Jim Shockey reportedly came back from a trip to Tanzania recently. He killed 3 cape buffalo with a new .52 cal Knight Muzzleloader (uses thinner sabots with 45 cal premium bullets, over 150gr of high-test blackpowder "equivalent", for higher velocity and flatter trajectory). He also scored a couple of "world records" on some other plains game (to add to the huge number of "world records" he already owns for kills with a muzzleloader -- Zzzzzz, zzzzzz).

So, does this qualify him as a "stunt-man"? Did he unethically jeopardize the lives of his PH's, camerawoman, and entourage by using an aenemic, underpowered single shot in pursuit of dangerous game? Or is hunting with an ultra modern in-line, disc ignited, sabot slinging, front stuffer more legitimite than using a .45-70???

Canuck

ps: Normally I am not a pot-stirrer, but you will have to forgive me -- I couldn't resist. I just can't help poking at the whole "stunt" thing. Sorry. And Shockey makes me ill. His "look at me" syndrome is almost as advanced as M. Sullivan's. An opportunity to poke a little fun at both at the same time was too much to deny.

[ 07-15-2003, 03:23: Message edited by: Canuck ]

In any video I've seen of him I never got the idea he was full of himself at all. I think he's a successful and experienced hunter using muzzleloaders that are accurate and up to the task.

I cannot recall one hunt where Shocky is charged by an animal let alone him wounding one in hopes of a charge ala Sullivan.

I probably shouldn't have made such a direct comparison between him and M. Sullivan. I definitely was not intending to imply similarities in their hunting styles or ethics. Just that he and Sullivan really like themselves and aweful lot, and are about the most avid of self promoters.

I am sure Shockey did not do anything untoward or unethical in the hunting of those buffaloes. I am simply referring back to some comments made here about hunting cape buffalo with a .45-70 being a "stunt", and wondering if by the same logic, a celeb hunting 3 of them with a muzzle loader would qualify as same.

FWIW, I think being a BC resident I have suffered "Shockey overdose". It doesn't matter what hunting publication or newsletter you open up (local, regional, provincial, national or international), you get a face-full of his most recent "WORLD RECORD(fill in the blank)". And my one personal experience attending a seminar left me feeling he was a little inflated in ego area.

Maybe I am wrong...but we all get an opinion or two, eh?

Cheers,
Canuck

[ 07-15-2003, 03:09: Message edited by: Canuck ]

I don't know about the ego thing. One item that Sullivan and Shockey do seem to have in common is the best videography in the market today. Who's even close?

Canuck, while I am not a Jim Shockey fan, I do think the guy is a pretty good hunter. He gets in close enough to make a good shot and from all I've seen, he does. He's not trying to wound, provoke or otherwise try and upset an animal as Mr Sullivan routinely displays in his videos.

What gives with the comments? Do you have similar feelings about Boddington and Chuck Adams? They are all in about every hunting magazine but I haven't seen posts of similar ilk on them.

I wasn't attempting to make a big fuss about Shockey. And for the second time, I never meant to imply he wasn't a great hunter. It would be tough to get that many great whitetails if he wasn't a pretty damn good hunter, muzzle loader or not.

FWIW, I am not a big fan of Chuck Adams, but I do like Boddington. What tires me about Shockey is all of the "Look at me, I shot the World Record (you name it, he has almost all of them in NA)" articles that Shockey does. Most of the better outdoor writers past and present are not nearly so over-the-top in their self-aggrandizing.

I do enjoy the humor in a lot of Shockey's articles, but a little less "look at me" would go a long way in my book.

Again, just an opinion. I seldom bother to put one out there for debate, but felt it was a good opportunity to get a chuckle out of the old .45-70 debate.

Signing off for now,
Canuck

[ 07-15-2003, 03:30: Message edited by: Canuck ]

Since you have a similar opinion on Chuck Adams, I'm fine with it. When he was doing the whole SuperSlam thing I thought I'd barf. Also, when he was on the cover a year or so back with the "potential world record elk" and inside they had a student from Montana that had shot one bigger, I just had to laugh! Too me though, Chuck is not as personable as Shockey, which may be why Chuck's not on videos/TV and Shockey is.

I like Shockey's humor column in NAHC, but can understand the turn off related to his over the top style.

You have to forgive Canuck's attitude about Shockey and Sullivan. He is a litttle senseitive, both of them being from BC and all.

I have heard though that Shockey has his arm in a sling. Seems he broke it patting himself on the back.

