Good morning, I am a newby here and have a question. I have been to Africa eleven times mainly to explore, study tribal people, mountain climb, hike etc, and I have been fortunate to be able to hunt a few times.

I have always dreamed of the old Ivory hunting days and have traded in ivory here in the states and well as in Africa (another story). Anyway I have been following the Ivory market and large, complete tusks are bringing a premium. A large 75ea pound pair has sold for over $75,000.00 in Fort Worth recently and there were people offering more but the deal was done. Also (I heard) pair of 8 foot tusks sold at auction for $125K.

My question, could someone hunt elephant in these down times, pay the PH, fees and Licenses and be able to sell the ivory at a profit to pay for the hunt? As anyone put this to paper to see if it would cash flow? I assume it wont or all of us hunters would be in Africa right now

Anyway looking forward to your opinion and thanks for the great forum,,

Jason Miller

Great idea- but I cant see making any money$$$$.

Elephants are a CITES species and I'm not sure that with Fish and Wildlife regs here in the States it is even legal to sell sport hunted ivory. I've been researching this type of thing since they just confiscated items from my recent trophy shipment because of an error made by the Zambian authorities in the issuing of their CITES permit for my hippo.

" The Service is also restricting some uses of trophies after they are imported. The Service feels that trophies should only be put in personal trophy rooms for personal use. They can not be sold. The Service has added meaning to the fact that they cannot be sold. “ [A] transfer, donation, or exchange, may be only for noncommercial purposes…. thus, we propose to add this new section that conditions the import and subsequent use of CITES wildlife or plant specimens. The import and subsequent use of Appendix I specimens and certain Appendix II specimens, including a transfer, donation, or exchange, may be only for noncommercial purposes. Such imports are conditioned by the regulation that the specimen and all its parts, products, and derivatives may not be imported and subsequently used for any commercial purpose. The importer will not be allowed to use or transfer the specimen for commercial purposes once in the United States. Any financial benefit of gain would include, but not be limited to, the donation of these types of specimens, including sport-hunted trophies, where the owner claims a tax deduction or benefit on his or her local, State, or Federal tax return.” The Service gives an example: “One commenter specifically requested that the sale of trophies by estates or trusts be allowed. Although we do not consider transfer to an heir a change in the use of a specimen, the sale or donation of a specimen that results in some form of financial benefit or gain would be considered a commercial activity and not allowed.” "

http://www.conservationforce.o...tantruleschange.html

Jason,

I'm guessing but if you sold the ivory to a buyer in Europe or Asia you could circumvent the US,F&W BS. I have no idea what would be involved in this endevour but it would seem to me that if you could at least legally break even someone would be doing it. If you find someone willing to pay for my safari I'd be more than willing to trade them my ivory for the hunt as long as all was legal.

Mark

With very few exceptions, private trade in ivory is illegal and with the exception of the occasional auction sanctioned by CITES, such as the recent auctions, all commercial trade in ivory is highly illegal............. and it's been that way for about 20 years.

Ian Nyschens and I (Ganyana Senior) held the last two professioal Ivory Hunters Licenses in the Federation (Rhodesia- Nyasaland), giving us free reign over all of currnet Zimbabwe and Zambia as well as much of Mocambique - which was very under patroled. -Ivory was freely saleable and fetched (relatively) as good a price as it does today. 1957 was my last season. Made 4 times as much in two months crocodile catching for an American Zoo than I did hunting Elephant! (oh yes, quite a few crocodile skins ended up with an indian trader over and above the officil live catches

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
With very few exceptions, private trade in ivory is illegal and with the exception of the occasional auction sanctioned by CITES, such as the recent auctions, all commercial trade in ivory is highly illegal............. and it's been that way for about 20 years.

Wow excuse my ignorance in the law but I have purchased tusks from hunters and sold them on ebay, and other websites for the last ten years or so. There are beautiful tusks on ebay at the present time. Maybe they are considered "pre ban"? The 55 pounder I sold about 8 years ago was shot and brought to the states in the 1950's from a missionary in Tanzania.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...IT&item=300280709002

Thanks again for the input, guess I will scratch ivory hunter off my career list :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Ian Nyschens and I (Ganyana Senior) held the last two professioal Ivory Hunters Licenses in the Federation (Rhodesia- Nyasaland), giving us free reign over all of currnet Zimbabwe and Zambia as well as much of Mocambique - which was very under patroled. -Ivory was freely saleable and fetched (relatively) as good a price as it does today. 1957 was my last season. Made 4 times as much in two months crocodile catching for an American Zoo than I did hunting Elephant! (oh yes, quite a few crocodile skins ended up with an indian trader over and above the officil live catches

Ganyana,

You sir, are someone I would love to meet! I would probably wear you out with questions about the good old days! Thanks for sharing your wisdom !!

