quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I'm beginning to think that high success rates are not really as high as some are being led to believe.

I have not seen anyone posting here that they consistently have shot big cats on their first try, and in fact it seems that that is an aberration, rather than the norm. In fact, it seems like there have been millions of dollars spent by the respondents of this thread on "unsuccessful" cat hunts, although most of you eventually did get them.

I have hope!


I will say that this is a good thing, as it should not be easy.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
...........
After spending the past 15 years chasing cats in at least 6 different countries, and having been successful on shooting 15 lion/leopard myself, plus being with 6-8 clients that have shot lion/leopard, I have managed to come to a few conclusions. Leopards are without a doubt, the most difficult overall. ....

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:


Everybody here says the same thing, and quite frankly everybody is right!

Priority #1 - Location, location, location
Priority #2 - Best time to go to that location, and it can even vary within the same country
Priority #3 - Experienced and successful cat hunter/ph
Priority #4 - Luck

Problem I often see with clients though is they are not always willing to go to the "Actual Best Places", either because they can't afford what is really the best, which I totally understand that, or someone else has told them that XYZ is the best, simply because that guy went there and got one! Buddies often recommend what they know from limited experience, not necessarily what might be the BEST! Quite frankly, some agents are guilty of that too. Not only do you want an experienced PH, but if booking a hunt with an agent, you want him to have diverse experience. Now this might sound biased, and I don't mean it that way, but in my opinion, that's why a GOOD booking agent is really the very best way to go! As an outfitter myself for a long-time now, of course I am gonna believe that my hunts that I offer, are the best. But a really experienced and un-biased agent is going to listen to what you really want, and make a recommendation based on your criteria, not just the ONE hunt he has to sell, in the one area that operates in, as is the case with specific outfitters. I'm not bashing outfitters in anyway, I am just stating what I believe to be true. For example, I have sold a hunt or two for Adam Clements in Masailand for buffalo over the last couple years, but really Mark is the guy to turn to for that. Although I don't want to lose a client, fact is, if a really big buffalo is the client's only goal. Booking a Masailand buffalo hunt with Mark, at the right time of year, is probably your very best bet for the biggest one possible. That's just the facts!

As LDK said as well, if getting the cat you want is REALLY the goal, you need to make that the priority, period! Too often guys want the cat, but they want other things too. Sometimes to get those "other things", the area then changes to NOT THE BEST CAT AREA, or timing is sacrificed, etc.

Plus, when considering getting one, are you considering just getting one to be the goal, or are you looking at getting a BIG ONE as the goal? Getting a big, full-maned lion, and getting just a decent lion are two different things. Often the difference is the location and the price! Not that both areas can't be equal in success percentages, but they are often not equal in quality of the cats available in the first place. Just getting a leopard, and getting a big leopard, is also two different things, and often the same theory applies. Just ask Fairgame, I'll bet he will agree with this. If I was going to Zambia and the goal was to get a leopard, period. He would tell you to come with him to the Luangwa, but if you want a bit less odds of success, but a shot at killing a much bigger leopard, he'll tell you to come with him to the Kafue.

If money was no object, and I wanted the BEST odds on a leopard hunt for the biggest leopard possible, I would book with Brittingham and go to Mt. Kitinbine (spelling), no question about it! If Lion was my goal, and money no object I would go to Lunga Luswishi in the Kafue, and a close second might be the Rungwa or Lukwati game reserves in Tanzania. But unfortunately not all of us have the un-limited budget to go wherever we want, so that too has to be factored in.

After spending the past 15 years chasing cats in at least 6 different countries, and having been successful on shooting 15 lion/leopard myself, plus being with 6-8 clients that have shot lion/leopard, I have managed to come to a few conclusions. Leopards are without a doubt, the most difficult overall. Not that they are any smarter than lions, but they are simply more secretive. Lions are bold, even though they are cautious. They often just don't exhibit the same shyness as a leopard. Not always but more as a generalization. I personally have not had near the success on leopard, as I have with lion, even though I was hunting some very good places. But some of that lack of success has been that when I do lion/leopard hunts, I am always more focused on lion. Several times I have passed sitting on big tom leopards, simply because we had lion hitting other baits, and that's where I chose to go first.

