In general - what would one look for in a 6+ year old lion under field conditions?

Fresh news form the just concluded Stakeholders meeting between Hunting outfitters and Game department:



No trophy from a hunted lion that is under the age of 6 years will be allowed to be exported as from this 2004 season.



The Game department is going to age ALL lion trophies before issuing trophy export documents.



They have commissioned Craig Packer and others to institute the system for aging. Details about how this will be done have not been disclosed yet.



I hope all lion hunters booked for Tanzania are listening....

Wow. An elephant tusk can be weighed and measured. But I'd think that aging a lion would be a bit more difficult. One would think the benefit of the doubt would go to the hunter/PH. Even if so, I'm sure many PH's will want to be absolutely sure before letting the hunter pull the trigger, as in the field this will not be as easy as in the lab.

Great in concept, and at least the people hunting with TGTS won't be in for a surprise. But I wonder how the guy who just picked up a 21-day cancellation hunt for a great price is going to take it... This on top of the CITES talk.

Yeah, just dropped a $4500 lion on a $50000 hunt, and find out later the lion was 5 years and 11 months old.

I am curious as to whether they can call it that close on humans much less lions.

Hope it's easier to age a lion than a deer...

I read a study lately where they sent photographs (live) and then the jawbone of whitetail deer of known age (they had been captive) to over a dozen deer biologists, asking them to age the deer.

The results were astounding. (I'm quoting from memory)Less than 1/4 got within 1 year on over half the deer, and the average error on their guess was something like 3 years (ie calling a 2 year-old 5 or a 10 year-old 7). What's more, the greater the age of the deer, the greater the error margin...

I would presume the same basics are used for aging a lion, no?

From memory;- apparently lion researchers in connection with Biologists down South have determined a system for aging lions by cross-secting one of the teeth (the one right behind any one of the canines). It is not fool proof but it does determine the age down to a couple of months. A data base was created several years ago using teeth from lions whose exact age was known and the teeth when cut horizontally show a "contour" structure (under a microscope) similar to ones in trees.



Obviously there must be some margin for error allowed and on a borderline case i suppose they will give the hunter/outfitter the benefit of the doubt. Now they are planning a workshop between the "consultants" (Packer, Viljoen et alia) and PH's/Outfitters to come up with a standardised set of parametes on how to correctly "age" a lion in the field. Obviously with the season just round the corner it is unlikely that this will be done any time before then so there must be some leniency on this first trial season.



This has all been brought about by the Kenya CITES proposal. The logic behind this decision is that when the CITES meeting comes, TZ will be able to say that they have a system in place that ensures sustainable offtake of lion.



Something figures to think about: According to these researchers (Packer, Viljoen,) Tanzania has approximately 50% of the entire free ranging lion population of Africa (didn't know that ). 70% of these are found in protected areas (parks).



Approximately 750 lions are killed yearly (hunting, PAC, poaching, disease, etc). The lion population in the Serengeti has boomed and is the highest in recent history. Ngorongoro Conservation Authority is having to introduce 8 females from a different genetic pool because of high inbreeding amongst the lions inside the crater that has reduced the fertility rate of females there.



It is now even more important than ever to make sure you hunt lion with an accomplished and very experienced PH....

A link to Dr. Craig Packer's Lion Research Center at the University of Minnesota.



February 2004 article in Science Journal



Study Predicts Conditions For Sustainable Lion Trophy Hunting



MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL -- Trophy hunters prize the regal lion above virtually all other animals, but shooting lions without overhunting is tricky. Excessive trophy hunting could open the door for too many young males to invade prides and kill all the cubs, causing a population decline. On the other hand, income from trophy hunting helps sustain African game reserves, which might otherwise be converted to small-scale agriculture. In an effort to reconcile the needs of lions and of people who manage their populations, University of Minnesota researchers simulated hunting using demographic data from actual lion populations. The study indicates that if hunting is limited to male lions age five and older, populations of any size can be sustained without bag limits. The study, which also describes a means of estimating lion ages in the field, will be published online Sunday, Feb. 22, in the journal Nature.



