I am with Rich Elliot, it has beeen done a lot of times in the past.
Well, another penny about this.
On a Italian Hunting magazine, I read the experience of an Italian hunter. If I remember well the area was in Central or Equatorial Africa, where he delivered goods to the local mission, it was an ATV for the rainy season.
The missionary gave to him a military Mauser, some metal piercing cartridge of 8x57 MG42, and sent him to hunt elephants. It was enough.
It is not a thing to do normally, but it has already been done.

TSJ,

Thanks, but my hippo shooting days are over. I've got half a loaded box and half box of just the bullets. Only good use I can think of is shooting dik-dik's and I don't plan to do that unless someone needs a fullskin. I leave for Ethiopia this Saturday but my rifles and ammo are staying at home. I'm supposed to mount a new S&B scope on a company Mod. 70 .375 H&H and use that for what lttle shooting I might do.
I hope it's far enough forward so as to not give me another Weatherby Eybrow. Hang onto those 220 H. Solids. Shoot, they are now a collectors item!
Rich Elliott

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

As I have mentioned here on several occasions, I have been loading 308 Winchester ammo with 175 grain solids for a friend who has been using them on buffalo for years.

Ahhhh man?!?!? Saeed, you just blew my "need" for a .470 Mbogo!!!

I have hunted buff once. I used a .375 H&H. That seemed about right for the critter involved. I like the .30-06 but would prefer the "punch" of the .375.

I would not shoot one with a bow and arrow either, or blackpowder or shotgun slugs. They are a bit too tough for that.

quote:

Originally posted by Dungbeetle:

Chugach,

Respectfully, 'now hold on' and uncommon sense aside, me thinks not. But it's your call and it's your Safari, your bucks, yo $. It's also your ass. Bring your .06 and go get'em with that "well placed shot" that you speak of. Heh, heh. Yea. Well placed shot. I've seen Whitetails run for near a mile with that same shot. My bad.

Be sure and know what your PH is-a-packin. Bet it ain't an .06 nor will it be that venerable Buffalo killer - the "Hot .308 w/175 grain solids'. Saeed will load you a few, eh, Bro? Africa is calling.

Good luck and you win this discussion.

DB

DB: I would only take the 30-06 as my backup to a 45-70
If you have witnessed a whitetail travel over a mile with a vital hit produced any 30 caliber round you must be one lucky guy.No whitetail with their lungs or heart shredded is going a mile be it done with a 223 or a 30-06.

I'm acquainted with a fella who claims dozens of buffalo to his credit using 7.62 NATO ball, from an FN FAL, from a helo, on culling operations...oh, never mind.

I've seen a few buff shot with 458win, 375H&h and 338win. In no case did it appear that we were overgunned. No 30-06s for buff for me.

I love the ott6, hence my handle. However, it's my opinion that a person is foolish to take on an animal such as a Cape Buff with this caliber. I would rather have a perfect shot with my 416 on him than a perfect shot with my ott6.

Was this thread started just to have something to talk about? Seems stupid to me!!

John

I think Sam Fadala started it but it's been so long ago I'm not sure.
Rich Elliott

quote:

Originally posted by Chugach:

I want to live alot before I die. So look for me in wide open spaces.

If you insist on hunting Cape Buffalo with a 30-06, chances are. you will either be in an African jail, or toe jam out on those wide open spaces!

How 'bout we make a rule:
The first dozen buffs you shoot has to be with at least a .375 H&H. After that you can use whatever you want. Bow and arrow, sling shot etc.

.

A few years ago a (PH & taxidermist) buddy of mine who should have known better, was up at his brother in laws place. He went out for a walk with his 30.06 just to shoot an impala for the table. When a Buff walked out in front of him he just couldn't help himself and so whacked it. The Buff ran off and fell down a thickly wooded donga (and died) when he hit the bottom he fell in the middle of a pride of sleepy Lions which obviously scattered. The male came out of the donga at considerable speed and headed straight for my buddy who to protect himself shot the Lion in the face at close range.

Then he had to go back and explain to his brother in law that although he hadn't shot an impala he had killed two trophy animals worth umpteen thousand dollars!!!!

Damn, I'd have loved to have been a fly on wall for that one.......

"...you just blew my "need" for a .470 Mbogo!!!..." Don't be daft. You still need it.
As an experienced shooter who knows nothing other than what I've read about Cape Buffalo, I can see a 220 grain .30-06 solid dropping a buff if the shot placement is exact. The .30-06 isn't to be sneezed at.

Alf and Shakari, I love your stories, both are "wish I were there" to see it events. Also, both stories are pretty good examples of two axioms, 1) shot placement makes the difference and 2) if you're going to walk around the African bush with the intention of hunting, you should probably be carrying something that will let you sort out the problem with a minimum of risk.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Chugach:

I want to live alot before I die. So look for me in wide open spaces.

If you insist on hunting Cape Buffalo with a 30-06, chances are. you will either be in an African jail, or toe jam out on those wide open spaces!

