .458’s really are hard on a bullet! The 450 gr. Swift is loaded in Remington .458 WM Safari ammunition. At a modest 2,250 fps it is likely to be among the best factory ammunition available. At high velocity, with a 22.8 cubic inch permanent wound cavity, it will probably kill 40% faster than a .416 Remington. (If it does not blow off its front core). I cannot explain why it has more penetration than the North Fork. The recovered Swift is 0.15 inch shorter than the NF, so it may be more stable. It showed no signs of tipping.

500 grain Swift.

The 500 gr. Swift was as reliable as the 400 gr./.416. It actually had more penetration than the reference standard while having over 20% more frontal area and 30% larger permanent wound cavity. It decelerates slowly and had enough residual velocity to split open the front of the third water bucket, the only bullet to do so. (A .416 Swift will also do this, which may account for it’s excellent reputation as a buffalo gun). Magnum rifle shooters must be realistic about their tolerance for recoil. Such performance does not come freely. My .416 Remington weighs 8 ½ pounds with scope, sling and ammo. My .450 Dakota weighs 11 pounds, and has a muzzle brake. If you are not physically fit, or vastly experienced, you are much better off with a smaller caliber. The Swift had the highest retained weight of any bullet tested other than the experimental 418 gr. Bitterroot. The lead core is so dark, it is almost black, and appears to be made from pure lead.

Most Swift bullets when they are recovered from game have a characteristic “beer barrel†bulge in the bearing surface of the bullet, where the un-bonded rear core has migrated toward the partition. While there was only 108 fps difference between the 450 and 500 gr. bullets, the heavier Swift is not even close to losing its front core. This puzzled me for two years until I measured the diameter of the two bullets bearing surface. The 500 gr. was a uniform .587 caliber. The 450 gr. was noticeably smaller at .517. The swollen rear core of the 500 gr. bullet supports the expanding mushroom much better than the lighter core of the 450 gr. I will probably re-test the 500 gr. Swift at 2,450 fps and see if it still holds up to point blank impact. I am 90% certain that it will.

Dan,

In my selection, I have taken into account the temporary cavity of each bullet. Provided they stay glued together, the higher velocity or larger frontal area bullets would probably kill better. So I have moved them up into the list based on that. For instance the NF CP had a modest permanant cavity but would still rate pretty well in temporary volume due to its velocity and rapid expansion. Given the frontal area of a good .375 bullet with it's excellent pentration, it should be a great all around DGR bullet. It was not a class leader in any categroy but did well in all of them. You get the idea.

Andy

Andy,

Thanks for that information... Very Much Appreciated!

I have a few boxes of NF on the way!

This is a North Fork semi spitzer bullet. Note the bonded lead core and driving bands.




_____

This is a North Fork cup point solid. Note that it is pure copper with no lead, a large hollow nose (not visible in the photo), and a different driving band configuration.

Andy,
Do you have any trouble with these cup or flat point solids feeding through your rifle? My friend Joel and I have tried the flat points in our Dakotas and neither rifle would feed reliably at all with them. As good as they might be, they are a non-starter for us due to their constant failure to feed troubles.

I have had no trouble with flat nose or cup nose feeding in 4 rifles. Perhaps the margin for error is not there in all rifles. A custom rifle can be built from the ground up to feed flat noses, and I have had that done. It is a worthwhile exercise.

I'm going to build another rifle and will instruct the gunsmith to be sure and have it working with these. However, after the results my friend had with the NF softs I really don't think using these would provide any additional benefits on buffalo. Nonetheless, if the rifle can be made to feed them properly they will get their chance.

John,

Nice to hear from you!

I just received this from Mike Brady re. the FN and CP. Thought you would be interested.

I seated the CP and FN to first driving band as Mike suggested and they take a fairly sharp bolt throw to function in my unmodified CZ feed ramp. Seated longer they work great but then there is not enough driving bands in the neck to hold them under recoil.

The previous RN-FN was not at all sensative about OCL, and the truncated cone are, but can be made to work. As you said, the bonded softs work so well, and do so at any OCL why look farther, but if you need a solid than I think it is worth fooling around with your ramp like Dan said. In my rifle the FN and CP catch on the edge and a minute with a Dremel tool should be all it takes.

Here is what Mike is offering his cutomers:

"Sorry for being slow in getting info on the new line of solids on the website. Whenever a bullet shape becomes more blunt or in any way diverges from the spitzer shape, feed issues can arise. To directly answer questions about any possible feed issues I will have a samples program that will allow the purchase of a small quantity (4) of the solids that you can assemble in cases and test your specific rifle for feed and function. This way there will be no great expense incurred to see if they will or won't work in your rifle. Currently I have in stock 375-300, 416-370, 423-380, and 458-450. The price (cash, check, or MO) for the sample packs is $5 for 423 and under and $6 for 458 and up, postpaid to the lower 48. It would be wise to contact me by email before you send funds just in case we run out of your specific caliber. Also if you are looking for other calibers ( to come soon 366 and 475) please email and I will notify you when they are available. Mike"