Snake, this'll probably get me some more backlash, but I have always classed Chuck Adams with the Kurt Darner types. I grinned when I read the magazine to which you are referring too.

It actually pained me to start looking at Shockey in a similar light. I really enjoyed his first few years on the scene.

Mickey, you almost caused me to pull a muscle. Thanks for the chuckle!

Canuck

I've met Jim a couple times and had the pleasure of sitting with him and his lovely wife at a dinner one evening and IMHO he and his wife are as nice as anyone you'll ever meet. And lets face it, who among us wouldn't like to make our living hunting all over the world, endorsing products and filming tv shows. And like the saying goes, "it ain't bragging if you done it".

These modern inline bigbore muzzleloaders are pretty potent.

I would just like to know how he got started...and I mean with the bucks! He owns miles of Canada, Africa and now looking to by miles of a river in the Yukon!!!
I saw a TV show where he was "looking" at the property by floating the river and hunting a ....... what else...... WORL RECORD MOOSE with a "smoke pole"! He finally swaped places with his camera man when they had a large bull standing at 50 yards looking at them for several minutes.
By the way... this next weeks TV show on the Outdoor Channel is his buff hunt in Africa.
Oh ya.... I think Jim and Chuck Adams both have thier sh#t together, when it comes to both hunting and busness skills!

[ 07-15-2003, 05:46: Message edited by: bo-n-aro ]

These hunts cost these guys nothing...Some of us simple folk have to pay every dollar for our hunts and transportation and everything else associated with our hunts...
Shockey shoots inline ml...
His last show on the outdoor channel how many of us can hunt 20+ days in a row???

Mike

Canuck, I think it just comes down to what Ray said in the 45-70 saga, If you can do it and get away with so be it, its just not some thing I would do, I saw a tape of the buff the owner of buffaloe bullets took with his speacil made soild out of black powder 50, if he can do it as guess Jim can

It seems that those who critique the 45-70 on cape buffalo as "a stunt" couldn't help but be critical of a muzzleloader for the same reasons.

As for Shockey and Adams as "Sullivan types" . . . I don't think so BUT I do have issues with their gear. If you are going to do "the primitive weapon thing" WHY would one want to use an in-line muzzleloader or a compound bow? I, for one, would be a lot more interested in what these guys have to say if they got these "world records" with a .50 cal hawken loaded with round balls or a handmade longbow with cedar arrows.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

I guess everyone wants to famous for something but the whole idea of shooting "one" of everything available on the North American continent is a little to much like checking things off a list just to finish the list. When I was growing up this was epitomized by Elgin Gates.

This is my biggest problem with SCI....all the levels and awards requiring so many of this and so many of that.....how many types of duikers are there and does anyone really care except to check them off their list so they can be the "Grand Exalted Poobah of the 3rd Bronze Level".

People can spend their money the way they want to but if it is really a "whose dick is bigger' contest let's just whip them out and save some time.

I read somewhere that Chuck Adams and Shockley both started out as conventional rifle users. To stand out in a field already thick with "rifle writers" Adams concentrated on the bow and Shockley his inline wonder gun. Now with product endorsements and branded product deals they count the writing as only a small part of their income.

It's all about self promotion and image, and if you start to believe your own press, it's way too easy to start looking like a horses ass.

Then you find yourself wearing a ten gallon hat and a scarf and making an artform out of not shaving.

Joe.

I hunted with Pacific Rim Outfitters a few years ago, Jim's Black Bear Outfitting business on Vancouver Island. Luck had it, that Jim was me and my brother's guide for the whole six days of hunting. As a matter of fact, if you have seen any of Jim's Television shows or videos recently, you will notice that ther is one video sequence always featured. It is a black bear running down a hill getting extremely close to Jim and the hunter (right around 5 to 10 yards) that hunter was my brother Lance. I was the one who actually was handling the camera. We had a great hunt killed three bears, my brother passed up on his second bear, he was a little shaken up after that charge.

As far as Jim is concerned, I found him to be a very intelligent and humble person. One of the things that he is very critical of and makes sure of is taking humane clean kills. If you watched jim's tv show last week he passed up an opportunity to kill one of the largest whitetails I have ever seen. He ended up taking that deer after 20 days in the same stand at a shot distance he was more comfortable in taking. I was almost shocked when he said he was going to pass up that shot. Obviously, I think the guy is pretty awesome hunter and good guy, granted I hunted with him for 6 days but I think if you spent some time with him you would come up with the same assesment as I.

