I've viewed Woodloeigh soft point with a jaundiced eye after 400 (410) grain soft point acted like a Nosler Ballistic Tip on a shot into the ribs of a smallish bison a few years back. These were in some Federal ammo that somoene gave me about seven years ago. The ammo was likely made back around 1990.

I know, n of 1, too small of a sample etc. etc.

Shooting is psychological, and doubt is corrosive.

Soooo, how are the medium (416, 404) and large (458, 470, 505) bore Woodleigh soft points holding up and holding together these days?

Many thanks for your replies.

I'll ask about the long for caliber Woodleighs at the end of this season.

LD

Have always found the woodleigh softs to be a little on the "soft" side for buff. Have used them very happliy on eland and smaller, but for the last 5 years have used Stuart softs in 286grn for anything that needed a slow expanding soft ( lion, buff, Giraffe etc)

I also found that the 570 grain softs (500 NE) that were recovered from Cape Buffalo over expanded a bit too much. Have been considering switching over to their protected point softs.

i found that in the 470 the 500 gr woodleighs were to soft. they mushroomed out to quickly to get good penetration on buff, thus I went to either a frames or barnes x

They are still soft however I have never seen one fragment like a BT. The Protected point will perform better but they still open up and make a large mushroom. IMO woodleigh bullets are meant to be driven at lower velocity...but given that they offer heavy for caliber bullets I believe they are still a good option. I consider them a good bullet in the right application.

I've used the .450 480 gr RNSP Weldcore on 3 water buff bulls, a scrub bull and they seemed to work OK. Any recovered bullets were nice mushrooms.

The 286 gr Protected Point I have used on 14 water buffalo, a scrub bull, several horses and a donkey and they seemed to also work Ok with a big more fragmentation but still good weight retention when recovered.

.375 300 gr RNSP Weldcores on a cape buffalo, perfect mushroom. Plus lots of pigs where they were deadly.

I know you only asked about 400 and above, but hey this is the internet.

***

lawndart

I note you mention only one bullet in your bison story. So did it kill the beast or not? If it killed, what's all the worrying about?

Now this is interesting! I thought that the Woodleighs were the standard by which others were judged. I started practicing with my Hornadys because of the bad press that the softs were getting. Should I relegate the Woodleigh softs to the same fate? Put it another way, what softs should one use for Buffalo in the 416, 450 calibers?
Peter

The 500 grain Woodleigh softs I have used in my .458 Lott have worked fine for me on cape buffalo, but my shots with these bullets have been broadside or frontal heart shots only and have not had to break heavy bones.

The one I recovered was well mushroomed and had shed over 100 grains of weight, but it held together and penetrated deeply on a frontal heart shot.

I have a picture of that bullet somewhere and will post it if I can find it.

Still, I have decided that I would prefer a harder bullet, in case I ever need to penetrate heavy bones.

Use swift A-Frames on the big stuff and never look back.

quote:

Use swift A-Frames on the big stuff and never look back.

Thanks Will, and many thanks everybody who shared their experiences here.

I have considered loading the Woodleigh softs commercially, but will restrict their use to underpowered cartridges that won't be used on buffalo, elephant and public servants (thick skulls being the unifying feature).

LD

For serious work it will be A-Frame and North Fork bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:

For serious work it will be A-Frame and North Fork bullets.

Glad you added that, LD. I agree. There is no better soft for cape buffalo or bison than a North Fork.

You may have some problems with regulation in double rifles with NFs or Swifts. Woodleighs seldom cause such problems in doubles.

465H&H

LD,

For what it's worth I had no problem with .470 WL softs at about 2120 on buff. I believe they are made for thak velocity range. They may be too soft if driven faster.

Interestingly I had a .416 Swift A-frame "fail" on a buff broad side shoulder shot. The bullet disintegrated, part of the jacket and one petal were found on the off shoulder after the bullet broke the on-side shoulder punched a huge hole in the heart. The buff, by the way, stumbled forward about ten yards and dropped. Is that bullet failure?

I guess I would just point out that there is probablly no soft that won't go to peices on buff shoulder bone (let alone ele).

Brett

Here's the photo I mentioned.

This bullet was recovered by a tracker from the guts of a cape buffalo. I would estimate penetration at between three and four feet.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
I've viewed Woodloeigh soft point with a jaundiced eye after 400 (410) grain soft point acted like a Nosler Ballistic Tip on a shot into the ribs of a smallish bison a few years back. These were in some Federal ammo that somoene gave me about seven years ago. The ammo was likely made back around 1990. ....

Back in 2001 on this thread Woodleigh 450gr .416" I had posted this:

======================
New in 2001:
416 Rigby SN and 404 Jeffery SN.
Feature a new high performance jacket to withstand higher impact velocities than the previous version. Expansion is still reliable at low velocities.
======================


I can't find it right now but the 2001 Woodleigh catalog mentioned that the new .416" 410 gr bullet had a thicker jacket. They called the old version the MkI and the new version the MkII.