Well, this is all just my opinion, and what the hell do I know anyway???

quote:

Originally posted by nube:
I wonder what the actual % of success is. From my studies in the last month I have been told 75% to near 100% success rates. This was from about half a dozen of some of the best known leopard outfits.
I really don't know what to think but I find it hard not to believe some of these top notch PH's when they say they are near 100%. Maybe I am a little gullable at times but for a guy who can not afford to keep going back for a leopard I really would appreciate some honesty so I don't get screwed over. The hard part of choosing a guy to go with is that there are so many outfitters that say they do so well on leopard. Too many choices. At times I feel like picking straws with the list of outfitters I have to go with. It is a hard desicion to figure out who will really give you the best chance.

quote:

Originally posted by nube:
I wonder what the actual % of success is. From my studies in the last month I have been told 75% to near 100% success rates. This was from about half a dozen of some of the best known leopard outfits.
I really don't know what to think but I find it hard not to believe some of these top notch PH's when they say they are near 100%. Maybe I am a little gullable at times but for a guy who can not afford to keep going back for a leopard I really would appreciate some honesty so I don't get screwed over. The hard part of choosing a guy to go with is that there are so many outfitters that say they do so well on leopard. Too many choices. At times I feel like picking straws with the list of outfitters I have to go with. It is a hard desicion to figure out who will really give you the best chance.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Lightning - It can be true that more game = more cats, but that certainly does not have anything to due with likelihood of success. In fact, sometimes just the opposite!! Healthy leopards are killing machines, period! In areas where game densities are high, especially normal prey species that often aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, leopards kill at will. Meaning that the necessity of taking a bait, or even the chance they will find your bait is lessened. So more does not always mean better.

I have hunted leopard in places where the game densities are high, along with the cat populations. Leopards in these areas have always been harder to get on bait, and more importantly, KEEP on bait. The masses of prey species is often more than they can resist. They are simply too good at killing to be dependent on it.

Yes, the Save has good leopard populations. But numerous other places would be a better choice, if success was priority.

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
Interesting thread with everyone saying the two top ingrediants are location and PH. Put, other than listing the SAVE and Luangwa, no one has said what those areas are and who the corresponding PH's are. That is the missing information.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Like I said in one of my earlier posts, there's a difference between successful hunts, and the best places to hunt for BIG cats.

To me specifically, especially as it pertains to Leopards, the size of the leopard, is the trophy of the leopard. Lions, the size/quality of the mane is the trophy. They might be officially judged by skull size, but who really gives a damn about that?

So, I'll give you my picks for the BEST PLACES to go for a BIG LEOPARD & FULL MANED LION. I don't sell hunts into all of them either, just so everyone knows my opinions are not based on any financial bias.

Leopard:

#1: Mt Kitinbine - Tanzania
#2: Lowveld SA/Zim (One particular operator is SA) but many others too.
#3: Kafue - Zambia (Luangwa higher % on smaller cats)
#4: Western Tanzania

If success was of most concern over size: Zambia - Luangwa, Tanzania - Selous, Mozambique - Niassa, and not necessarily in that order.


Lion:

#1: Kafue - Zambia
#2: Rungwa/Lukwati/Moyowosi - Tanzania (Masailand does produce big lion, but not near as consistently as the Kafue or Rungwa/Lukwati)
#3: Save - Zimbabwe (southern half)
#4: Luangwa - Zambia
Other good areas include Niassa, Masailand, not in any order. These areas are good, Masailand in particular can produce a huge lion, but they are not as consistent on big maned lions, period!

HANDS DOWN, best place to shoot both a BIG LEOPARD & BIG MANED LION on the same 24 - day hunt: Zambia's Kafue!!! The Kafue produced the largest Leopard EVER killed in Zambia in 2004/2005, plus it consistently produces incredibly big maned lions, and large leopards year after year. Yes, this is one place that the operator can claim to have BIG species of both in the same place.

Here is Zambia's ALL-TIME #1 Leopard. Shot in the Kafue. Below are 2 lions from 2009, shot from the EXACT SAME HUNTING CONCESSION.








A few other things in my opinion that I differ on with some of the previous post. PLEASE NOTE, this is just my opinion, its not meant to say others are in-correct in their own.

1. Full Moon/Dark of Moon - Blah, Blah, Blah. Makes not a rats ass bit of difference. Cats are the ultimate predator, they hunt just as good in either situation. Fact is I have seen better success on full moon, as the prey species can actually see better in the full moon than in the pitch dark, thus making it easier to avoid danger, thus making the hunting for the cat a bit more difficult. Every PH that I consider to REALLY be a good cat hunter have all told me the same thing- NEVER PAID IT ANY ATTENTION!

