just wondering which is the better bullet combination in the 416 rem, the 400 gn swift or the TBBC
Daniel

You will get plenty of opinions on this subject. Either bullet is well proven with great reputation. Shoot the one that gives you the best groups. Either will do the job if you do yours.

Let your rifle tell you which one it likes better. If it shoots them both the same, then it's a coin toss. Both are excellent bullets.

I agree with both of the other guys but would recommend you also consider the Barnes triple shok. I have only hunted buff 4 times but have decided that , at least for me , the t/s does the work of both the soft and the solid. They open up well and due to their homogenous construction are very tuff. jmo. Adrian

I reckon bullet choice causes more debate than most things, but personally I hate TBBC with a vengence.........In fact I consider them one of the two worst bullets on the market today.

However, might I also suggest Woodleigh SP or PSP dependent on what you plan to take.

Here is a 500gr A-frame from my Lott, that went through a 7 inch diameter tree, before braining my buff.[URL= ]a[/URL] It was recovered from the brain.

STEVE
why do you not like them so much!!what results have you had that lead you to those deep seated feelings

Just seen too many of 'em fail on too many animals over the years. I doubt a year goes by that I don't see at least one TBBC fail on something. Personally I reckon they're about as much use as a one legged man at a arse kicking party.....

I have used TBBC bullets in the 308 [165gr] and in the 300 Win Mag [200gr], and have recovered enough of them to say they are one of my most favorite bullets.
I have also used 2 TBBC from a 458Win Mag, the first saving my life and the second finishing the deal.

Also we recovered a 470 Nitro 500gr TBBC from a pig, length wise shot, bullet found on ground 2 feet from pig.

In my 450 No2 Double rifle I have used the 500gr Swift A frame and the 480 Woodleigh Soft, both on cape buff and eland, and recovered them.

I recovered 3 .408 diameter Woodleigh Softs from a lion shot with my 450/400 3 1/4" double at 2200fps. I shot a cape buff with these softs as well.

In ALL cases these bullets performed perfectly, giving great penetration and great expansion.

I would use the one that your rifle likes the best. When shooting cape buff I prefer a SOFT, that will not exit the buff on a broadside shot.

If I need a lot of penetration such as on a going away shot of a charge I use a solid. No doubt made easier since I use a double and load one of each when hunting buff.

My wife shot a cape buff with my 400 double with a .408 diameter Barnes X bullet, at 2100fps.
It was quartering toward her.

The bulllet was recovered, giving excellent penetration and perfect X bullet type expension.

I have shot a pig with a 400gr X bullet [same load as above] and a pig with a 300gr X bullet at 2260fps from the 400 double and both were not recovered but did cause massive wounds, the pigs dropping to the shot.

Any of these bullets should work great.

I would estimate penetration and expension to be something like this:

Most expansion, less penetration to less expension, most penetration...

Woodleigh Soft... TBBC... Swift A Frame... Barnes X... Then of course the various solids.

Have any of you tried the GS Custom 330gr HV's or 410gr FN's on Buffalo? Would be interested in the results. I have a friend planning a Buff hunt who loves the bullets performance on smaller game, but due to both of them always exiting he has not had an opportunity to recover one. That said even with the solids the wound channels and bone damange are enough to bring the Eland an Kudu down in short order.
Looking forward to any feedback
Thanks
Ian

Shakari

I am curious as to why you do not like the TBBC?

I like the A-Frame myself. About 17 African animals including buffalo and all perfect performance. Hey, I thought shitaway was in africa? jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I like the A-Frame myself. About 17 African animals including buffalo and all perfect performance. Hey, I thought shitaway was in africa? jorge

I just got back today.I just came back from the photo development center with all 6 rolls of developed film.

Welcome back....jorge

The late George Hoffman showed me a bucket full of 400 grain 416 Swifts taken from buffalo before he died.

All from his 416 Hoffman.

Talk about consistency!

It does not take a genius to design a bullet that holds together at only 2,400 fps w a SD of .340 but the 416 Swift is one of the "benchmark" bullets of African hunting.

Problem with TBBC is that Speer changed the original recipe and now uses gilding metal rather than pure copper and lead.

It makes a surprising, and verifiable difference in performance!

I'd go with the Swift even though Ive used the original Jack Carter TBBC for many years in .223, 25-06, and .308 w complete satisfaction.

