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| One of Us |
I posted Ivan Carter's offer on FB and got the following response (below) from a former classmate who guides (or used to guide) photo-safaris in Kenya. I think - and I hope someone passes this on to Ivan - I think that Ivan should take this guy up on his counter-offer, call his bluff (and go for the big bucks). I'll put them in touch. Let me know.  "A stupid challenge - when you hunt large prey you need to go alone - hence the extreme cost - he should offer to take a complete group of photographers and adjust the price accordingly to the group size - he would likely get many more accepting his offer, given that the average photo safari participant easily spends about US$750 per day to see wildlife in groups of 6. By that math if he took a group of 6 on a photo photo safari he would generate $45k about $20k more than his hunting safari. So if he really wanted to make a statement he might want to start there." | ||
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| One of Us |
I just found out that he (the counter-offerer) is now the Director of International Eco-Tourism for The Oceanic Society. | |||
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Take him to watch sperm whales... er just drop him off in the middle of them with snorkel and camera and tell him " See ya in port "... " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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One of Us |
It's about where the money goes as much as the money. Much more of hunters' money than so-called eco-tourists' money stays in-country and supports conservation efforts and the local economy. Not to mention the vast eco-damage that multitudes of so-called eco-tourists do, as compared with the zero damage done by the many fewer hunters who spend equivalent and more effective money. This guy is clueless. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Eco tourism has maxed out. There is no waiting list of people wanting to go on photographic safaris. There's currently lots of opportunity for them to go. I think Ivan's point is that these anti idiots keep saying there's more money in eco tourism but there just aren't enough people to fill the monetary void if hunters pulled out so it would take individuals stepping up to fill individual hunter's spots for the cash flow to remain the same. Secondly, many hunting areas are poor photo destinations because the density of animals aren't there to keep ADD photographers busy so these marginal photo spots would lose revenue instantly. | |||
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I agree - and as with the rest of them, there's no changing his mind. But I'm not interested in debating the issue with him on my FB page (or even here with y'all). We all already know what it's all about. But I don't want to just let it go and I think the best response would be from Ivan himself (though I wouldn't expect him to adjust his day-rate). | |||
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I have told the antis in person, as well as on Oprah's forum, how to stop elephant hunting in Zimbabwe. It's simple: buy the permits and the hunt and then don't take the elephant. Not one would consider the idea as it would take money. Ivan's offer is commendable but the antis would rather bitch than pay--talk rather than walk. They are mostly ass holes, but they are winning. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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All apologies if I'm being a little thick here, but didn't this guy just assist in making Ivan's point for him? One hunter makes up for 6 eco-tourists in basic economic terms, hunters impact the environment to a much lesser degree, overall carbon footprint per dollar is much smaller, etc.? Perhaps we should also point out that hunters are ready and willing - or perhaps even expect - to get into the nasty, mosquito infested hell holes in order to hunt their quarry? Little Miss Pea Bottom with her Nikon won't dare trek into the dark and lonely places that many hunters dream of visiting. I understand that some prefer the country club hunt in Africa of course, so that's not lost on me. The point still stands, does it not? I could go on of course, but someone weigh in here. Thoughts? | |||
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| One of Us |
I agree with all of that, and would add that herding a crowd of photo-tourists in dangerous-game country is probably not something Ivan would be much interested in - and for good reason. But before I respond to this character, I'll let it ride for awhile. Maybe someone will pass it on to Ivan and maybe he'll have something to say, which I expect would be pretty interesting. | |||
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Hmm...so this eco-tourist genius immediately wants a discount on the cost of a trip - money that he knows will help the very wildlife he wants to see. I thought these people wanted to MAXIMIZE money going to wildlife, not look for a ripping deal...why not convince all 6 tourist to pay the full amount, including trophy fees. Then you might have something. | |||
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My response. "Nothing stupid about it, Wayne. Some photo-tourists prefer a more personal one-on-one or two-on-one safari experience – the same as with some hunters. Others would rather hunt (or photograph) the wildlife as part of a larger group. To each his own. But there are plenty of good reasons why his offer makes much more sense (both ecologically and economically) than what you suggest – one being that fewer tourists (whether hunters or photographers) means a smaller footprint – and the larger fee translates into a larger handprint. See more at CAMPFIRE. I would add that calling his offer stupid is disrespectful to both Ivan and to me. And I find the continued imposition of Western (anti-hunting) values upon the peoples of Africa to be highly offensive. It’s just eco-imperialism, plain and simple, and reflects a profound misunderstanding of man’s place in nature. At any rate, I’ve passed your comment, which I perceive to be a counter-offer, on to a few of Ivan’s colleagues. Maybe it’ll get to him and maybe not. I expect he’s in the bush, doing his part for the peoples and wildlife of Africa." | |||
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well said. I didnt see any eco tourists in Burkina faso. I bet most couldn't find it on a map. Full time professional trapper | |||
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Funny you say that Tom, but I have seen photographic tourists stay in hunting camps in Burkina. Mix with hunters, enjoy eating game etc. I guess the French and other Europeans are more balanced in their way of thinking than many so called logical and intelligent people Stateside! | |||
