Quick poll regarding lion hunting. If it can be shown that hunters can shoot all the 6+ year old lions that they can find, with no consequence to the wild lion populations. Would you support a system where the export countries have no quotas. But won't issue an export permit for younger lions. <BR><BR>This could keep lion hunting open pretty much forever.Would you support a system where the export countries have no lion quotas. But won't issue an export permit for lions under 6 years of age.Yes this seems reasonableNo this would never work (add why plz)

Interesting that no one has commented....my lion was aged at 6 1/2

I agree. Too bad really because it seems like a reasonable way to ensure long term sustainable hunting.

Packer has a study/model that suggests you can take all the 6 year old and older males with zero population impact. However if you go younger the lions die out pretty quickly.

With responsible outfitters this may be workable, but extremely conservative quottas may be better for others. Perhaps give each concession holder a choice????? Either this definite conservative quotta or you get to shoot at your own descretion , but the roof will be pulled down on you if you screw up?????? Maybe???? What do you all thing?

Brett

The elegance of this is that it is controlled at the country level. Submit teeth with the paperwork to export the trophy. If it is old enough you get the paperwork, if not then bummer.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Quick poll regarding lion hunting. If it can be shown that hunters can shoot all the 6+ year old lions that they can find, with no consequence to the wild lion populations. Would you support a system where the export countries have no quotas. But won't issue an export permit for younger lions.

This could keep lion hunting open pretty much forever.

Won't work.

Bad operators will, one way or another, manage to export the trophies, regardless of age.

JohnHunt,

It would need to be endorsed by the importing country but the tooth aging method has its flaws.

The only way I know you can be sure of a Lion's age before you shoot him is to demand to see his driver's license. Even that has flaws since they've learned to forge those too.

I voted "NO" because it is impossible to prevent younger animals being shot & not exported.

The other problem is to match an older skull with a younger skin. Who can tell the difference or control the problem?

The idea has great merit if the permits also specify 6+ years as the minimum with some sort of disincentive for shooting young animals.

Don't over analyze. There would be a lot of things that would have to be worked out. Not the least figuring out how to age a lion on the hoof.

Just trying to get a read if this would have any traction.

The disincentive for shooting a young lion = not getting the hide home.

The incentive is you can shoot all the 6 year olds you want and it doesn't damage the overall lion population. It is a win for the sustainability aspect of what we do.

Here's the one thing I'm not sure about......Scenerio 1: So you're a quality outfitter and you have 4 lion on quota. You decide to sell 4 lion hunts and what gets shot is shot, but the hunters get a fair shot at success. 2 lion get shot you have 50% rate of success. 3 lions get shot you have a 75% rate of success. Scenerio 2: So you're the same quality outfitter and you're allowed to shoot as many 6 year olds as you want. You sell ???????????? lion hunts? And ?????????? people go home empty? How many do you sell? I assume you make a guess, but taking a really old lion is a hell of a lot of luck. You could have a lion hunter in camp every week of the season and and only see 1 or 2 legal lions. Then the last hunter of the year is there and a ancient lion wanders in from somewhere else!!!! You just don't know. So how do you determine how to do it? Perhaps sell chances at a lion like TGT, but unsuccessful hunters get a break in price and still can hunt the other animals on a 21 day license????? I don't know. Just thinking. Scenerio 3: Usangu Safaris (read shitty/immoral/unscrupulous outfitter) can shoot all the lions they want of 6 years or older. They sell as many "discount lion hunts" as they can. 10-15-20 in a season if they can. They then shoot any close enough lion they see. They then either bribe the government to let it go through transit or they just don't give a damn if the client loses his trophy because you can always find another customer at those prices.

Brett

JohnHunt,

If we can shoot 6 year plus and this is acceptable to all then great. If the Lion is proved to be less than six and is confiscated and the client is returned his money then great. The outfitter is fined and the responsible PH fired. Note this system was implemented in Tanzania and no Lions were taken mainly because the PH did not want to make the call. These actions proved very costly to the visiting sportsman and I felt that they should have been reimbursed.

To identify young (3-4 years) Lion in the field is fairly easy but becomes almost impossible to judge the difference between a 5 and 6 year old.

The younger Lions taken are for the most nomads who are looking to infiltrate a pride. I am not sure how the shooting of these males disrupts the social order? This only further protects the dominate pride males and their offspring?