This is also especially true in MORE wild, remote areas where the hunting pressure is much, much less! First off, places like TZ & ZA do not even allow night hunting. Part of the reason night hunting is so prevalent in places like the Save Valley for example is because its often necessary to be successful, period! The Save is roughly 880,000 acres, now I am not sure of the total quota on the entire conservancy but my guess is 25-30 leopard per year, maybe more. Now, take places in TZ & ZA again, where often the hunting blocks are 2-3 times that size and they only have 3-5 leopard on quota per year, big difference. In these areas the HUNTING pressure ALL-AROUND is so much less that although night hunting is not legal, it is not even necessary, as the cats are simply not as wary. If the cat is coming at 5pm, what the heck does it matter what the moon is??

As example, I have a good friend/client who is from Mexico. He was hunting the Save (Humani) in 2008 for Leopard at the very same time I was hunting lion (Senuko). He was in the very end successful on a mid-sized female, but only after MANY all-nighters in the blind, etc. So, in June 2009 I took him to the Kafue with me. I hunted lion, he hunted Leopard. On day 4 he shot a very big leopard, I would guess at 170lbs. On the 3rd evening we sat in the blind, the leopard showed, but it was too dark to film. So we came back at 5am the next morning, and by 6:30am the leopard was dead. These examples have for the most part been my very same experiences with leopard hunting in Zim/SA versus wild remote places in ZA & TZ. In Zimbabwe I have shot 4 lions & 2 leopards, all but one has been after dark. ALL the other cats I have shot, have been in the day light. Either early morning or late evening.

2. Long grass is harder for cats to hunt in - Just the opposite is true! Cats rely on surprise and stealth, the long grass conceals them and allows for a much better opportunity of surprise. Notice two things, prey always gathers in the OPEN, freshly burned areas, because NOW they can SEE everything that might try to approach. Yes they are after the new green grass too, but they like the fact that now the cats can't be waiting 10 feet away near as easily. Any good PH will only burn so much grass if he is still planning to cat hunt, he knows that if there is NO grass for the cats, likely they will move to a place where there is some.

3. Lions are Harder to get than Leopard - Well, not in my opinion. First, leopards simply are the ULTIMATE killer. Even big males are fast, quick, and agile. If an area has even decent prey populations, leopards can kill at will. Thus, enticing them to bait, sometimes can be more difficult. Not that enticing them is the problem, but if they are already feeding on a kill, that means likely they are not looking for food, thus not finding your bait may not happen. They also are just more wary than lions, I don't believe they are any smarter, just a bit more cautious.

Lions are Bold, and will even trump their noses at approaching danger, as often times they just don't care. I've seen them sit at the bait, and simply await your arrival, even though they undoubtedly hear or see your approach. I've never seen leopards do this. Plus, big males that are lone males, have a bit tougher time hunting for themselves. Not that they can't of course, but sometimes it can be more difficult for them, so traveling more allows them more opportunity to find your bait. If they do, likely they ain't leaving!! Bottom line, I think if all things are equal, lion hunting has a better chance of success, overall.

Just more of my useless opinions!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I believe he books for Richard Bell-Cross' Pro Hunt Zambia.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
The original question was "How EASY is it to get a cat". Fact is, its never easy. But, its impossible if you never go!!! So if you want one, start making a plan, good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
The original question was "How EASY is it to get a cat". Fact is, its never easy. But, its impossible if you never go!!! So if you want one, start making a plan, good luck!

If you want easy then hunt Leopard with dogs. Have not figured out why we can't yet do it with Lion?

quote:

Originally posted by Lightning:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
The original question was "How EASY is it to get a cat". Fact is, its never easy. But, its impossible if you never go!!! So if you want one, start making a plan, good luck!

If you want easy then hunt Leopard with dogs. Have not figured out why we can't yet do it with Lion?

The dogs don't know the difference between male and female.

Hunting leopard the dogs aren't turned loose on a female track. Leopard often travel alone. Lions don't.

Once the dogs have something cornered or at bay, it is almost impossible to pull them off. It would get very ugly and dangerous if the dogs got on pride of lions.

quote:

Originally posted by Lightning:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
The original question was "How EASY is it to get a cat". Fact is, its never easy. But, its impossible if you never go!!! So if you want one, start making a plan, good luck!

If you want easy then hunt Leopard with dogs. Have not figured out why we can't yet do it with Lion?

The dogs don't know the difference between male and female.

Hunting leopard the dogs aren't turned loose on a female track. Leopard often travel alone. Lions don't.

Once the dogs have something cornered or at bay, it is almost impossible to pull them off. It would get very ugly and dangerous if the dogs got on pride of lions.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Lightning:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
The original question was "How EASY is it to get a cat". Fact is, its never easy. But, its impossible if you never go!!! So if you want one, start making a plan, good luck!