Here's what I posted back in 2004 on the NitroExpress.com forums in the Changes in Woodleigh bullets? thread:

==============================


Comparison of MK1 (Cat. 37 on the left) and new MKII (Cat. 37A on the right) jacket thickness of 416 Rigby 410gr SN.


416 Rigby 410gr MKII (Cat. 37A) projectile recovered from buffalo. Retained weight 97% when fired at 2300 fps.
==============================

-Bob F.

I have had nothing but good luck with the 410 gr woodleigh bullet in .416.I must have all the new version.I have had sone .92 caliber mushrooms with that bullet.I have friends who back up guiding in Alaska and they have finished plenty of bears woth it.They drove some from end to end of some hudge grizzleys .I like it better than the old hornady 400 gr .416 bullets.One of my friends switched from the 400 br barnes x bullet after he had to shoot a 10 foot charging griz three times sand it had already taken 3 bullets from a 358 norma mag.He switched to the 410 gr woodleigh bullets I gave him and never had to shoot one over once again.

FWIW, I use the SP for cats and the PSP for Buff in my .500 Jeffery and they perform brilliantly. - I also sometimes use the SP for close range coup de gras shots. Here's a couple of them:

I love the 410 gr woodleigh bullets in my 416 rem mag.I bought about 5000 of them once on two deals .They were factory loaded in 416 weatherby loads and I de loaded them and I used the brass in my 338-378 and the powder in my 338 win mag.I have had very good luck with these bullets.I have never had one come apart just good mushrooms.I had a friend who is a guide in Alaska switch to them after he shot a charging 10 ft griz with three 416 barmes 4000 gr x bullets.The bear had already taken 3 shots from a 358 norma mag .A charging bear is hard to stop any way.They are dead on their feet about 45 seconds after you shoot them running.And they can cover alot of ground in 45 seconds and bite you to pieces.He has had alot more bears drop at the shot with the 416 woodleigh bullets than he did the x bullets.I have had nothing but good luck with the woodleighs.I have had mushrooms up to .92 caliber.I get 2400 fps out of my 24" barrel Winchester in the 416.They are more accurate than you think also.They went further than any sofyt nosed bullet that contained lead that any other bullet when we shot them in wax or wet newspaper.I really like these bullets.I love blasting stuff with them.I have not tried the Nosler bullet but I liked them in my 338-378.The 410 gr woodleigh is my favorite bullet in my 416 rem mag followed by the 350 gr swift bullets .

North Fork perfection. The base is solid copper and the nose is bonded lead, it is just like a Jack Carter Trophy Bonded Bear Claw with grooved shank.

There is no way a mere cape buffalo shoulder can shatter this bullet, with a bonded lead mushroom riding "point" on the solid copper base.

Groovy.
(Of course the Woodleighs are O.K. for double rifle velocities and antique thin barrels.)

North Forks will handle any velocity of modern big bores. This is a .423/380-grain that had MV of +2500 fps from a .404 Jeffery. It broke the offside shoulder (humerus and scapula) of a bison as heavy as a cape buffalo. One shot, one kill. 95% weight retention.

These North Fork softs open up explosively fast at any MV practical, and carry the full solid shank on through. Ought to be the perfect lion or leopard bullet too, in whatever caliber.









There is a typo in the labeling from the North Fork web site. The bullet above is pictured below as pre-expanded, should say "423-380" not 280 grains, 380 grains.

RIP,

Good (possible best) design no doubt. Shatter, probably not but if it tumbled I would immagine it could still bend as some solids will.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
RIP,

Good (possible best) design no doubt. Shatter, probably not but if it tumbled I would immagine it could still bend as some solids will.

Brett

But after it has expanded all the way to the solid shank, it is so short that it would be about impossible to bend, unlike the long solids that get bent into a banana shape.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
Interestingly I had a .416 Swift A-frame "fail" on a buff broad side shoulder shot. The bullet disintegrated, part of the jacket and one petal were found on the off shoulder after the bullet broke the on-side shoulder punched a huge hole in the heart. The buff, by the way, stumbled forward about ten yards and dropped. Is that bullet failure?

Using that example above, and the internet methodology that a sample of one instance is statistically accepatable, the above example would be enough for internet tyre kickers to conclude Swift A-frames are also inadequate.


Ron,

I note the bullet pictures you post are all from the Northfork website. Don't you think real examples from your own experience would be actually more useful for this discussion. Not the best photos in existence that advertisers of Northfork could find???

John,

Actually I think both bullets are perfectly adequate (IMHO, as an "internet tyre kicker" ).