Mac most everyone I've witnessed shooting a DBL gun of any caliber couldn't place a pin point shot at any distance on a sleeping buffalo. Forget the bobbing head of a charge.
Matters little at 15 yards if you are shooting a 500 or a 30-06 on a full blown charge if you can't hit CNS.

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
I vaguely remember a hunt report somewhere on AR about an Aussie Buff cull where the write's partner was using a 6.5 Sweedish Mauser to great effect. Are the animals at all comparable?

Rgds,
FB

That probably was me. And it wasn't a cull but full sized trphy water buffalo. My friend "Orion" used his 6.5x54 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer to kill two water buffalo by stalking in close and shooting the beast in the heart with broadside or near broadside shots.

The first beast ran off on being shot and theOne beast didn't even flinch when it was shot and the PH urged him to shoot again so he shot it in the rear hips to no effect. Maybe another shot to the chest.

The second beast didn't even flinch when shot and Orion resisted the PHs urging to shoot again. The buffalo fell after a few minutes from the heart shot.

It is more or less on film.

He used either a 160 gr projectile or a 140gr Barnes X.

He wasn't trying to prove anything, having previously shot over twenty buffalo with his .270 in the early 80's. Just wanted to use his new vintage rifle on buffalo.

Interestingly Karamojo Bell used his Mannlicher-Schoenauer (ie .256 M-S or 6.5x54 M-S) extensively on cape buffalo too, reservinghis .275 Rigby for elephant.


Orion's first water buff.


With Helen Williams, "Diana" of the video camera fame.


Orion's second buffalo. One shot kill, even though the buffalo did not know it had been shot.


With Paul his PH who BACKED UP with a .416 Rigby.

Reads to me as though it comes down to ethical shot placement VS. the DBL gun mindset of raking shots with solids.
In the end we are speaking of muscle and bone not diamond plate.

For Chugagh's benefit here is a photo of a buffalo which they didn't shoot.




This buff WAS AWARE of them and is less than 20 yards away from them and above them. They are in a creek bed looking over the bank. They just tried to see how close they could get. Note how it has come closer to look down on them.

If you used the 6.5mm here, a brain shot might be necessary as it won't be stopped if it was shot and decided to come on, rather than flee. It is pointing in the right direction too . A time where maybe a "DBL raking shot" or maybe better yet a shoulder bone crushing shot is perhaps advisable .

quote:

Originally posted by Chugach:
[
Mac most everyone I've witnessed shooting a DBL gun of any caliber couldn't place a pin point shot at any distance on a sleeping buffalo. Forget the bobbing head of a charge.
Matters little at 15 yards if you are shooting a 500 or a 30-06 on a full blown charge if you can't hit CNS.

That's funny! Instead of discussing the caliber,the portion of this string that is in question, you want to talk the type of firearm. Sounds a little like evading of the issue to me.

Not that it matters, but my post to you was a joke because of the string, and your sig line! Hence the .........




Your reply is a common responce, when one has no backing for an opinion,and in your case I doubt it is anything other than OPINION! In such cases they seem to resort to insult, and try to re-dirrect the point of discussion away from the issue. In this case the use of the illegal 30-06 for shooting Cape Buffalo, in Africa, in any type rifle!


In any event if I were to use a 30-06 in a close charge, I would far rather have it in a good double rifle than a bolt gun! However that is not what we were discussing!

A full 90% of the charges, by animals in Africa, are the results of wounding. That can happen with any cartridge, but it is far more likely if one chooses a cartridge that is too small, or weak for the job, in the first place.

The 30-06, and in fact, all chamberings under 9.3MM in many places, and under .375 generating somewhere around 3000+ FPE at muzzle,in all but a couple are illegal for use on Buffalo for a reason. You don't have to agree with it, but you must abide by it.

My father was a hard head who thought his FN Mauser 30-06 would simply take the moon out of the sky with one shot! You should have heard him when he was told his 30-06 wasn't legal to hunt Cape Buffalo, and that he would have to use my FN Mauser 375 H&H to shoot his Buffalo! I still have his 30-06 rifle, and to date it has never taken any animal more dangerous that a Rockey Mountain Elk.

As far as your opinion of how well I shoot with a double rifle,among other things here, you simply don't know what you are talking about! I haven't had any problem putting down any animal I wanted to shoot, or ONE that I had no intention of shooting at all, but he made the choice, and his CNS got scrambled in short order.

I have always wondered why people resort to insults, when they have no backing for their position. I say use what ever you want, as long as it is legal, but why the insult? I'm not the one reccomending the use of an illegal cartridge!

Nitro I was not in that creek bed hence no comment on shots taken or not with any caliber. Though if I was I do think I would opt to just wait and see if that bull walked out from behind that tree an offered a nice broadside shot.
MAC is your unsolicited chest thumping over yet or may we expect more?

quote:

Originally posted by Chugach:
MAC is your UNSOlISITED chest thumping over yet or may we expect more?