If you want easy then hunt Leopard with dogs. Have not figured out why we can't yet do it with Lion?

The dogs don't know the difference between male and female.

Hunting leopard the dogs aren't turned loose on a female track. Leopard often travel alone. Lions don't.

Once the dogs have something cornered or at bay, it is almost impossible to pull them off. It would get very ugly and dangerous if the dogs got on pride of lions.

Lightning - More often than not, big male lions do travel alone. But it wouldn't matter, the dogs would still be toast!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Lightning:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
The original question was "How EASY is it to get a cat". Fact is, its never easy. But, its impossible if you never go!!! So if you want one, start making a plan, good luck!

If you want easy then hunt Leopard with dogs. Have not figured out why we can't yet do it with Lion?

The dogs don't know the difference between male and female.

Hunting leopard the dogs aren't turned loose on a female track. Leopard often travel alone. Lions don't.

Once the dogs have something cornered or at bay, it is almost impossible to pull them off. It would get very ugly and dangerous if the dogs got on pride of lions.

Lightning - More often than not, big male lions do travel alone. But it wouldn't matter, the dogs would still be toast!!!

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
As to the where/with who:

I had hunted Leopard the first time on a 15 day Buffalo and Plains game hunt with Mokore Safaris in the Chewore South concession of Zimbabwe. I was hunting with Hilton Nichols, who is a long time Zim PH, and while Leopard was not my initial goal here, we saw a lot of sign and spent 7 days working on spots.

The second time was a 18 day Lion hunt in Zambia's Luangwa valley with Muchinga Adventures, and I had Alister Norton as my PH. We got within 10 yards of lioness and cubs, but not a single male was seen, not even a track. My hunt broke Alister's perfect Lion record.

The latest hunt was 15 days primarily for Leopard in the Save conservancy with Mokore Safaris again. Early season, right phase of the moon, planned in advance 2 years to get a plan. Saw little sign and the only cat I saw was a female in the tree.

I worked with a good booking agent, and my research indicated these guys were all top notch.

quote:

Originally posted by Lightning:

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
Interesting thread with everyone saying the two top ingrediants are location and PH. Put, other than listing the SAVE and Luangwa, no one has said what those areas are and who the corresponding PH's are. That is the missing information.

For me..

If I chose:

1) Save - Zambezi Hunters (Johnathan or Theirry) on a traditional hunt or Barry Duckworth's outfit(if I wanted to hunt with dogs I would go with Barry since he works with Warrick Evans (my perference of dog handler).

2) Laungwa Valley - Athol Frylinck Do your research. Athol does a great job and manages area very well. Good camps too. Great outfit.

3) Niassa Reserve - Luwire Safaris - Derek Littleton. Primitive hunt - Lots of Leopard.

4) Tanzania - TGT or Adam Clements - Both have great areas. Timing on Adams place can make for a buffalo hunt that you usually only dream of.

Anybody (Safari company or Broker) that says they have the best areas for all species are full of it most of the time. My opinion is that TGT and probably Adam are the only two that can come close to that claim. Even then they will say the the average leopard in Tanz. and Northern Moz. tend to be slightly smaller.

If I was looking at lion also, I would drop Moz. and add the Kaufe region of Zambia.

Gavin Hume's outfit and others have produced some monster lion. The buffalo coming in and out of the park can be a problem in some of these areas. But some of these oufits are trying to take only a few lion a year. Another major point of research.

To each his own...

quote:

Originally posted by yellowstone:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
As to the where/with who:

I had hunted Leopard the first time on a 15 day Buffalo and Plains game hunt with Mokore Safaris in the Chewore South concession of Zimbabwe. I was hunting with Hilton Nichols, who is a long time Zim PH, and while Leopard was not my initial goal here, we saw a lot of sign and spent 7 days working on spots.

The second time was a 18 day Lion hunt in Zambia's Luangwa valley with Muchinga Adventures, and I had Alister Norton as my PH. We got within 10 yards of lioness and cubs, but not a single male was seen, not even a track. My hunt broke Alister's perfect Lion record.

The latest hunt was 15 days primarily for Leopard in the Save conservancy with Mokore Safaris again. Early season, right phase of the moon, planned in advance 2 years to get a plan. Saw little sign and the only cat I saw was a female in the tree.

I worked with a good booking agent, and my research indicated these guys were all top notch.

What time of year were you hunting in the Luangwa Valley, and did you cross tracks with leopard?