I'm just day dreaming but.... For a lion and cull elephant hunt which one would you recommend? Keep in mind I'm some what worried about the recoil of the 416, I've never shot a big bore. I have shot a .338win which I own, a .340wby and a .350rm. I didn't find any of these to be uncomfortable. So what'd you think the three-seven-five or four-one-six?

It sounds to me that you are well prepared for the move to either caliber. Perhaps which of the two you propose will receive the most use should be considered.

I think my M77 338 WM kicks harder ("sharper"?) than the M70 375 H&H, have never shot a 416.

If cost is a factor, the 3-7-5 has some cheap plinkin' bullets, and ammo, in general, will cost less and be more available.

Obviously, the 4-1-6 has an advantage if you're chasing Jumbo (or he's chasing YOU )....

Regards, Bill

If you are worried about recoil.... go with the .375.

The .416 recoil is much sharper and more "evident"

Having complete confidence in your shot is much more important than shooting a bigger bullet.

My take is that anyone can shoot a .375 (especially if you shoot a .338 cuz I agree with Bill... a .375 is more pleasant than a .338) but a .416 is in an all together different class.... from a recoil perspective.

Nick,

I'm not sure either will used much. With my limited hunting budget I can only hope to hunt Africa 3 or maybe 4 more times. With that in mind heres the number of times I think I'd use a big bore.
1,I'd like to hunt lion one more time, I've taken one from a blind but would like to hunt them on foot at least once before I'm done.
2,I've read so much about elphant hunting I'd like to do it once, I think for me once would be enough. I'd even consider a cow hunt, its now so much about the trophy, but about having done it.
3,Eland.
4,Maybe, a buffalo hunt. Then again buffalo isn't that high on my wish list. Not to say I wouldn't do it, but theres other things I'd rather hunt. On the other hand a buffalo/plains game hunt would be more affordable and fit my budget better than the lion/elephant hunt. Doesn't it always come down to WANT vs what I can AFFORD?

[ 11-18-2003, 20:23: Message edited by: mark65x55 ]

Anyone that wants to can learn to shoot a 416 Rem or Rigby...Recoil from these calibers will not injure anyone, so all one has to do is overcome all they hype of recoil...Not so the bigger calibers!

Therefore, and elephant being on the ajenda I would definatly opt for the 416 over the 375...

As for myself I can't tell any difference in the two in properly stocked rifles...and if recoil more than one can tolerate then add a brake, learn to shoot it with the brake, take it off from time to time and before you know it you will not be using the brake at all....

With the exception of brain shots where both calibers are fully equal, I would not want to hunt elephant with a .375...Oh I know they work most of the time, but its that "most of the time" that bothers me. I'd do it, I'd do it with a 9.3x62, or a 30-06 but I prefer a 416 or larger on elephants...They are awsomely large and mean to the core at times, especially the cheap ones!

"They are awsomely large and mean to the core at times, especially the cheap ones!"

Well... this isn't totally relevant... but kind of, it is.

I was shopping for some art today, something to blow my hazard pay on, and came across some interesting African-elephant prints.

If you go to www.guysart.com and look at the elephant pictures, the ones that I think will help you make your decision are "Charging Elephant" (two pictures of the same beast, actually) and "Too Close." I think if you look at these prints, you'll decide on the .416 Remington Magnum... and solids.

Like Bert in "Tremors," I just hate feeling like I might not have enough firepower. It's an awful feeling when it happens.

Russ

Ray,

Are you serious? No, I'm not being sarcastic.

I can't tell the difference in recoil between an .308 and a .300 win mag. If I didn't know what I was shooting I couldn't tell from the recoil. So I've never considered myself particularly recoil sensitive.

BUT, the difference in recoil from a .375 to either if the .416s (Rigby and Rem) is quite evident to me. I would immediately know which I was shooting from the recoil. I can shoot my .416 just fine but I don't particularly like it... On the other hand I believe I'd rather shoot my .375 than anything. It's downright pleasant to shoot.

Maybe I just hit my thresh hold? Since I've never shot anything bigger than a .416 I can't say how one of the real big bores would feel to me.

Crosshairs,
Speaking for self, yes I am serious, I can't tell any difference between a 375 and a 416 but my rifles have custom stocks and my 416 sucks up recoil like a seve, its quite mild..but my threshhold stops with a 458 Lott and up...I can shoot them fine offhand and even get them sighted off the bench, but I dislike shooting them in the odd positions one sometimes has to shoot under in the bush and high grass on rare ocassions.....

