A parks ranger was killed on monday dealing with a "problem animal" (he was shooting for bush meat and beer money but we cannot admit that). There has been considerable comment locally and in some diplomatic circles on parks using 40+ rounds for each elephant that they shoot in front of tourists, 35 rounds for a buffalo (the one pictures were posted of on AR) etc.

Parks are getting sensitive over all the bad press- and so this week blamed the ammunition. We had over 100 thousand rounds of A square .375 and .458 win in the main armoury a couple of years ago, and some stations still have good stock piles...however, some bright spark (P. Gorge) condemed the A square ammo - wrote it off the books (and then sold it around the sub region), leaving head office and some stations with almost no ammo for their heavy rifles.

So, the new idiot in charge of the armory is told to go and buy suitable ammo.From a brief case arms dealer he manages to buy both .375 & .458 at only TWICE the price of Federal Premium in the main gun shop.

It tuens out that this is NGA practice ammo loaded with Frontier plated bullets. Thats right, soft lead bullets with a 10 though thick copper coat. In .375 the flat nosed 300grn bullets at 2250fps might work on a buff if the angles are perfect. The 300grn .458 bullets at 2100fps will not even penetrate through a trunk.... oh dear.

The .458 "soft point" ammo that was bought is loaded with .350grn round nosed soft point bullets (look like seiera) intended for the .45-70. also loaded to 2150fps. They actually penetrate deeper than the "solid" looking plated bullets!

There is much chest beating, but if any of your appies scrounge some ammo off parks or buy some cheep out of the armory back door... Be afraid.

Only in Africa!

Ganyana, the guys from Frontier are still pissed at me for condemming their bullets as only suitable for parctice in an Magnum article. At the time they advertised it as just the ticket for DG, after one guy shot a "charging" buff in the head with it. (Lucky shot, it died.) I called them irresponsible, and according to my friend that owns "The Gunshop" in Windhoek, the owner of Frontier (whose also his friend), is still a little sour because of my statement!

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

So, the new idiot in charge of the armory is told to go and buy suitable ammo.From a brief case arms dealer he manages to buy both .375 & .458 at only TWICE the price of Federal Premium in the main gun shop.

...sounds like remunerative business - hum who said that Zim is not a state of opportunity ?

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Originally posted by mouse93:

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

So, the new idiot in charge of the armory is told to go and buy suitable ammo.From a brief case arms dealer he manages to buy both .375 & .458 at only TWICE the price of Federal Premium in the main gun shop.

...sounds like remunerative business - hum who said that Zim is not a state of opportunity ?

Make some dough buying it, and make some dough writing it off and selling it again.

Who says this guy is an idiot?

Karl,
we are in the same boat with the lad from Frontier. When I insisted that he market the bullet purely for practice purposes about 18 months back he was fit to be tied. He told me that he had developed it for big game hunting as the ideal premium solid, and was supported by numerous PH experts including his brother in law. I had just heard from Ganyana about a parks board lad who came off second best against an irate elly, and when I related this to him he blamed it on the marksmanship of the deceased. BTW, some of these same experts claimed in a later article in a local hunting journal to have fired a 4" group at 1400m using these bullets in a 375 H&H 300gr. When they were challenged by readers to prove it, they melted into the cow patties and have not been heard/from of since.

The outrage of crooks and morons when they are publicly exposed is an amazing thing.

I wish that I had only half as much gall.

This is typical of those in charge of things belonging to the gov, that can be sold for money in their pockets.

It's not just in Africa but when one realizes that in Africa, graft is, not only SUSPECTED, but is EXPECTED! Never mind people are killed because of this graft, long black limousines are far more important than what is good for the country's employees, and the public in general!

I will say here, I don't like, or use A-Square ammo ,but it is far better than ammo with lead bullets with a copper coating, no matter what Frontier says! Federal is better than either of those two brands, but this guy wasn't going to make as much money off the perchase of good ammo, from a local gun shop, at half the price of the junk!

Ganyana's post is upsetting, but not unexpected, and I think all the citizens of most African countries, were better off under colonialism! One fine example is Robber BOB! of ZIM! His wife spending $2,000,000 US IN Harrod's of London in one day, while the people of thier country starve!

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BTW, some of these same experts claimed in a later article in a local hunting journal to have fired a 4" group at 1400m using these bullets in a 375 H&H 300gr. When they were challenged by readers to prove it, they melted into the cow patties and have not been heard/from of since.