Kind regards;
Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
John,

Actually I think both bullets are perfectly adequate (IMHO, as an "internet tyre kicker" ).

Kind regards;
Brett

Brett

You and I are in complete agreement. I just used your example of a bullet construction 'malfunction' which still killed pretty well to me. Hope you don't mind.

"Internet tyre kicker" - I don't think so.

That comment was for persons who read of a single bullet failure and immediately start questioning the brand altogether. The original poster on this thread even implied a sample of one is pretty insignificant and that is why they were looking for actual experience.

BTW as someone pointed out Woodleigh did strengthen the jackets of a number of their bullets from their older runs.

Since then some people have claimed the bullets are now too hard on double rifle barrels! Impossible to please everyone, hey?

Whereas a Swift A-frame or Northfork could potentially stuff them permanently. Horses for courses.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
[QUOTE] From John H:

Ron,

I note the bullet pictures you post are all from the Northfork website. Don't you think real examples from your own experience would be actually more useful for this discussion. Not the best photos in existence that advertisers of Northfork could find???

Oh Really?
Then Mike Brady is using my pictures that I sent him, or he copied from here with my permission. I have posted these before. The first 4 photos were recovered and photographed by me.

The one photo with the pretty bullets 3 in a row is from the North Fork website.

www.northforkbullets.com

Please direct me to where Mike Brady is using my photos. If so, I am glad he saw fit to do so. I cannot find my pictures on his website. I think you went off half-cocked there, John.

Mine are not pretty ones from test media, but have busted through hide, ribs, lungs, disconnected heart from the plumbing, and smashed the offside shouder breaking both the ball and socket, in one lucky shot from 80 yards.

Your attempt to disparage me and North Fork bullets has failed miserably.

Isn't this fun?

quote:

There is a typo in the labeling from the North Fork web site. The bullet above is pictured below (ie on a NF website) as pre-expanded, should say "423-380" not 280 grains, 380 grains

Why are you so defensive?

My comment is from your own narration, ie "... typo in the labelling from the North Fork web site. The bullet above is pictured below as pre-expanded .....".

If they are your own photos, sure, your own comments indicated otherwise. Got any photos of Woodleighs?

As for alledging:

quote:

Your attempt to disparage me and North Fork bullets has failed miserably.

I'm not in any bullet manufacturers employ nor get any benefit of any kind from one so why would I want to disparage "North Fork" bullets or any of their competitors?

I didn't even know North Fork were the subject of this thread?

Rhetorical questions only. Lets try to keep the thread on topic, constructive and informative.

John,
I should have spelled it out better for you. The typo-ed photo from the North Fork website does show an example of a pre-expanded bullet of the same caliber and weight as the one I photographed: .423 caliber and 380 grains

More of MY photos related to the above .423/380-gr North Fork SS.

North Fork entrance hole was bigger than caliber size, a phenomenon that has sparked discussion here before.

I can tell you that the bison sprayed a lot of blood and some of his lungs out of that hole in the 8 steps he took before dropping dead.




LD mentioned North Fork and I took my cue.

No, I do not shoot targets or game with Woodleighs, except with a 470 NE double, 500 grainer at 2100 to 2150 fps MV.

If I ever get any pretty pictures of Woodleighs, I'll let you know.

However, North Fork makes some fine "true-driving-banded" FP solid and Cup Point "Universal" bullets for the 470 NE, that shoot well in my double, so I may never have need for Woodleighs again. They are accurate plinkers though, those Woodleighs.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
More of MY photos related to the above .423/380-gr North Fork SS.

North Fork ..... entrance hole was bigger than caliber size, a phenomenon that has sparked discussion here before.

North Fork thread

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
RIP,

Good (possible best) design no doubt. Shatter, probably not but if it tumbled I would immagine it could still bend as some solids will.

Brett

But after it has expanded all the way to the solid shank, it is so short that it would be about impossible to bend, unlike the long solids that get bent into a banana shape.

That's the problem.It is too short to do much damage.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Here's the photo I mentioned.

This bullet was recovered by a tracker from the guts of a cape buffalo. I would estimate penetration at between three and four feet.

I have a recovered 550 grain Woodleigh fired from my 458 Lott into a buffalo that looks very similar to this picture. The big bull was running at around 125 yrds. The bullet entered on a quartering away shot just in front of the right ham, penetrated through the stomch, through the liver, the left lung, the left rib gage, the left shoulder blade, left shoulder muscle and was found bulging the skin under the hide. That had to be close to 4 feet of penetration. What more can one ask of a soft point? I would use them with out hesitation on any animal they were designed for.