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| One of Us |
A typical buffalo hunter is willing to spend all day every day tracking buff, possibly not seeing any other game. A photo tourist, especially in a group of 5 or 6 wants to see game every several minutes. They would be crying by noon on the first day and probably wouldn't even go out after the 3rd day. Bob | |||
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| One of Us |
There are two kinds of smart: Book smart, and street smart (aka common sense). Most of the ecoweenies are college educated and very book smart, but have lacked any contact with the real world and real life situations. What they have been taught by others, primarily book smart professors, will make logical sense to them, even if it does not work in the real world. These are people who firmly believe that raising the minimum wage to any level makes sense and will improve the lives of those working for minimum wage. They believe firmly that getting rid of all coal burning power plants will save the planet, and they also firmly believe that eliminating sport/trophy hunting will save animals. They are really smart people, so dummies like us who do not have PhD degrees in ecology could not possibly know as much as they do. They do not have to go to Africa to know what is best for Africa. Someone who has run a business, made a payroll, and become a success could not possibly know anything worth knowing. This is the sort of thinking we are up against. Most of my money I spent on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted | |||
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This is better for the environment and the animals?   | |||
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I have always felt that it takes photo and hunting revenue to save wildlife. It would be great if we could work together. Full time professional trapper | |||
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I saved this photo and will probably use it (with your permission, I assume) to show how ridiculous photo-safaris can be ... ... but just to confirm, is that a lion over there on the far left, about 2/3rds of the way up? | |||
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| One of Us |
Probably not. | |||
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| One of Us |
Those pics are really sad. And to think, every one of those people probably went home and squawked about how beautiful it was to see lions in their pristine, natural habitat. I'm glad the photographer decided to turn the camera around. I would be willing to be no photo safari outfit shows these scenes in their literature. On another note - that lioness looks simply defeated. Is this not considered harassment? | |||
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| One of Us |
What a complete JOKE. No damage being done to that eco system! Hunting is not a matter of life or death....It's much more important | |||
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That is really being "at one with nature"! | |||
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| One of Us |
Anyone know the location etc of those pics? Paints a different picture, no? | |||
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Didn't the Wall Street Journal just put out an article about hunting that said in Kenya they stopped hunting in 1977 with 20,000 lions there, and today, after nearly 40 years of only eco tourism there and zero hunting, there are now only 2,000 lions left? Seems to me that proves just how much damage is done to the population of a species when hunters are no longer paying to hunt those animals and their is no money in protecting them. | |||
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| one of us |
The illness photo is definitely Ngorongoro and the other must be at a migration crossing on the Mara river in Maasai Mara, Kenya "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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What a gong show!! I can't imagine paying to go to a place and deal with that. I live where my closest neighbour is a mile away and some days that feels to close. My idea of a holiday is never seeing another human being the whole time I am gone, other than the small group I am with. I'll never understand how anyone could enjoy that and how they could believe that is better for the local wildlife and the environment. Reminds me of Yellowstone during the summer. I'll never do that again either. LOL ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Do they feed the roads? I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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I wonder if one of the anti's can work out what the "carbon footprint" of all those tourists are as opposed to hunting the same area with a handful of trophy hunters ? I flew over Ngorogoro last year , actually just next to it. There was a huge dust cloud higher than the crater and as big as it left by all the game drive vehicles driving the circuit.  That sounds like an environmentally sound way of managing things.....  | |||
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| One of Us |
A lot of people want to have their recreation just like they live, crowded and on top of one another. Not many would enjoy the solitude of a hunting camp. I lived for a few years at a large lake. It was amazing on weekends in the summer how the beach areas would fill up with camp trailers, tents, etc. They were all getting away from it all for the weekend. Back to the grind on Monday. They don't know how to get away from it all at all. | |||
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| One of Us |
This has been worked out and the difference is HUGE. Jeff | |||
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| One of Us |
don't forget they only get one picture and then have to pay trophy fee for that picture. If it is blurry or the animal moved they still pay the trophy fee. | |||
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| One of Us |
Can't find the original source for this other than Lance Nesbitt's FB page, but some food for thought here:  | |||
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| One of Us |
As far as value created and staff employed, I think the argument would be that there are orders of magnitude more photographers than hunters. | |||
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| One of Us |
If we could read the lioness thoughts-assuming she is human in a different skin as the antis would have- she would be thinking. "Piss off you morons, any chance of a feed today has gone out the door because of you" | |||
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