As far as him recently returning from a trip to Tanzania. I actually spoke to him last week, while I was inquiring about his new territory in the yukon about a Dall Sheep hunt. He mentioned that he would be leaving in three weeks for a 21 day safari with Ridge Taylor Safaris, in hope of killing Buffalo, hippo, lion and leopard with his muzzleloader.

If I remember correctly, Jim started out hunting with conventional rifle and then started his hand at bow hunting. He decided to put the bow down because he said that when you work so hard to get into bow range (10 - 50 yards) and then not be able to take the animal for a variety of reasons that bow hunters have to deal with because of the choice in weapon, he just felt it was a little unfair at times, That is when he picked up the muzzle loader and hasn;t put it down since. Jim is coming out with a book and like 5 new videos including a couple on africa very shortly. Check out his site at jimshockey.com

Canuck

I'm with you! I've had it with all the Shockey Shot this and Shocky Shat that. Knight and Day smoke pole piece of crap!

Some dick head is obviously buying this guys well marketed Shockey Shat.

Stop it!

Shockey might be nice, rich, and famous but you couldn't pay me enough to hunt with that crap stick he calls a gun! Damn I hate the sight of that thing!
Did somebody called his inline potent? AAARRRRRRRGGGGHH!
The word is impotent 'cause my dick goes limp just lookin at it!

Some day Shockey will come to his senses and wrap that smokestick around old man Knight's head and pick up his 300 Weatherby again.

It wouldn't market very well but I would pay to watch it.

Just havin' fun!

Jamie

Was there not some contraversey about Jims caribou camp in Quebec using spotter planes and a helicopter to locate trophy bulls? My understanding is that in Quebec it is legal but how sporting is it to use a plane to find a huge bull and then fly the client in and shoot it.

I wonder is Dave Pedersoli will give me endorsement money for hunting with my kodiak?

that's a fricking SMOKE POLE... and not merely a case-less smokeless rifle.

jeffe

I don't know much about Mr. Shockey. I do know that he is promoted as a great hunter by firms which he endorses. There is a bowhunter who's work is much the same as Mr. Shockey. They both seem to go all over the world hunting and killing a great deal of game. They both have turned this into a money maker through endorsements, etc. I don't see anything wrong with this but... (you knew this was coming didn't you )

How the great bowhunter using a compound bow that slings graphite arrows at 300 fps or Mr. Shockey using the latest wonder gun muzzleloader are taking world record bow or muzzleloader animals is a mystery to me. It is a mystery how they are able to so consistently take world record animals. It is a mystery to me how the record keeping groups accept their equipment as equivalent to the actual equipment which the record books were originally designed to promote. It is a mystery to me why I should care about these fellows and why their endorsements should move me to change my buying decisions.

Of course it is a mystery to my wife how I can eat 22 oz of prime rib at a sitting (with rolls!) and go 3 days without eating anything or how I can spend $1000 on a gun and won't spend $20 on a pair of blue jeans!

I would say that it is to each his own. If the PH will hunt with Mr. Shockey, well, that's the PH's decision. If they aren't breaking the law when hunting, well then I guess it is just fine. And if the "books" accept the game as fair chase and record it, well, that's their decision. But it doesn't mean that I have to honor these fellows by naming my son after one of them!

I'll just go through life doing what I like to do, as long as it is legal and right, and leave them and their sponsors to their own devices.

Hi guys, Sorry but I have to add my 2 cents as I might be hunting black bear next spring with one of the new 52 caliber Knight muzzleloaders. One of my hunting buddies is the sales rep for Knight in our area. I told him we were going to try calling bears and he gave me a couple predator calls (Knight and Hale has a new baby black bear screaming call-I don't have that yet) Anyhow he has one of the new 52 cal rifles coming and he said I could use it. He had one of the bullets and they look almost exactly like a 50 cal bmg bullet, they are huge!
Now the reason for doing this is purely personal (just like Shockey) as I am going to try and write an article for a magazine about the hunt. So I guess in a way I'm maybe being a bit of a whore about it, but I think I might be able to get an article published easier by using the 52 cal Knight instead of my rifle which I've shot bears with but never felt a story would be that much different than what's out there, anyhow it was my buddies idea and we'll see how it pans out.
I do have to agree that I don't think these new in-line muzzleloaders are true muzzleloaders/primitive weapons.
About Shockey's hunt, my friend seemed to think that it was a water buffalo he shot, is that possible in Africa? Which ever it was he said the buffalo took 2 steps after being hit by the 52 cal and fell over. If that's true it would have to be pretty potent wouldn't it?
Thanks for letting me give you my 2 cents worth. Joe

