Any help from those who are expert at this would be much appreciated.

I just acquired a Army & Navy double rifle. Here is what I know:

- I is a nicely done, relatively highly engraved .577 NE

- The guard number is 55020, whcih matches the numbers on the action flats (called water table?) and the underside of the barrel. In addition there is a number under the forearm lever 13344.
- The barrels have no numbers on them, but are market on top "577 Nitro Express" on the right, 750 GN Bullet, 100 GN Cordite" on the left and "Regulated for 50 Yards" on the rib. The proof marks are:



- The rifle looks ver similar to Ray's in http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=88422&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1
- And there are more pictures at: http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=634783&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1
- The rifle has obviously been refinished, with incidently a not very good color case job in that is already starting to wear appreciably on the breechface
- I got a fax of the Army & Navy records at Glasgow which say the following: Guard No: 55020, Barrel or Makers number: 13344, Description: Anson DB ClubHead Cordite, barrels sighted to 500 yards, Finished: W+S, It was sold in June of 1914 and sent to Bombay. There is some other information on the facing page around purchaser and cost that will have to wait until I get a cleaner copy. So far so good.
- Now here is the question. The records say size of bore is .470! which raises several questions. How often are these books in error on something like this? Could this possibly have been rebarrelled to the larger caliber? If so, is it safe to shoot? (I've put about 20 rounds through it so far, before I knew all this and am still alive)

Any help would be appreciated.

I would think that based on the proof marks it has had replacement barrels as it's proof is in "tons" sq. in. If I remember correctly "tons" came into use in '54, At least I know it was after '52 as we have a rebarrelled from '52 and it still shows the charge at which it was proofed.

What does the rifle weigh and how is the balance? How wide is it across the face? These might be some clues. I just measured a Martin .577 at 2.48"

Do you have an address in Glasglow for the A&N's you would care to share?

Leroy

In reference to the thread on Ray's rifle and the various actions, in the early '70s I had an A&N .450x3.25 with the Westley richards "type "C" third fastener, sliding bar, wide lever whown in one of the pictures shown in that thread.
I looked in my old records and didn't quickly find the A&N number, but I think it was in the 45,000's. The Westley richards number was 08464, made in January 1903 as per WR letter. It had 28" barrels and only border engraving, but it would shoot! (Never had an A&N that didn't.) I have no idea where it is today as it was one of my mistakes in letting it go to buy an H&H of one kind or another. Wish it were back, but at the time I had a Evans .450#2 ejector, H&H .450#2 Deluxe grade, a Rigby .450x3.25 sidelock ejector and a Boswell .450#2, so who needed the A&N .450, but life goes on!

This isn't much use on your .577 problem, but maybe its of value to the A&N owners.

bradhe first let me congratulate you on this find, it is a very nice rifle!



The re-finish,of the barrels, if done properly, is no drawback in it'sself, however Case hardening, and case color, are two different things, as the re-case color is for looks only, and is less durable, than case color from hardening, and both should be coated with a fine case color shelac. A REAL case hardening should never be attempted on an old rifle, simply to get the pretty color, because there is a real chance of warping the action. That has evidently not been done here!



All the markings on your rifle's barrel flats indicate that the rifle is a full cordite 577 3" ex, and the load of 750, 100 grs cordite, 14 tons, regulated at 50 yds is perfect, and the proof marks are in evidence. The .470 in the records may be that someone wrote the wrong bore dia in that paper, or that the rifle was re-barreled at some later date. This rifle may have been rebarreled because the text on the action watertable seems to be stampings, rather than engravings. Clear stampings are hard to do on case hardened surfaces, and I would say they were done when the action was made, before hardening. In any event,if the rifle was re-barreled,it was re-barreled properly from what I can see, and the 577 3" ex developes about the same chamber pressure that a .470, so there is no reason to worry about the strength of the rifle, as it was proofed for the load indicated!



The rifle is a late one for 577 3", and is a real hunter's rifle, IMO! Don't you wish this rifle could talk, and tell of the tigers, and elephants it has taken in India!

Brad,
I am jealous!! this is a fantastic looking rifle. I have not comments on the manf/maker questions you asked.

I have shot a searcy 577, which at 1800 is quite enjoyable,

I AM suprised, on your rifle, that it's a 3" and in/from India, as the 2 3/4", as I understand it, was the popular round for India.

I'll send you a PM

jeffe

Here are the answers to some of the questions people have asked:

- It weighs 12 pounds 1.5 oz, and is 2.144 across the face
- The Glasgow address (It is the University library) is
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/collects/guides/armynavy.html
They are quite helpful and used to this type of question
- Sorry for the confusion. There are no numbers on the barrels. The 55020 is on the bottom of the FOREARM.
- The engraving in the bottom of the lug is very similar to the rest of the the action, but it is not a continuous pattern, and could have been either at the same time or later.
- There is no Army & Navy markings on the barrels
- These were the best pictures of the proof marks of about 40 tries. Any thoughts on how to do it better. It is a cheap 2MP point and shoot camera.
- How do I learn more about case color (vs hardening)?
- I agree, I think that the numbers on the water table are stampings.

Thanks for everyones thoughts so far. I hope that this additional information is helpful

My thoughts would be that the gun was rebarreled. The action flats show a London Proof house marking (crown over V) and a post 1954 Birmingham proof house marking (crown over BNP). I only see for certain a Birmingham private viewer's date mark on the barrel(the crossed swords with numbers and letters).

I can't really be sure of markings on the barrel flates near the breech--the pic is not clear.

Please give the numbers and letters on the crossed swords on the barrel flats and I should be able to give a date on when the BARREL was proofed.

The Barrel has the hard to read squiggle that is visable in one of the pictures. (The one on the other side was almost polished out). This is followed by the simple crown over BNP and 577 EX 3" 14 TONS. Then the crossed swords with "L" on the left, "4" on the bottom, "C" on the right and nothing on the top. I hope that helps. If this was rebarreled in the 50's would the action have been remarked as well?

The letters on the crossed swords would indicate 1985.

Only the first picture is coming up now, none of the others show up. But doesn't the action have a crown over BNP, just above one of the crown over V's? That would make it having been to the Birmingham proof house sometime after 1954.

Do you have markings on the barrels themselves?

We are likely looking at pieces of a puzzle and are going to have to guess at a likely scenario. :-)

You might even have something like a barrel from one gun on another's action. The stuff that can be done to old guns is amazing.

My Army Navy 12 bore shotgun has Army Navy CSL and a London address on the barrel rib. If your gun does not have the same, I'd guess it's another indication that it's been rebarreled. Bob