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Ian Nyschens and I (Ganyana Senior) held the last two professioal Ivory Hunters Licenses in the Federation (Rhodesia- Nyasaland), giving us free reign over all of currnet Zimbabwe and Zambia as well as much of Mocambique - which was very under patroled. -Ivory was freely saleable and fetched (relatively) as good a price as it does today. 1957 was my last season. Made 4 times as much in two months crocodile catching for an American Zoo than I did hunting Elephant! (oh yes, quite a few crocodile skins ended up with an indian trader over and above the officil live catches

Ian's book "Months of the Sun" rates as one of the best books I have read on African hunting and I've read a few.

I would be very interested to know if you Sir,(Ganyana Snr) ever put pen to paper about your experiences.

That would be a book(s) I am sure we would all love to read.

Its one thing to trade old Ivory tusks, its another to try with fresh Ivory. Its like back in the 1970's for some reason Coyotoe pelts were fetching a fair dollar. And for a couple of wet winters I shot them for pelts out in MT and WY. And even at the historic high prices for prime pelts, it was hard wet cold work, but it did finance some of my schooling. Then the bottom fell out and now I guess you can't give them away. Its a nice thought to be able to chuck it and be a professional Ivory hunter, very few Ivory hunters in the by gone days made any kind of money most died broke or in unknown places. Bell is the exception, did all his hunting before WW-I when prices for Ivory was high, made Billiard balls from them, and did just one trip after and that was it, the only reason we know of it, is because he wrote of it and was able to say alive while doing it. He had enough business sense to have something to show for it, while dam near ever one else didn't. Nice though thou you have to admit, Elephants have enough to contend with, piling that one on too, would not be good. Its Africa's elephants they they have the right to do what they want, shoot them or Ivory or shoot a few a year as throphy's. My guess there is really more money in guiding sportsman paying trophy fee's and selling or giving the meat to the locals. Just because a few odd tusk go for six figuires dose not make a market. All you have to do is look at what happened with oil of late. Boom and Bust.

Shikaar,

E-bay have gotten into trouble a few times over the sale of ivory in recent years and although I don't know if it's still there, they did used to have a piece in the sellers guidlines saying they have to confirm in the ad that the ivory is pre ban etc etc. If I remember correctly, this was put there as a result of a threatened court case.

FWIW, sellers/traders/smugglers of illegal ivory or indeed other CITES listed products can face very severe penalties indeed. - If you do a search here, you'll find a thread on illegal Leopard products that had severe (although IMO not severe enough) consequences. - This event involved crossing international borders, but basically, it's the same thing.

Welcome to the forum BTW.

From Ebay link Tusks

Direct text copy.

Up for auction is a set of pre ban ivory elephant tusks. They were given as a gift to my family. The outer edge of each tusk measures over 60" from the decorative bases. The circumference is 15.5". The tusks with the bases are 135 lbs. each. The paperwork I received with the tusks describe the tusks to be 67 and 70 lbs. each (tusks alone) for a combined weight of 270 lbs. with bases or 137 lbs. tusks alone.

As shown in the pictures, one of the tusks have 3 small cracks. The tusks have never been polished or reshaped or bleached and are still in there near-perfect original condition.

Included in the auction are the stands/bases which are cement contained in copper on all 6 sides. They have been painted but can be refinished to expose the copper if desired. I also have the hunter photo's along with the guide and Zambia tribes people cleaning the tusks after the elephant was harvested in Sept 1970.

As of January 1st, 2009, eBay will no longer allow the selling of ivory, so this might be your last chance to own such a magnificent pair! There is no reserve on the auction, and a low starting price has been set. These are definitely priced to sell!

Shipping: Due to legality, we can only ship the tusks to the continental united states. There is a flat rate shipping cost of $600, which includes individual packaging/boxing, and shipment via UPS for 2 items. Insurance is optional, but is recommended, and is based on the final value price.

We are not responsible for losses/damage of merchandise if insurance isn't purchased. Items are sold as is, and we encourage you to ask any questions. Thank you again and good luck!

As the text says "As of January 1st, 2009, eBay will no longer allow the selling of ivory" so I suppose even you could have done it it will soon be over.

quote:

Its a nice thought to be able to chuck it and be a professional Ivory hunter, very few Ivory hunters in the by gone days made any kind of money most died broke or in unknown places.

I know of a few families that own huge amount of land all acquired with ivory money their grandsons has al that weatlh now.

my point is not evrybody writes books about it

My Godfather was Walter Bell. Besides leaving me with a small farm and cottage in Scotland and teaching me alot about life- he made several million Pounds (when there were five American Dollars to the pound) out of Ivory hunting. Those days ended with the great depression and the (almost simultanious) discovery of suitable plastics for snooker balls, piano keys etc.

Put at todays prices, 1923 Ivory (the year I was Born) was worth US$109/lb for cow ivory.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
he made several million Pounds (when there were five American Dollars to the pound) out of Ivory hunting.

Hey my buddy, how are you! I've been meaning to write for so long, but you know how things are eh? Here's hoping you and your family have a fantastic Christmas.

Your new best friend, David Hulme