Picked up an old copy of Big Game Adventures the other day, OK it was given to me, thanks Ken. I leafed through it and there it was, a double page full of pics of Mr. Shockey and his quarries, all dead, and some text about his being the first bloke to kill all NA critters with muzzle loader (april 2002 issue). I found that quite an accomplishment, even with a regular rifle I would have been impressed, if only about the fact that he has a picture of him and his quarry in all cases.

Personally I've started off on the wrong foot, of my recent wolf kill I don't have a picture of myself and the wolf, because I couldn't find the self-click-something (where you press the button and run around to get into the picture).

I sometimes get the idea that these achievements are as much a measure of a man's wallet than a man's hunting abilities. I don't want to belittle anybody's achievements, but how many of them would have achieved what they have, if they hadn't gone through an outfitter? I admit that you still have to climb the mountain yourself, you have to endure the cold and the wet or the heat yourself, but it sure helps a whole lot if somebody tells you *which* mountain to climb, and which gully to cross, and behind which rock to wait.

I'm thinking back of my own first efforts for black bear this spring, and even with the advice of othes it took me seven outings to see my first bear. I've been looking at some sheep mountains today, and it took me two hours to find some stupid creek that I wanted to follow uphill, just because the road extension wasn't on my map (that was issued in 1979). There, another day gone.

Some species cannot even be done on your own, like polar bear, I realize that. And I could never hunt Africa without hiring some help. Heck, I'm a booking agent!! Yet, show me a man or woman who can claim that he/she hunted a trophy him or herself and he/she will have my highest esteem!

Even though, in case of my wolf, dumb luck was the major contributant to success.

Frans

If this guy is such a great hunter, I'd like to see him kill a world record whitetail with a rifle, not a blackpowder or bow record, or how about a record book elk with no guide on public land in Colorado? If he could do that, then he would be a hunter. I had to laugh when I see that grin on Chuck Adams face with some kind of record California Tule Elk, and then later in the article, it says that they only gave out one or two tags a year, of course he just entered a draw and got his fucking tag. In a lot of areas including here, bow record books are so much easier to get, so many more deer qualify. I'm not taking anything away from bowhunters, I have two myself, but a 130 B&C deer, we don't shoot with a rifle, I believe makes P&Y minimum and believe me between 130 and 150 thins them out a lot, 150 to 170 pts are damn hard to find and these don't make book with a rifle. Just so people realize where these big deer come from on the TV shows, etc., My brother raises some deer(has about a dozen) for fun and has a big buck now that'll gross about 180 B&C- he says he can take him to a game sale and he'll bring $5000 as a shooter. I think you guys can figure out what a shooter buck is- you've been watching them shot from high stands on your local hunting show and this buck lets his 2 yr old daughter ride on his back! I don't know the Shockey guy, but I see he's using a black powder equivalent(for higher velocity, like H4350?), if you hunt with a muzzleloader, use black powder, no Remington 700's, no sabots, no scope, that's a primitive weapon.

Frans

I don't know about Shockey shooting all 28 NA with a muzzleloader but a gentleman named Chuck Epping finished shooting all of them about 15 years ago. With a real front stuffer and not one of the new hi tech models.

Of course he did it for himself and not to promote something and didn't get any recognition aother than his name in a mag or too.

Thought somebody might like to have a look at Mr. Shockey's site or Knight Rifles.

[ 07-16-2003, 17:03: Message edited by: Hobie ]

I think a lot of these tv/writer types suck. I also think a lot of them are pretty good. I don't know Shockey and probably never will. He seems to be into self promotion, but isn't that his business? As long as we keep watching/reading him, it appears to be working.

Gents: I happened to see Shockey's show yesterday on the Outdor channel where he took the buff with that muzzleloader. I didn't see anything that would indicate his arrogance or desire for "size above all else." He seemed like a great guy. jorge

PS: it wa a good stalk and a good kill on the buff. His PH had a 500 Jeffries bolt action just in cse though!