Ultimately you are pulling the trigger. If the male is with a pride then do not shoot him. If he is spotty or cute looking then turn him down. Prior to the safari ask your operator if he has 5 - 6 year plus Lions in his area? Does he have proof, references, research data etc. If you do not make contact with such a beast or shoot a lesser animal is he prepared to downgrade the safari?

I think it is about time we all took more responsibility and on an individual level.

A good discussion.......hopefully it remains civil!

I voted yes........... though i absolutely concur that there are many regulatory issues that need to be worked out.

In my opinion, any regulatory process REQUIRES VOLUNTARY participation by the Private hunting sector of any given country. A majority vote by operators should secure this on behalf of the whole industry.

With this done, one can set-up a comittee consisting of voted in, experienced and prominant members of the hunting industry. Representation on the comittee should include PH association, Operators Association, Wildlife Research institute and Wildlife Division. This comittee "makes the call" on all lion trophies prior to export. A representative for each lion trophy should be present at the time trophies are being examined for transparency.

Evidence that is required to be presented to the comittee should include, but not be limited to:
1- Photographic evidence of the lion trophy showing - side on full body shot, frontal shot, close-up shot of teeth, close-up shot of nose, any other distinguishing feature.
2- Boiled skull, PRE-BLEACHED for examination
3- X-ray of 1st pre-molar
4- Any other information as requested by the comittee

Once the decision is taken, it is final and there is no recourse for appeal (??).

Penalties for non-compliance in presenting required evidence to be handed out to PHs and company.

Penalties for not meeting the required trophy standard to be metted out to PHs and operators.

I think clients should be exempt from penalties and should receive their trophies regardless. However, if the trophy did not meet standard, the client receives a polite letter from the comittee explaining the decision for their own awareness and hopefully this will lead them to want to "educate" themselves on the subject. Basic literature on the issue and conservation of lion through sport hunting as well as a "field guide for aging lions" can be part of the package sent to a client whose trophy did not qualify due to his PHs mistake or inexperience.

Trophy Shipments, in general, WILL be delayed as a result of the time required ofr this process to be thorough...

These are just some ideas. Having said that, leaving things "as is" is the WRONG solution!

Fairgame,
I totally disagree with you if you are saying that clients should be refunded their money if they are unsuccessful at killing a trophy lion! If they want a 100% success then they should go to SA while there are still lion in cages left.

I wonder if this one is Old or has just indulged in too many sweets????

it obviously got too close to a zebras a$$!

I think there's more chance of pigs flying supersonic than there is of that working. The idea is very laudable but in reality has more holes in it than a seine net.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
I agree. Too bad really because it seems like a reasonable way to ensure long term sustainable hunting.

Packer has a study/model that suggests you can take all the 6 year old and older males with zero population impact. However if you go younger the lions die out pretty quickly.

If the 6+ year old lion is holding a pride with dependent young then when he's shot, it's almost certain that the cubs will be killed by the incoming male(s) and that will impact the population.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Fairgame,
I totally disagree with you if you are saying that clients should be refunded their money if they are unsuccessful at killing a trophy lion! If they want a 100% success then they should go to SA while there are still lion in cages left.

Note I was referring to what happened in Tanzania. And whilst I applaud this as conservation measure it was the unfortunate hunters who ultimately paid the price for that decision?

If you have a good record of producing quality Lion (50% plus?) and up to date references to prove it then fair enough, but it is of my opinion that many sell what they have not got and to protect the hunter, the backbone of our industry, then why not downgrade the safari?

Bwanamich,

Don't you think that shooting a 6yo pride holder is a bad thing???

For me...#1 criteria...NOT a pride holder. #2 Older mature male (probably > 6 yr).

The above rule does not provide for not taking the pride male and may actually encourage it.

But...the more I study...there might be a time and a place...that it is good management to shoot a younger lion.

EG: You have a stable pride with good middle aged male in control. The pride is full of cubs. A coalition of 3-4 young males moves into the area and start terrorizing the the pride male.

It might be better to bust the coalition??? I don't know...just throwing it out.

Please comment Bwanamich & Fairgame.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I think there's more chance of pigs flying supersonic than there is of that working. The idea is very laudable but in reality has more holes in it than a seine net.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
I agree. Too bad really because it seems like a reasonable way to ensure long term sustainable hunting.

Packer has a study/model that suggests you can take all the 6 year old and older males with zero population impact. However if you go younger the lions die out pretty quickly.