All African hunting reserves impose bag limits, or quotas, but quotas are supposed to be based on the size of an animal population. Lions, however, are hard to count. Using long-term data on lion behavior, mortality, reproduction and other characteristics gathered by University of Minnesota lion researcher Craig Packer, a team led by graduate student Karyl Whitman created a computer model to predict the effects of different hunting regimes on lion populations over a period of 50 years.



"This is one of very few studies on how hunting changes [lion] behavior and how we can manage hunting to improve its sustainability," said Whitman. "We've put forward two simple rules: You can sustainably shoot male lions without limits as long as they're 5 or older, and you can age lions before shooting them." As cubs, lions have noses that are soft pink to gray at the tips. After a lion reaches age 3, the nose starts to blacken in splotches. If a lion's nose tip is more than 50 percent black, the lion is probably at least 5 years old, the researchers said.



Lion hunting is a controversial activity, and pressures on guides to deliver lions, regardless of their quality as trophies, can be enormous. Clients may pay as much as $100,000 for a hunting safari, and for that amount of money they expect to take home a lion, Whitman said. Given such expectations, a guide could easily be tempted to allow shooting of sub-trophy animals to satisfy the customers. But if hunting were strictly limited to lions at least 5 years old and hunters had realistic expectations, both lion populations and hunting could continue indefinitely.



"I think something needs to be done," said Whitman. "The industry needs to better monitor itself, either at the national level or by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora.



"Also, many clients are told they'll definitely get a lion. If the clients were better educated about the chances of getting a good-quality trophy, they would probably be more willing to forego shooting a poorer quality--that is, young--animal, knowing this will improve the sustainability of lion hunting for the long term."



In the study, the researchers created theoretical populations of lions and subjected them to hunting of males at minimum ages between 3 and 6 and with quotas ranging from zero to 20 per year. Individual males were removed (shot) according to the age minimum, but without regard to whether they belonged to a pride or were nomadic. The data showed that after a few years of adjustment to hunting, the number of females stabilized no matter what the yearly quota, as long as only males 5 or older were taken. Female populations stabilized at a slightly higher number if only males 6 or older were taken.



"By maximizing the population, hunters maximize their harvest," said Packer, who is a co-author of the paper. "Another thing that would help is to have a mechanism to assess age after death, and then prohibit exportation of underage males." Such a mechanism does exist; the condition of a lion's teeth is a very good indicator of its age, said Whitman.



"If there's a well-regulated hunting industry, it's one of the best ways to preserve wildlife in Africa," said Packer. "The income helps sustain wildlife conservation. Without hunting, there would be less tolerance for lions [by local human residents]. We're trying to defuse some of the disagreement between hunters and conservationists."



Regards,



Terry

MHC_TX,

A dark nose.

Lion Ageing [In pdf format, takes a while to download if you are on dial-up].

Regards,

Terry

A 50% dark nose and, maybe, teeth. That nails it down!!!!!



P.S. As always, thanks Terry for digging up all this info.

Nobody, I think, would argue that this is a bad idea in principle--whether it's necessary is another question.

Also, how it can, as a practical matter, or will, as a political one, be implemented is yet another question.

This may help forestall Kenya's effort to drum up support for listing the lion as a CITES animal.

I'm not ready to celebrate or condemn this just yet. It bears watching closely.

I agree. I am all for sustainable lion hunting. If you define the break at 6 years, it would be a good idea to know pretty damn precisely how that is to be determined.

The game scout scratching his chin with an empty .375 case, the only 375 round he has had in the last two years, as the judgement standard may be a little scary.

IF, and it's a big IF, they can work out a program where you can accurately age lions in the field, then Dr. Packer's paper basically says that you can hunt all the 6+ year old lions you want -- without having a negative affect on the remaining lion populations of younger males, females and cubs.



That sounds like great news for hunters.



The kind of scientific research from a creditable researcher that CITES (or Kenya) can't ignore.



This probably won't make much difference in Botswana, since Dereck Joubert is the de facto wildlife official and Ian Khama's buddy (and business partner).



Regards,



Terry

But what happens when you, oops, shoot a 5 year old by accident. Is the PH going to cover the trophy fee? Ha!