465H&H

Never have had any issues with Woodleigh SN bullets in 535 or 570 gr. The PPSP is a bit tougher it seems. Muzzle velocity have been between 2400 and 2520 fps. Impact velocities probably between 100 and 300 fps slower, I would guess. The last one I recovered lost 35 gr and mushroomed to 1.375". The hole it left was much bigger than the one RIP has shown us. That was a pumped up water buffalo. It didn't have much heart left, but still made it 50 yards before piling up (no he wasn't charging as he was a chicken shit and given up the fight i.e running for his life)

Now you can all tell me what a trolling liar I am.

I found that the 410 gr woodleigh bullets kick harder than the short 400 gr barnes monolithic bullets do.I often thought it was the longer bearing surface.I habve shot some awesome groups with these woodleighs .I gave a bunch to friends who had 416 Rigby rifles they said the woodlieighs were the best they had ever shot on game .They shot moose and grizzleys with them.It seems this bullets is soft but holds together.I bet it would be awesome in the 416 weatherby too but that might be pushing it too fast.There is a magical expansion rate of bullets at 2400 fps.Above it they blow apart .Below it they make bigger mushrooms as the get more resistance .I read about it in Ponderos and Elmer Keiths books .It still seems true today of lead bullets.Maybe that is why that guys blew up too fast too close.

This is turning into a pretty good thread. I will print it out and post it in my big "bullet book" The sinusoidal ribs on the side of the North Forks are pretty interesting. They make for low pressure, and are very kind to double rifle barrels.

465 has a good point about the heavy for caliber numbers from Woodleigh. He has also dropped quite a few buffalo and elephant with Woodleighs.

My big concern is having that big beautiful mushroom slow down, or stop altogether if it encounters a large and dense piece of bone.

I'll have to save up some moola for a nice long cull hunt to see who is who, and what is what. A nice moose cull hunt sounds about right.

LD

PS I really enjoyed our visit the other day Walt. It is good to meet someone who has his priorities in order. Be safe, and leave a few for me.

We recovered four .411 400 gr. Woodleigh sp's from the chest cavity of my Buff. All had mushroomed to 80+ caliber and three weighed 399 gr. and one weighed 379, and it was a coup de grace from 3 feet. Out of my 24" barrelled 450-400 double, the velocity was just over 2100 fps. I doubt I will use anything else, not that there are many choices for old doubles. Lee.

The grooved North Fork soft point is not suitable for antique doubles. It has too much hard bearing surface of solid copper cross-section above the grooved shank, and the grooved shank itself is not as much a pressure reducer as the true-driving-band bullets.

These are safe in any double:

North Fork FP solid
North Fork Cup Point Universal

GSC FN solid
GSC HV soft

The Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP's certainly have their place in double rifles at about 2150 fps.

The Woodleigh FMJ RN solids are probably harder on a double rifle than any of the banded GSC or North Fork bullets. They do not stay on course as staight or penetrate as deeply as the North Fork FP or GSC FN either.

Ask 500grains if you don't believe me.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

These are safe in any double:

North Fork FP solid
North Fork Cup Point Universal

GSC FN solid
GSC HV soft

The Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP's certainly have their place in double rifles at about 2150 fps.

The Woodleigh FMJ RN solids are probably harder on a double rifle than any of the banded GSC or North Fork bullets. They do not stay on course as staight or penetrate as deeply as the North Fork FP or GSC FN either.

Ask 500grains if you don't believe me.

My opinion is that the above is completely correct.

Woodleigh softs seem to run into trouble when pushed above 2400 fps. Stories abound of Woodleighs expanding too fast/too much in the .375 H&H. But in the .500 NE I have found them to be fine:



Middle one recovered from elephant chest shot (just testing the bullet out) and right one recovered from cape buffalo frontal head shot. Both from .500 NE.

However, my favorite expanding bullet is the North Fork soft. www.northforkbullets.com

quote:

The Woodleigh FMJ RN solids are probably harder on a double rifle than any of the banded GSC or North Fork bullets. They do not stay on course as staight or penetrate as deeply as the North Fork FP or GSC FN either.

Ask 500grains if you don't believe me.

Rip!

With all due respect I suggest you reread 500 Grains article in African Hunter. Your statment is true representation of what he reported for soft tissue penetration but incorrect for elephant head penetration. He stated that the Woodleigh RNFMJ solid gave the most penetration on elephant heads.

Ask 500grains if you don't believe me!

465H&H

465,

If I recall the article in question , on average FN solids penetrated a little deeper than RN on elephant head shots, but FN solids penetrated a LOT deeper than RN solids on body shots. However, I think you are correct that it was a single Woodleigh RN solid that penetrated deepest on head shots. Whether that would be repeatable across a statistically significant sample is open to debate, and will likely remain open to debate unless I can generate some more ambition to dig more bullets out of dead elephants.

Right.
And I would feel fine about firing North Fork grooved softs in something as strong as a Merkel, Searcy, or other new double of modern steel and adequate barrel wall thickness.

Not so for the antique doubles of leaded steel and thin barrels.