If the 6+ year old lion is holding a pride with dependent young then when he's shot, it's almost certain that the cubs will be killed by the incoming male(s) and that will impact the population.

I do believe Packers model has some allowance for this and for the inadvertant taking of younger lions

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Bwanamich,

Don't you think that shooting a 6yo pride holder is a bad thing???

For me...#1 criteria...NOT a pride holder. #2 Older mature male (probably > 6 yr).

The above rule does not provide for not taking the pride male and may actually encourage it.

But...the more I study...there might be a time and a place...that it is good management to shoot a younger lion.

EG: You have a stable pride with good middle aged male in control. The pride is full of cubs. A coalition of 3-4 young males moves into the area and start terrorizing the the pride male.

It might be better to bust the coalition??? I don't know...just throwing it out.

Please comment Bwanamich & Fairgame.

Lane,

It certainly would make a lot of sense.

If only we could enforce the no shooting from pride policy whether cubs are 'of age' or not then I believe we are half way there. But if it is OK for Brittingham to do it then what sort of message is that?

Researchers rely on funding and they attract this resource by promoting emotive issues and hunting is such an obvious target.

I think it's a great idea.

Fraud and dishonest outfitters and corrupt game departments are a big part of the problem in some countries, but some of them do play by the rules.

Good rules are necessary in any system.

Lane,
Yes, taking a pride male where the pride has young, cubs or pregnant females is a big no no. IMO, there is some leeway if a pride is "ruled" by a coalition of 3 or more males (does occur) and 1 of the 3 males is harvested (The oldest probably), even if cubs or young are present.

Whatever regulation is in place, it has to be as "fool proof" as it can be. Drawing a proverbial "line in the sand" and enforcing it with practical control measures, even if it isn't perfect, is probably the best thing we can do today until more "research and science" is available. The scenarios Lane and Andrew present on young nomads might have some merit but how can it be controlled? Such scenarios are at the mercy of the individual hunters self control and ethics - and we know that we cannot trust that from what we are seeing today. How will the controlling/enforcing body know whether that was truly a young Nomad or a newly established 3 year old pride male? It will be uncontrollable. So the next best thing would be to start with what can be controlled and enforced. That is just my current opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Fairgame,
I totally disagree with you if you are saying that clients should be refunded their money if they are unsuccessful at killing a trophy lion! If they want a 100% success then they should go to SA while there are still lion in cages left.

Note I was referring to what happened in Tanzania. And whilst I applaud this as conservation measure it was the unfortunate hunters who ultimately paid the price for that decision?

If you have a good record of producing quality Lion (50% plus?) and up to date references to prove it then fair enough, but it is of my opinion that many sell what they have not got and to protect the hunter, the backbone of our industry, then why not downgrade the safari?

Where did that happen in Tanzania?

By the way, the new Tourist Hunting Regs of Tanzania state no shooting under 6 year old males. Penalties apply

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Lane,
Yes, taking a pride male where the pride has young, cubs or pregnant females is a big no no. IMO, there is some leeway if a pride is "ruled" by a coalition of 3 or more males (does occur) and 1 of the 3 males is harvested (The oldest probably), even if cubs or young are present.

Whatever regulation is in place, it has to be as "fool proof" as it can be. Drawing a proverbial "line in the sand" and enforcing it with practical control measures, even if it isn't perfect, is probably the best thing we can do today until more "research and science" is available. The scenarios Lane and Andrew present on young nomads might have some merit but how can it be controlled? Such scenarios are at the mercy of the individual hunters self control and ethics - and we know that we cannot trust that from what we are seeing today. How will the controlling/enforcing body know whether that was truly a young Nomad or a newly established 3 year old pride male? It will be uncontrollable. So the next best thing would be to start with what can be controlled and enforced. That is just my current opinion..

Bwana,

You make perrrrrrrrrrrrfect ( ) sense!

quote:

By the way, the new Tourist Hunting Regs of Tanzania state no shooting under 6 year old males. Penalties apply

I know Aaron will beat me the next time I see him ...but... !!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

By the way, the new Tourist Hunting Regs of Tanzania state no shooting under 6 year old males. Penalties apply

I know Aaron will beat me the next time I see him ...but... !!!

where can i get details on this? is this for the 2011 season?