Yes, I have read the article, 500nitro, and the subsequent challenges after that. I was given some of the first bullets to test, a 600gr .458 to test in my .450 Rigby. I was told to not exeed 2000, as they were supposed to perform best there-abouts. I sinned by loading them to 2011 ft/sec, must be why they disintegrated on an already down & dead buffalo. (I was not willing to try it as a backup, as I had dissected one by before the hunting season.) My report was ridiculed, and my bona fides questioned again on the SHOT show, when I approched a Frontier sales rep (that had no I idea who or what I was) about this failure. I still use the stuff for practice, and noticed that they recently started to make a "real" monolithic solid, sort of like a cross between GS Custom and Dzombo. Also, they are trying to copy Barnes Tripleshock -X bullets now.

500nitro, remember that the dumbass that was involved in developing it (the same one claiming that groups over 1400meters), is a handgun hunter, so they reconed that a reduced velocity could have the bullet perform as they had hoped. Their first ad in the local press, (and this after my report on the bullet has reached them), where of a hunter facing off a elephant bull head on- loaded by (drum roll......) CS Game Ranger, the ultimate solid.... Another article also appeared at the same time, of another PH that believed this to be the best ever solid, as he has shot the sum total of ONE buffalo bull succesfully (supposedly) in a charge. This was what proptmted me to write the article "Bullet Savvy" for the Magnum- though mostly on "softs".

No one should manufacture or sell DG caliber ammunition that is suitable "for practice purposes only."

But it's hard to fault Frontier alone when the stuff that Hornady sells is little better.

As for the bureaucratic stupidity exhibited in this case . . . where does one start? Unreal.

It is amazing some of the things you see going on in Zim. Last year we had a very nice young man from the Omay Tribal Council as our game scout. In the past the tribal scouts were armed with Ak-47s but this year the scout was carrying a Ruger 30-06 that was given to the tribal council by the safari operator. It seems in it's infinite wisdom the gov took away the AKs from the tribal councils for some reason. The Ruger that the scout was carrying had no sights, none, nada, zip! I asked to see the ammo he was carrying and it was Remington 150 grain soft nosed. He did say he killed an elephant with that rifle a couple of months before with a few solid military rounds.

465H&H

quote:

BTW, some of these same experts claimed in a later article in a local hunting journal to have fired a 4" group at 1400m using these bullets in a 375 H&H 300gr. When they were challenged by readers to prove it, they melted into the cow patties and have not been heard/from of since.

Wow! That thar's some fancy shootin'.

Let's see, 1 MOA is one inch at 100 yards...so 4 inches at 1400 meters is under .2 MOA.

To put that into perspective, the world record for long range shooting with a 50 BMG is a group a tad under 4 inches at 1000 yards. With VLD solid bronze bullets. With a rifle over 40 pounds. With a barrel 3 feet long. With a bullet weighing in at about 750 to 800 grains.

In the 40 caliber class, the world record at 1000 yards is about the same using 420 grain solid bronze VLD bullets. And I have a rifle weighing about 25 pounds made by Bill Shehane in 408 caliber that shot a group under 5 inches at 1000 yards the first time out - I was not the shooter, Bill was.

But I am simply in awe of the man who shot a 4 inch group at 1400 meters with a hunting rifle and hunting bullet in 375 caliber weighing 300 grains!

Yeah, I would have called BS on this as well. He wasn't using a 375 with a 1375 meter length barrel, was he?

Would someone be kind enough to post a link to that article?

Bill I will find it, and scan it in, and send to you via email, if you can let me have an email adress. BTW- I can only be jealous at what kind of ordnace you guys are allowed to own. All we can do is foam at the mouth...
If I remember correctly, it was a semi-custom rifle witha truvelo barrel on a K-98 action, fitted to a wooden stock. someone correct me if iI am wrong

quote:

He wasn't using a 375 with a 1375 meter length barrel, was he?

Hi Karl

We were given several hundred of those .458 600grn "super Penetrator" bullets to try out on the proficiency exam. Charlie Haley loaded them in .458 win @ 1700fps and .458 Lott at 2000fps. We had two spectacular failures and charlie tried to reclaim all the ammo at the end of the exam before somebody got hurt. However, a few rounds went awol and a council scout got himself killed using them.

And those were the ard cast 600grn with 15 thou copper coat. The 10,000 new ones parks have are 300grn soft cores with 10 though copper plate!