Bill,

That's the BIG IF!

It certainly can't be the reponsability of the client to judge the age of the lion. Better have a pretty detailed provision in the contract about this with the outfitter. (Yes, even you will have to have a safari contract)

More likely, a lot less lion will be shot if the outfitter is going to have to give up his trophy fee from the client but still pay the fee to the government.

Regards,


Terry

I doubt it. Just don't pay the trophy fee until the lion has been judged 'legal' and an export permit has been issued.

I see this ending up as another African clusterfuck. Clients will either end up not getting their lion because the PHs cannot/will not guarantee exportability (client loses money unless he was hunting elephant, too), clients will shoot lions that don't pass muster despite the PH's best efforts and therefore can't be exported (client loses money), or people will figure out how to 'game' the system by either bribery or switching skulls.

I don't like it.

George

Guys,

This all sounds like a great idea that brings a couple of things to mind. First I'm sure the age determination would be pretty accurate after death because using a pulled tooth to figure age here in Alaska for bears lets ADF&G age bears in tenth of a year. Second when Alaska changed the sheep regs from 3/4 to 7/8 and then full curl for a legal ram the overall trophy quality increased tremendously. I would think the basic principal would apply to lions too. More older age class animals equal better trophies and more lions. Then thirdly as George suggested we have the "Africa" factor to consider. I'm sure instituting this policy will be a rocky road indeed.

Regards,

Mark

I would not go and read into this too much right now as nothing is in stone, and we should be more worried about the CITES meeting in October instead. I think that the idea is great and every PH should and should have been on this kind of wave lenght anyway. it is not very hard to look at a lion and tell that the lion is 5-6 years and older and that just comes with PH experience, but any PH should be able to tell what a good mature lion is without any problem. They have said 6 years old as the number, but you will not have any problem exporting any lion that is 5 years and older, as there is not that much of a difference in the way a 5 and 6 year old lion looks. It is a great concept though and should at least get the attention of all PH's to be more selective. It is a good move forward in selective hunting, but do not plan on it being strictly enforced to exactly 6 years old as there is no 100% solid way of telling age by just looking at a lion and being able to tell exactly what day or what month he was born. I think this idea for sure will be good though as it should start to keep some of the bad PH's in check a little and will cut down on the amount of lions shot every year.

I don't know if any of you remember, but about 4 years ago, Tanzania also made a new regulation on the length of leopards that could be exported. They said that a leopard had to be from tip of nose to base of tale which had to be 1.60 meters not including the tail. A tale of a leopard is usually around 3 feet, which would make this type of leopard a 7 foot leopard. Did you ever hear of any leopards not being exported????

Other news as well that was discussed in this meeeting is that bow hunting will be legal startig in 2005.

Trophy fees will also be raised for 2005, but no new numbers have been given and nothing in stone yet.

When I hunt Mr Spots there, I just take the measurement from the bait towards the trunk and then cut a blaze to ensure my length estimation is correct. But (depending on how well they age them) it will be a lot tougher to judge if a Lion is 5 years and 11 months or 6 years and 1 month!



......still, we'll manage.



.....I guess if we're worried, we can always leave the trophy in the skinning sheds for a few weeks extra

Adam-Could you shed any more light on the bowhunting status? Many rumors still circulate as to why it was stopped in the first place.Do you know anything about that and are you aware of who will be booking archery client? Thanks.

I truly feel sympathy for the guys that still want to hunt lion. The cost of lion hunting has skyrocketed the last couple years. Now that Botswana is at least temporarily if not permanently off limits, and Zim spiraling down, and 6-year old lions in Tanz, getting a lion is going to be grossly expensive.

Crane, No real idea or reason why bow hunting was stopped in tanzania except that at the time there were too many bad stories about bow hunting, and am sure politics was involved at some level. Even though it was "closed" to bowhunting though, we have still done several bow hunts and it was just a matter of going through a lot of red tape and getting special permission and special permits.

If you look in the record book, one our bow hunting clients Kevin Reid bow hunted with us and did very well in Tanzania and took the new #1 or #2 lion, #3 Hippo, and #3 Leopard with a bow. We have done a couple of bow hunts and they have all been very successful.