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Fairgame,
I totally disagree with you if you are saying that clients should be refunded their money if they are unsuccessful at killing a trophy lion! If they want a 100% success then they should go to SA while there are still lion in cages left.

Note I was referring to what happened in Tanzania. And whilst I applaud this as conservation measure it was the unfortunate hunters who ultimately paid the price for that decision?

If you have a good record of producing quality Lion (50% plus?) and up to date references to prove it then fair enough, but it is of my opinion that many sell what they have not got and to protect the hunter, the backbone of our industry, then why not downgrade the safari?

Where did that happen in Tanzania?

By the way, the new Tourist Hunting Regs of Tanzania state no shooting under 6 year old males. Penalties apply

Bwanamich,

We have crossed lines here and I was referring to the 6 year plus policy.

What exactly are the penalties you speak of?

Have any good Lions come out of Tanzania this year?

Cheers

Andrew

John,
Like most things in Africa, everything is subject to interpretation

I suspect these are applicable from 2013 with the start of the new hunting term but will confirm.

GN243 of 2nd July 2010 released these Regs but to date - almost 3 months later, no one has officially seen a copy and the Gov printers office don't have a copy! After all, we ar ein the middle of Presidential election fever..........

I sent the following to Craig Packer. He was generous enough to respond so I don't think that he would mind my posting it here.

Mr. Packer,

I spend a fair amount of time discussing lion conservation with others online. I tend to focus on the conservation benefits of hunting leaving other issues for others to discuss.

Needless to say this often leads to some lively conversations.

From what I can gather of your writings you are somewhat ambivalent to hunting. That it can have some conservation benefit to Lions but that you probably wouldn’t partake yourself.

I am writing about the model you put together regarding hunting of 6+ year old lions. And hope that you can answer a couple of questions to make sure that I am “grok it”.

1) Would this model apply to all the southern lion populations?
2) Would the lion population maintain itself if you had no quotas but limited the take to only those over 6
3) There is some question about aging lions on the hoof through nose color. Has your experience shown that this indicator would work in all lion hunting areas?
4) Have you been able to test the model in real world circumstances?

I sincerely appreciate your taking the time to answer this. I think you are doing some good work and cite it in my arguments pretty routinely,

Sincerely,

John Hunt

And the following is his response



>1) Would this model apply to all the southern lion populations?
The original model was developed from long-term demographic data collected in the Serengeti and Ngorongoro. These lions grow up a bit more quickly than the southern African lions, so one of my students has modified the original model to see whether similar age-minimum restrictions would be valid elsewhere. In brief, the answer is "yes" but I can't recall at the moment what the recommended age minimum would be -- I believe it is still close to 6 yrs.

>2) Would the lion population maintain itself if you had no quotas but
>limited the take to only those over 6
Yes. But it is essential that the 6 yr minimum be strictly enforced.
Currently the only effective lion-hunting program is in Mozambique's Niassa Reserve, where all lion trophies are carefully inspected and future quotas are determined on the basis of compliance with the 6 yr minimum. This system has been resisted somewhat by the operators in the Reserve, but the MZ government has given the system their full support, so the program is very successful. In other parts of Africa, people often claim to follow a 6-yr minimum, but most of their trophies are 3-4-yr old lions. If they continue to exaggerate the ages of their lions they will continue to overharvest, so I am starting to wonder if stricter quotas might be better.
The Tanzanian Government is very reluctant to lower their quotas, so they prefer the idea of an age-minimum, but they have yet to establish any mechanism to enforce it.

>3) There is some question about aging lions on the hoof through nose
>color. Has your experience shown that this indicator would work in all
>lion hunting areas?
We published a "Hunter's guide to aging African lions" that provided additional criteria for estimating lion age in the field. The nose system is the most reliable, but it can be difficult to get a clear view of the lion's nose. However, in most countries, lions are shot at baits so there is plenty of opportunity to look at the nose. In areas where lions are not baited, features like mane size and body coloration can provide reasonable age-estimates.

>4) Have you been able to test the model in real world circumstances?
In the two attached papers, we analysed data from countries where the age-minimum was not enforced, and the lions were severely over-hunted. So far there are no good data showing that an age-minimum would prevent over-hunting, but the results from Niassa are so far very encouraging. The age-minimum is being enforced, and the lions in the hunting blocks seem to be doing well.