Russel,

Yup, those pictures tell a good story. I think the artist was also clever in creating those images from a very low point of view - maybe 3-4 feet above the ground. It just makes these behemoths look even bigger and more menacing than they already are.

Every seller of DG rifles ought to have a few of these prints up behind the counter. It would make his job of explaining why " enough, most of the time" isn't really good enough.

get the 416, and load it DOWN with 300's at 2500... and move up from there.

after becoming brain damaged...no, wait... i meant acclimated to my 500 jeffery, neither have much recoil anymore.. I think that's due to the multiple concussions,....

in all honesty, i see exactly were ray is coming from, there is only ~20 lbs difference, i can get that much hot rodding my 500.

since a 375 is PROBABLY going to be lighter than a 416 (should be) the felt recoil will be alike.

if you are dreaming, dream of a rigby

jeffe

I have a .375 and .416 Rigby, the Rigby weighs at least 1.5 pounds more and to me has noticeably more recoil. I can shoot the .375 like I can a 7x57, shot several coyotes as well as 200-yard jackals. You do need to build up a tolerance to recoil, but I'll agree with the others your .338 kicks worse than a .375.

I'm just going to throw my two cents in here.... I have never shot a 375 or a 416 of any variation, although I am dying to get my hands on one before too long. I have a M77 338 WM that I shoot quite often. It varies with the load, and especially the powder (RE 22 is the worst), but that gun can be downright violent when it decides to buck. Shooting 250 grainers with RE 22 is the worst. But, that said, I feel that almost anyone can learn to overcome recoil shyness with practice and maybe a little fine tuning of shooting technique. I beleive that most people tend to compare recoil when shooting off of a bench. This is usually where most felt recoil is experienced. So, In your hypothetical case, I would try/borrow a 375 and if you feel you can handle it and become proficient, step up to a 416. maybe not a Weatherby, but try a Rigby or a Remington version. Good shooting,
Wyo

Mark65x55,

Too bad you don't live closer to me or I'd let you try my two Whitworths out -- one in .375 and one in .416 RM. Both rifles weigh a bit over 8-lbs and there is considerable difference between the .375 and .416 -- same rifle, same weight. Being as light as they are, the .375 even beats you up on the bench a bit. Actually I'll be moving to Florida at the first of the year so if you are ever out that way......

Whitworth

I own and shoot several Ruger's from 375 H&H to 458 Lott and shooting from the bench is never too much fun as it is a necessary evil to sight in your particular rifle/load/ combination. As stated above, you become acclimated to the recoil only if you become really convinced that you LIKE AND WANT to shoot that rifle in that particular caliber. Shooting off-hand really helps as it seems a bit milder while standing up. The 375 H&H is a pussycat compared to the 416 Rigby. All I did was add a bit of weight fore and aft to help soad up some of that kick. The 458 Lott is really a bitch on the bench but with a bit of weight to it, recoil really calms down a bit. All it takes is the desire to shoot and the willingness to punish yourself until you get used to it. Have fun.

Don't batter yourself off the bench use a standing rest (bonnet of landcruiser ute) and also use a past recoil sheild.

I think both the .416 & .375 are great rounds.

Maybe I'm not as recoil shy as I thought. Its been 6 or 7 years since I sold the 340 but I don't recall the recoil being that bad. I shot it a lot using handloaded 210gr Xs and a near max load of powder.

I took the .338win to the range the other day. I was shooting it and my 30-06. I'd shoot 3 out of the 06, 180gr X with a near max load of imr 4350, then I'd shoot 3 out of the .338win, Federal factory loads with 210gr partitions. I shot 15 rounds out of the 06 and 12 out of the .338, I could have shot a few more but run out of time. I didn't think the .338 was than bad Its a Browning A-bolt with a 3.5-10 leupold on it. I know its not that heavy, I weighed it but don't remember how much it was, I think its around 9 to 9.25 pounds.

I'm going to talk to the local smith and see if hes got a 375 and 416 I could shoot or maybe he knows someone who does.

Interesting challenge.

Folks with lots of experience with larger bores will have little difficulty until things are pretty much out of hand for the novice. I think Atkinson is in that boat. Until it gets just down right vicious, little is going to bother him.

After many years of avoiding larger bores, I acquired a lovely .338. Was very pleasantly surprized by how much it did not live up to my expectations of it.

Next was a .375 ... wonderful caliber. Don't notice the recoil at all if there is game under the cross hairs.