I already have several bow hunters booked for tanzania for 2006 and 2007, and we have great areas for bow hunting where the game is not hard to get close to. So, if you want to bow hunt in tanzania send me an e-mail.

AS one might expect some will approach this with their cup half full and others with their cup half empty...

I won't concern myself with things I have no control over and will just deal with it when the time comes.

A $100 bill would probably settle about any insermountable problem that crops up in Tanzania anyway Just kidding

If Zimbabwe crashes totally and it looks like it will, then you can bet Tanzania and the rest of the countries will be more expensive...thats the way it works....

Gentlemen,

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Nobody, I think, would argue that this is a bad idea in principle--whether it's necessary is another question.

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It is necessary in view of the upcoming Kenya proposal to CITES.

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The game scout scratching his chin with an empty .375 case, the only 375 round he has had in the last two years, as the judgement standard may be a little scary.

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Will, who have you been hunting with??? Jokes aside, I would rather consult the PH then most Game Scouts in Tanzania!

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But what happens when you, oops, shoot a 5 year old by accident. Is the PH going to cover the trophy fee? Ha!

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He bloody well should! As Adams states an experienced PH "should" be able to tell the difference and if he is not sure, not let the client shoot! Simple.

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I see this ending up as another African clusterfuck. Clients will either end up not getting their lion because the PHs cannot/will not guarantee exportability (client loses money unless he was hunting elephant, too), clients will shoot lions that don't pass muster despite the PH's best efforts and therefore can't be exported (client loses money), or people will figure out how to 'game' the system by either bribery or switching skulls.

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True and this is where clients have a responsability, as well as the outfitter, to prevent this from happening. A PH that has f...ed up because he has "no clue" should be blacklisted. Genuine errors accepted. Every country has a PH Association that "should" be responsible for taking disciplinary action against "useless" ph's including not allowing them to operate in the country any longer

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Other news as well that was discussed in this meeeting is that bow hunting will be legal startig in 2005

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And the trophy fees and Gov fees for bow hunters will be double that for rifle hunters. Go figure....Before anyone thinks it, you cannot come as a rifle hunter and also bring a bow

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It is not terribly difficult but it does take a fair bit of time (six months to a year here in Alaska for a hunter to find out from the Department how old their bear was). Thus, unless the Tanzania Game Dept. can process the lions a bit faster that here in Alaska it could pose a problem with shipment of the lion trophy to the US.

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I agree and that is where I think the biggest problem will be. Delays in issuing export permits. I also find it hard to immagine that the aging will be done by Game Deprtment officials inititally. Most don't have the experience to tell the difference on a live lion let alone from the skin and skull alone (of course some are pretty obvious as these pictures show). Will they be assessed by Packer or one of his colleagues?

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truly feel sympathy for the guys that still want to hunt lion. The cost of lion hunting has skyrocketed the last couple years. Now that Botswana is at least temporarily if not permanently off limits, and Zim spiraling down, and 6-year old lions in Tanz, getting a lion is going to be grossly expensive.

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And rightly so! It is arguably the most regal of animals and the most sort after trophy in Africa. However, 10 years down the line when the population has substantially increased, prices could come down. I am more amazed at some of the prices of white tail deer and elk hunts then those of lion hunts!

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Even though it was "closed" to bowhunting though, we have still done several bow hunts and it was just a matter of going through a lot of red tape and getting special permission and special permits.

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Very interesting as I know of outfitters who failed miserably in securing "special" bow hunitng permits in recent years

Well, that is all fine and good, but there are a lot of guys that would like to hunt lion that do not have the money that I'll bet you spent to get that one.

Will,
That is not me in the pic. I wouldn't wear such a hat!
The pic is from a TGT lion that was taken last season.
I happened to pass by their offices around the time and saw the skull in their trophy shed! By the way, that one was estimated at 12+ years old! Its worthwhile passing up on a 4-5 year old if this is what you get

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I don't know if any of you remember, but about 4 years ago, Tanzania also made a new regulation on the length of leopards that could be exported. They said that a leopard had to be from tip of nose to base of tale which had to be 1.60 meters not including the tail. A tale of a leopard is usually around 3 feet, which would make this type of leopard a 7 foot leopard. Did you ever hear of any leopards not being exported????