The most important challenge for the future of lion trophy hunting is pricing. Lions are a rare species -- much rarer than people had realized, and the impacts of sport hunting can be profoundly negative -- so host countries and hunting operators will have to raise more money from the harvest of fewer lions. This could either be achieved by raising fees thru the roof or by increasing the number of hunters while lowering expectations for a successful hunt. If 10 times as many clients go on safari to shoot half as many lions, operators are going to have to convince clients that it is worth paying a premium for the opportunity to shoot a wild lion. In other words, the hunting industry needs to sell adventure rather than dead lions! A guaranteed hunt is a canned hunt; a wild-lion hunt is a thrill!

Craig

John,

Great questions and thanks for posting! Way to take the bull by the horns!!!!!!!!!!

Brett

Excellent thread, with thoughtful posts. Thanks to all of you.

The problem is that at some point, any such system necessarily relies on the integrity of someone with a financial dog in the fight. That alone makes it a non-starter.

Pretty thought, though. REMEMBER: TIA.

Good hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
The younger Lions taken are for the most nomads who are looking to infiltrate a pride. I am not sure how the shooting of these males disrupts the social order? This only further protects the dominate pride males and their offspring?

John,
Why don't you email Craig the above questions and get his view?

I can´t distinguish a child from 5 to 7 and I see over 240 each week while working. I get to see their teeeth every time they come and it dependes on development of their bodies on that time. Hoe the hell are you going to know out in the wild between a 5 1/2 and 6 3/4. I think it is just not easy.
Just my 2 cents

Dwarf416,
I assume you are a dentist? Can you provide a fairly good age estimate between a 40 year old and a 60 year old human by examining their teeth? This would be the comparison to make

Besides, teeth is just one of several features one looks at.

Fairgame,

I was asking where in Tanzania did the system you imply was implemented result in no lions being taken?

1st infringement- $1k fine or 6 mths in the slammer
2nd Infringement - $4k or 1 yr in the slammer
3rd Infringement - $10k or 1 yrs in the slammer + cancellation of PH license.

These are for infringing any one of 5 minimum trophy regulations to include a younger than 6 year old lion!

Mind you, the fine system can be construed as a bribe guideline - the higher the fine you are facing the higher the Bribe

I know of at least 1 good lion taken in 2010

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Dwarf416,
I assume you are a dentist? Can you provide a fairly good age estimate between a 40 year old and a 60 year old human by examining their teeth? This would be the comparison to make

Besides, teeth is just one of several features one looks at.

Mich,

The short answer to this is NO. You cannot tell the difference between 40 yo and 60 yo human teeth.

HOWEVER: If you take known factors such as the pulpal size of six yo lions 2nd bicuspid I beleive and put that in the context of the life span of a lion (<10 yrs) then you can make conclusions. In the US aging whitetail deer by dentition wear is very common for example and with reasonable confidence you can be accurate within a year or so.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Fairgame,

I was asking where in Tanzania did the system you imply was implemented result in no lions being taken?

1st infringement- $1k fine or 6 mths in the slammer
2nd Infringement - $4k or 1 yr in the slammer
3rd Infringement - $10k or 1 yrs in the slammer + cancellation of PH license.

These are for infringing any one of 5 minimum trophy regulations to include a younger than 6 year old lion!

Mind you, the fine system can be construed as a bribe guideline - the higher the fine you are facing the higher the Bribe

I know of at least 1 good lion taken in 2010

Sir,

The idea is flawed and we as honest individuals can do the best we can.

Let us hope that proves to be enough.

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

By the way, the new Tourist Hunting Regs of Tanzania state no shooting under 6 year old males. Penalties apply

I know Aaron will beat me the next time I see him ...but... !!!

Lane - Unfortunately I just don't have the energy for this again at the moment! Been guiding, home for a day, and leave again tomorrow for 8 weeks of straight guiding/hunting! Although everyone knows my position on this already. Properly and exactly aging a lion on the "paw", IMPOSSIBLE!!

quote:

The idea is flawed and we as honest individuals can do the best we can.

Let us hope that proves to be enough.

Andrew

Andrew,

You hit the nail on the head sir. Unfortunately...not the head you were aiming at.

While yourself, Aaron, BwanaMich, Nigel and many many others are Honest Individuals...Y'all are a shrinking minority in the year 2010. I wish it weren't so but I am afraid it is.

Therefore...the rules must be set to govern the dishonest individuals. Believe me...I wish this were not the case.