I'm not impressed. Just jealous. Cold hard cash is the surest ticket to any of these "wonder slams" and world records. Wouldn't it be nice to have scads of people scouting for you all over the world, planning for you, filming you blah blah blah.
There is nothing traditional about inline muzzle loaders and compound bows for that matter. Want to impress me? Go get your North American slam with a recurve bow without any help or guidance.
Each of us has had those precious moments in the field when we feel at one with nature and our place in the scheme of things is somehow affirmed. Hunting is a tradition passed on to each generation. To sensationalize it demeans the whole intent and purpose of the hunting experience. My grandfather, Ralph Showalter, is a greater outdoorsman than any of the previously mentioned celebs.

Rene

Rene, you have said it all, and well.

Mickey1

BGA talked about Shockey taking 30 NA animals, not 28....maybe they discovered two more in the last 15 years ;-) E.g. they list 5 species of caribou: Barren Ground, Central Canada Barren Ground, Quebec Lab, Woodland, and Moutain.

Maybe if I come up with new wolf species, the 50-miles-West-of-Caroline-South-of-Clearwater-River
but-North of Cut-off-Creek subspecies I could be the first to have shot one!!

Frans

Frans

Who knows, SCI rcognizes about 20 types of Whitetails. B&C used to recognize 28 species of NA Game. I think that it even include Walrus. This was before we had Grizzly, Mountain Grizzly, Tundra Grizzly etc.

I don't think any time of official recognition should be given to an archer or muzzleloader hunter who has a PH/guide/companion or whatever along with a large bore back-up rifle just in case things go wrong. If it is an archery hunt or muzzleloader hunt and a PH/guide/companion is along as back-up they should be required to carry the same type of equipment as the main shooter. I suspect a lot less folks will hunt the big stuff with this type of equipment if this rule were put into place before trophies could be listed in Pope&Young or whatever it is the muzzleloader folks call their trophy registration.

Of course Shockey promotes himself--that's his business, his livelihood. The result? He gets to do a lot of free hunting now days in prime locations. That tends to make a lot of folks jealous. Never seen him on TV or a video myself, as I don't own one of the contraptions, but that's OK. I don't begrudge the man for what he's done, but it does irk me that so much emphasis is placed on the muzzleloader aspect. From my point of view, doing it with a modern inline isn't much, albeit a little, different than a centerfire rifle. Now if he'd done it with an old tyme (type) smoke pole and black powder and a round ball, I'd be impressed.

As to stunts, I don't know. I've noticed myself that as I hunt more and more, I look for more challenge. I decided to get a moose with a pistol for the challenge (worked, but almost did me under). Then I decided that getting a black bear with an old round baller and black powder would be a more fun challenge. I was right. I'm now going to get a Brown bear with the smoke pole, and if I shoot another cape buff, it will be with a pistol. Stunts? No, just wanting a challenge, want to see if I can do it. Some people like a challenge. It is hard to explain to others. I don't think what Shockey has done is a stunt, or done for a stunt. For business income, yes, but that is after the fact. I'd wager he started doing it for a challenge, for fun, a grin, but not as a stunt.

I watched Jim Shockey's show tonight on the Outdoor Channel and watched his hunt with Wengert-Rose Safaris. Everything looked on the up and up to me. He shot both his croc (with a Blaser) and his buff (with his muzzleloader) well. He stalked up to a herd with his PH, picked out a nice bull and waited for a perfect shot. He shot him behind the shoulder on a quartering shot and the bull didn't run 50 yards before it keeled over. Don't underestimate muzzleloaders, they were used before the centerfires came along to take lots of African game. It didn't look like a stunt to me. If a man or woman is good with the weapon of their choosing and hunt ethically, I don't see the problem. As for self-promotion, that's his business.

I cannot say I am a Jim Shockey fan, but neither can I say I believe he is a stuntman. However I am jealous of the time and money he is allowed for hunting...Good For Him!

On one show (over a year ago), I watched as he took a client on a ML Grizzly hunt. Mr Shockey "did" carry a rifle during the hunt as a backup. Because of this, I am confident he had someone as a backup during his buff hunt in Africa. Also during this show he was asked why ML? His reply (in a jovial sense) was, he had found the rifle getting too easy and bow was too hard.

Shockey's buff hunt

I watched the hunt and it was done very nicely...Yes he shot I believe a 50cal. in line with a very hard bullet for penetration..You could actually see the buf hunch after impacy with the big ball...Shot placement was perfect and yes PH had his 500 jeffery in hands reach of him...I really enjoyed when the tracker swanm the river with the rope..doggie paddled across to be there when Jim shot his croc...
I enjoyed the show...

Mike

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