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Adam while you are right on this, I would not encourage anyone to attempt this any longer. Heavy fines to Outfitters and PH's will be handed down. That is right NOT to clients! trophies will probably still be allowed to be exported as one thing the GD is fair on is being lenient to clients on such matters as generally it is not their fault!

This sounds like a good initiative. Just like hunters in the US/elsewhere that winge when hunting becomes more regulated, they are now happy the trophy quality has improved. If we are to maintain some kind of a 'hunter-conservationist' status, you have to care about the effects of your actions!
I am sure that all the safari companies will reach some form of agreement regarding who pays if the lion doesn't pass muster. But in the long run, after a couple errors maybe, the PHs will become better judges. Tanzania is already supposed to have some of the most stringent requirements to be a PH, so the quality can only get better.
By the way Ray, the glass isn't half empty, it's too big

Well how would you rate the 7 day 'PH schools' in RSA? Are they a waste of time, or do they actually give a person the edge?

Is that just for Plains game PH license or for DG as well? I don't know much about RSA licensing but I believe they have different categories. In TZ the PH license means you can guide DG too - even if you have NEVER shot a DG animal before.....

No, I believe there are written examinations too! Maybe one of the real McCoys on this board can tell us.
I guess either way, it is a balance between protecting the consumer and being a pain in the ass. The best PHs don't really get that way through exams!
Bwana, do you think the regulations will have an effect on the method of hunting? Will morning hunts be better? Will people attempt to scout out the populations in their concession and decide what is 'shootable' before the client arrives?
Although it might reduce the excitement of the hunt, if a PH pre-baits certain areas then examines the lions with binoculars, the chances of a mistake are probably smaller than with a spur of the moment decision. Any thoughts?

It shouldn't have too much of an impact on "how" they are hunted as the methods you stated are already being used extensively. The important thing will be the standard criteria adopted by the Game Dpt to age lions in the field. Packer is a great proponent of the "black nose" theory so assume that will be part of the standards. In this case, try to immagine making out whether a lions nose is half black or a third black under following field conditions:
- Poor light conditions of Twilight or dusk. the time cats most often come to bait.
- Through Binoculars of about 7-8 power! maybe now is the time to invest in those spotting scopes!
- 1-2 foot grass and other vegetation cover obstructing field of view.
- The lion stands broadside at a bait. This is the preferred position for shooting and the blinds are set up to offer this view to the hunter.
- Surrounding area is burnt and a lot of ash is about which is "grey/black".


IMO a rushed decision to shoot any animal let alone a lion should be avoided at all costs, especially under current conditions. Better leave it and lose the opportunity (no financial loss just aggravation ) then shoot it and lose it (with financial loss ).

Ultimately, outfitters will have to be up front to the clients at the time of negotiating a safari. If the client knows what the rules are then it is their choice to book or not.

I talked to Pierre van Tonder on the Lion thing, and he is totally unconcerned about it saying that has been the policy of all the good safari companies for quite some time and the upside is that it is a good method for conserving the good Lion hunting...He is all for it...

BTW getting a PH license in Tanzania is fairly simple today, a very easy written exam and a couple of thousand dollars will get one, and I could have simply bought one at one time for $2000, and skipped the exam, but that administrator is gone to the great beyond now, but who knows Actually, I doubt that just any nitwit that walks could walk in and get a license, it would take knowing someone, some recommedations, and them knowing you had some knowledge of the sport, I suspect...

At any rate I had no use for a PH license then or now as I'm where I need to be in this game, and a license would put me to work and I would no longer be a hunter, and I would be working for someone else and not making any money.., not a good deal from my perspective...I will do my guiding in the New Mexico on my sub leased Mule deer and antelope ranches, not in Africa where I love to hunt...

I know some booking agents in the past that got PH licenses of one kind or another for show purposes and prestiege, which I consider trite in the highest order, and it should not be allowed...