Finally got a real big bore ... .416 ... after shooting one with an acquaintance. It really was exciting and actually it really is even in comparison to the .470 NE.

From the relatively novice point of view ... .375 is pretty much easy if the rifle is of reasonable weight and stock design. Not significantly worse that the .338. The .416 is another matter. It will get your attention! Definitely a slam to the shoulder. But is dramatically more rifle than the .375 ... energy delivered is truly amazing! Very appropriate if the target may eat, trample, or gore you.

A couple of points:

1) It really does get better with some experience.

2) Hold on the to fore-end. You can't shoot these puppies like a sniper rifle with your off hand under the butt on the bench.

3) Shoot from a standing rest (does not require you to sit). Your body will much more easily absorb the recoil energy without turning it into pain and flinch.

4) It really does get better with some experience.

5) Do not expect to shoot the large bore rifle a lot in the first few range visits. Analyze your style, get used to it, and have fun.

6) Practice with the rifle as you expect to use it after discussing the expected shooting conditions with the PH your going to hunt with.

If you can afford it, owning both calibers is a great good fortune. The .375 really is like a pair of black shoes .... every guy NEEDS one. The .416 is like a Tux. There really are places you should not go without one. ;>

Duckear, thanks for the offer I'll send you an e-mail soon.

Mike, what a great post thanks.

If you already have a 338 a 375 doesn't offer as big of a step up as a 416 IMHO. If all I had was a 30-06 or something I would go for the 375.

It depends a lot more on the rifle than the round. Like Jeffe said, the 375 ought to be at least a pound lighter. A 300g at 2650 fps in a 9lb rifle, using about 80g of powder will send the rifle back about 50 ft/lb at 20 fps. 400g at 2400 in a 10lb rifle with 80g of powder will give about 56 ft/lb at 20 fps.
That 340W does about 40/18 with light bullets and 50/20 with heavies in a 9 lb rifle, which is right alongside the H&H.
A good pad on a well-fitted (to you) stock, and soem practice with good form will put either of these under control, I'm sure.
The bigger question to me would be, "which will I use when NOT in Africa?"
Since either will do you, I'd pick the one I'll enjoy at the range more, and will take hunting here in NA. If it's a toss-up, go bigger.
Either of these "medium bores" are within eccentric elk-caliber range, certainly good griz rounds.

I'll say it again, as it seems to have been missed

get the 416

load 300 grains at 2500...

work UP to full house loads, or down if the 375 like recoil is too much.

after all, it's easier to load a 416 DOWN to 375 recoil than viceversa
jeffe

Get the 416! For what's on your menu bigger is better. I love my 375 but wished for something bigger on my buf. Now I'm trying to decide which 416

Bwana-bes post about what will I use when not in Africa makes a lot of since to me and that spells .375 to me also...

If I only planned one trip to Africa then I would go with the 375, but if I was a frequent flyer to there and I am, I would go with the 416 REm...but the 416 with a 300 gr. bullet at 2500 to 2750 FPS looks darn good to Jeffe and its hard to argue his choice based on that...

Mstarling is right, my sinces are numbed to recoil, my hearing is shot to hell, my brain has been rattled until I'm bordering punchy, I have acute bursitas in both shoulders and neck, so I'm probably not qualified to comment on the subject but I don't like the 45 and 50 calibers particularly, because of recoil, but I can shoot them just fine. I hurt later.

As to the 375 and 416 question, it would depend mostly on which day you ask the question and on Wed. I would scream get a 9.3x62 but friday I would tell you nothing but a 505 is fit for big stuff. Catch me for a month after a charge and I'll onl advocate a 577 or 600 N.E. several hunts later I'm back to a mild kicking 416 or 404, even a 9.3 or .375...

After a lot of time in the bush, you come to realize it doesn't make a fat rats a$$ one way or the other, just give me a gun and lets go shoot something...

Now I have to start giving some thought as to what I will shoot on Safari next year, but rest assured it will be somewhere between a 7x57 to prove I can do, nope done that, so make it a 404, no shot to much with that one, and the 416, sold my 450-400 and shot a lot of stuff with that one to, so I'll use my new Searcy PH model in .470 with irons, I have used the .470 before, but not the PH model, so thats a go, but what bolt gun, hmmmm thats the big question..anyway I will change my mind 50 times between now and then, maybe a .270?????????

I call this the Tanzania flip flop...ya gotta love it, its the best part of hunting..You don't have to be right, you just need to be happy!

To be con't.