Andy

Swift

Hi:

Swift Aframes for the big stuff always. Nosler partitions for plains game and Elk size animals.

Regards... Jim P.

I've read a ton of bullet reports.....and a very few negatives on the TBBC....only once on the A-Frame which I discarded and absolutely none on the Woodleighs.

Although I've not used A-Frames over .30 caliber personally I'd still go with them.

Would someone buy that Northfork outfit and bring them back!!!!!!

Swifts, never look back.

M 98, good question. Given the question you asked, I vote Swift. I have been taking my .416 Rem to Africa for over a dozen years now. Since I load my rounds I am in control of bullet velocity. I load plenty of Swift and in the past I also loaded TBBC. I tend to push the cartridge tolerances to get all the speed I can. For that reason the terminal performance of the bullet is severely tested. The "worst case scenario" for a bullet is to be fired into a massive object at close range (close to muzzle velocity). These conditions tend to shatter a bullet. My observation is that the Swift (with its better controlled expansion) tends to hold up to these extreme conditions better. In contrast, the TBBC comes apart more. This is another way of saying that the TBBC is a faster expander.

These conditions will also test the performance of the TSX. I load plenty of TSX. I find that the TSX is a much faster expander than original Barnes-X, although TSX wins over B-X in accuracy. Under these extreme conditions my TSX loads become mangled and torn-up, but not as much as the TBBC does.

If you were just looking at low-speed, down-range performance I suspect you would find not much difference between Swift and TBBC. Sounds like you have a good gun. Have a great hunt.

I have used the GS Customs bullets in the .416 and 404 and they are fantastic..I also like the flat nose solids..

The most overlooked buffalo bullet in .416 is the new 400 gr. Nosler..It really is a super bullet on buffalo. Nosler moved the partition further forward and it expands to 60 to 65 caliber everytime blowing out the small amount of lead and the resulting bullet looks like a picture of a perfectly expanded Barnes X....but you must shoot them lengthwise to recover the bullets..They normally (roughly 90% of the time) make a big exit hole on broadside shots, if not they will stop on the offside skin..

Another great bullet in the .416 is the Woodleigh PP 450 gr.

All of the Swifts and Barnes X bullets I have seen used expanded perfectly on buffalo, but I believe the Swifts to be too smooth after expansion, and not do the internal damage that the Barnes X, Woodleighs,Noslers and GS Customs bullets do, thus they don't put them down as fast.....

I'm a fan of the TBBC but there are no flies on Swift bullets either. We had both with us on a recent Oz buff hunt. 300 gr TBBC in my 375 thumped 'em hard, 2 animals with one shot. A scrub bull on the run did require 2 shots, 1 in the ass and a 2nd finisher after he was down. All the bullets exited except the frontal chest shot and I didn't want to dig around in there to find it. My buddy shot A-Frames in Rem factory loads. He had similar results. Both are good IMO.

I've had great success with the 300gr TBBC in the 375H&H with every recovered bullet looking like it belonged in a mgazine add. Even one that went through and along the spine of an eland.

JPK

Swift's for me.

M98

Given the choices offered in the question I'd pick the Swift for consistent performance. I have used both with no complaints. Recently I've become a big fan of the TSX for about everything.

Mark

Here are the two 500gr A-frames recovered from my buff.The one that is fully expanded went through a 7 inch diameter tree before penetrating the skull and stopping in the buffs brain.The other hit the shoulder joint as the buff was angled slightly away and was found under the skin on the opposite side.I don't know why it did not mushroom like the other.It did its job and broke the buffs shoulder,brusing him badly and immobilizing him.I believe it hit a solid object at an angle to it and not tissue straight on from the start.Some say bullet failure but I don't know what to call it or if another bullet would have reacted differently.[URL= ] [/URL]

Shootaway,

Do you recall how you found the bullet under the skin?

For the copper jacket to be folded over like that (on top of the lead), it must have been going sideways or backwards?

In other words, it may have "tumbled" after expanding but still remained largely intact.

Andy

Its bent too.

JPK

Andy,I think the bullet was found sideways under the skin.It left a sideways impression on the skin that was visible from outside the buff.We think the bullet may have hit the shoulder joint as the buff was angled and the bullet missed the lungs and passed through the stomach.Here is the entrance hole.[URL= ] The buff was angled exactly as it is angled to the camera in this pic.