Chest thumping??????????? What chest thumping? I simply don't see the need for the insults, in regard to what was offered as a joke. Chugach, you need to develope a sence of humor. You must admit, it is ironic that your sig line, and the use of a little 30-06 to hunt Cape buffalo, are at odds with each other! I thought it was funny, but I guess the humor was lost on you! Too bad! I'll not comment further!

Hey NitroX
thanks for posting the water buffalo pics.....we don't see enough of the "upside down" buffalo here.

That's some awesome set of horns.....might look good on the wall one would think.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
You must admit, it is ironic that your sig line, and the use of a little 30-06 to hunt Cape buffalo, are at odds with each other!

Mac,

You've got to admit his current signature line is better than his last one: Cats bwana bhang

quote:

Originally posted by Chugach:
Nitro I was not in that creek bed hence no comment on shots taken or not with any caliber. Though if I was I do think I would opt to just wait and see if that bull walked out from behind that tree an offered a nice broadside shot.

I think the 6.5mm seemed quite under-powered in the circumstances of the live curious buffalo above. Any chambering starts to feel lesser when facing one off at close range.

They withdrew I think not wanting to shoot another buffalo.

When I was a kid, I lived on a farm about 10 miles from town.

One day I rode my bike to town.

It worked, but I never did it again since I had a truck.

quote:

Woodleigh is currently manufacturing a 240 grain PP, not a solid, for the 06 with a .361 SD. I would assume most folks here know about it but did not see it mentioned. Below is a link:

When Barnes was making the heavy for caliber bullets I used some 250 grain RN on wild cattle. They were amazingly efficent.

I love the big bores, but I also love punching neat little holes all the was threw with these long bullets. Similar to the 156 grain 6.5 mm bullets.

Have any of you tried these 240 grain Woodleigh bullets, or the 160 grain 6.5mm bullets.

i would be more than happy to use the 06 on buffulo for the rest of my days....give me the 06 loaded with the 200 gn Barnes tsx proj at 2650 ....these things penetrate like there was no tommorrow....so the only variable now is shot placement and im happy to take that responsibility on my shoulders
regards daniel

quote:

200 gn Barnes tsx proj at 2650

No hi-jak intended, but I need to learn more about these projectiles. I am also being told they penetrate better than the long heavies, such as a 165TSX BT can out penetrate a 220 grain RN in the 300 H&H. If it is true, I may have a problem with my traditional views on long thin heavy bullets like the 156 grain 6.5 [.264] bullets.

333
all i can tell you is you will drill a buffulo /scrub bull/bovine from any angle with those 200 tsx proj....one scrub bull i shot well behind the right shoulder and the 200 tsx came out...exited at the point of the left shoulder, it just dropped in its tracks, onother one i shot from about 70 m in the point of shoulder, it broke the shoulder completley and then as if that wasent enough proceeded to exit on the opposte side, and some of these bulls are bigger in body size than the cape buffulo
daniel

I have heard they are great in the 130 grain 6.5 mm too. I will have to try them out.

My standards for a cape buffalo gun are that it work under all circumstances up to and including a charge and not just that it will kill a buffalo.

Karamojo Bell killed many African buffalo with a 22 Savage Hi-power. Anyone can if they get the bullet between the ribs. But its a stunt. You can't stop a charge with a 22 Savage Hi Power nor with a bow and arrow.

But I know that bullets in all calibres up to an including 375 H&H mono solids will sometimes bend and that can compromise the path of the bullet and thus the efficiency of a rifle as a buffalo gun.

However the 375 H&H is great for clients or anyone who in the end is putting the follow up into the hands of the PH. And a 30-06 will work in the same way but less effectively than the 375 when the shots are around the edges of the lungs.

But if you want a rifle that will work so well that if there is a sctrew up you know its you and not the cartridge that failed then get a 458 Lott, or 450 Watts or 450 Ackley.


VBR,


Ted Gorsline

There's only one caliber answer to this thread!

45-70




or the .458 CARMELO either will do just fine

Dear Mitchell,

The 458 at 1600-1800 fps does not have enough penetration. Dan Landry from National Parks in Zimbabwe told me that at one time he was pulling the bullets on 458 ammo and reloading them to increase the speed to increase the penetration. A 45-70 has to stretch like hell to approach those same 458 speeds that previosly were found unsuitable.

Penetration with flat nosed 458 projectiles in ballistic gell is not the as same as penetration where you hit bone.

VBR,


Ted Gorsline

Ted,
the comment about the 45-70 was made in jest. There is a history here surrounding "45-70 for Buff".
However with that clarified, be advised that 45-70s are loaded with 420grain bullets in excess of 2100fps, I shoot them all the time. More than enough velocity for ample penetration on any buff. (we call that load the .458 CARMELO)

But I digress. My post was intended for humour only.
Best regards,

I think a .30-06 with a heavy well constructed penetrating bullet would out do a .45/70. The key word being penetration.

But hey everyone to what they want to use!

.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
I think a .30-06 with a heavy well constructed penetrating bullet would out do a .45/70. The key word being penetration.

But hey everyone to what they want to use!

Nitro,
I agree, a good 200 or 220 grain solid would most definitely out penetrate even the venerable .458Carmelo.