Ganyana, that's exactly the same ones they gave me to test. I reread the article they had recently in a SA magazine (not Magnum), and the author claimed that that single buffalo that was shot "just below the bosses" had that 600gr bullet (at normal .458 win mag velocities, which I assume would also be around 1700ft/sec as in you post) completely penetrate the skull, smashed the neck vertebra, travelled "THROUGH" the spine, and was found on the buttocks, retaining roughly 50% of its weight. Now that is impressive from an "expanding" solid!

We had the chance this year to tag along with parks on an elephant cull. Of the five game scouts and one chief warden no one had the proper equipment. One guy had no front sight, one guy was shooting a 458 that had no lands or grooves left, and the rest of the crowd were shooting softpoints. No one seemed to care because the had no intention in actually shooting any of the cows that needed culling. The idea was to drive around until they used up the allotment of diesel fuel then return to the station. After shooting a cow the chief warden asked me if I really killed it with just one shot. It seems that if they do shoot at these cows they sort of flock shoot and wait for the locals to report any dead animals. We did follow up and shoot a wounded cow from one of these adventures. It seems they have no liability so if someone gets killed by a wounded cow its farmer beware!

Gunny- where were you hunting - Botswana, Moz, Zambia or Zim? The standard of marksmanship in all four is fairly dismal, but the fine rifles you describe sound like Zim issue ones.

And we want to cull 10,000 elephants next year??

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And we want to cull 10,000 elephants next year??

I will be more than happy to pay my airfare, bring my own rifles and bullets and help with how ever many you can set me up on. You of course are requried to supply the coke, Old Mull, Sodza and poitjie ingredients. Just trying to help out a friend!



Brian

Just got these photos from Ganyana.

Please find attached the photos I took of the rifle that the deceased was carrying (note lack of front sight) and the ammo that has been issued to stations!

A full report from Charlie Haley will be in the African Hunter, along with all the photo’s from the bullet tests into wet pack and elephant leg bone that he conducted this week end.

The owners/proprietors of both the bullet manufacturer (Frontier Bullets - Nic Ekonomakis) and NGA who loaded the ammunition should be held criminally liable for misrepresenting those bullets as suitable for hunting.

/

I am beginning to think that Alf has a digital photo of everything he has ever seen or read...

quote:

BTW, some of these same experts claimed in a later article in a local hunting journal to have fired a 4" group at 1400m using these bullets in a 375 H&H 300gr. When they were challenged by readers to prove it, they melted into the cow patties and have not been heard/from of since.

quote:

Now as to that article on the 375 and the 400 gr bullets and the long distance shooting, I took the author on directly and it turned into a huge spat between myself and mainly his brother who did most of the defending. I note with satisfaction that Lucas Potgieter tongue in cheek took him down in a local publication.

Hey Alf & 500 Nitro,

I don't want to involve either of you in any more unpleasantness with these people, but I would like to know the name of this author and self proclaimed world class shooter.

Also, what were the local SA publications where an interested person could find Dr. Potgieter's comments, and also the publication where the original claims were made about the 4" group at 1400m.

I have personally seen a 4 inch group @ 1000 yards fired from a .30-378 Weatherby using 180gr. TSX's, so although it is not beyond the realm of possibility, I would think that the probability of such a shot from a .375 H&H with 300gr. bullets would be virtually nil.

Thanks,

Alan

/

I think its Craig Klintworth, hes a smith and barrel maker

www.mkonto.co.za

Cheers

/

/

ALF, Dr Potgioeter also wrote a letter to the SA Hunters mag, even more direct. I will try and find it

Ganyana, We were hunting tribal lands in Zimbabwe. I think the whole idea is to get safari operators to do all the culling and parks employees share in the meat distribution. If there is enough meat then they trade it to the croc farm for beer money.

I have a raft of the 300gr CS bullets and all I use them for is plinking and hunting competitions. The first lot that came out for the 375 were about 1 thou undersized and they slid through a sized 375 case. The dealer sent them back and I got them replaced. Not tried them on game like impala yet, but I am sure they would be up to snuff. I asked the manufacturers to put a crimp groove on the 300gr bullets but they have not listened.

That gilding thing ALF mentioned bothers me a bit - I think I may go moly with them....

That front sight looks identical to the one on the game scouts rifle from my 05 hunt in the Selous. At least the zim guys had bullets. Ours did not and luckly the first gent was shooting a 375 H&H so we had some spare ammo for him to load in his gun. The second scout was SOL since he was shooting a 458 win and we did not have any in that caliber. He still carried that rifle everywhere. I guess he thought it would work well as a club