See. Like I said. Mention 375 for buffalo, Mark Sullivan, or SCI and the next thing you know, you're at 10 pages!!!

That's called trolling folks!!!




Put all three in a thread and who knows how far it will go!!! Page 2 and we are off to the races!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Slipjig:
Actually Todd, I have a genuine interest.
You sure know how to welcome someone new.
Was I supposed to use a more politically correct way to address the question or is there something you've decided you already do not like about me?
Saeed, maybe you could answer this for me. What's eating at Todd?

Well, let me ask, what evolutionary event has recently occurred that would make the 375 no longer suitable for buffalo? Have buffalo evolved to be tougher? Has the 375 lost a step in terms of current loads? Current 375 bullets less capable these days. What changed?

I mean your question was "Will this old round STILL perform on Cape buffalo ...".

Key word being STILL as if something has changed.

The old 375 probably being the 3rd most hotly debated topic on the forum, right behind the evils of Mark Sullivan or SCI! Ask about any of those three and the replies are predictable, are they not?

I think the 6.5 creedmoor is the game changer and between 900-1100 yards out performs the 375. That is what I heard at academy today

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Slipjig:
Actually Todd, I have a genuine interest.
You sure know how to welcome someone new.
Was I supposed to use a more politically correct way to address the question or is there something you've decided you already do not like about me?
Saeed, maybe you could answer this for me. What's eating at Todd?

Well, let me ask, what evolutionary event has recently occurred that would make the 375 no longer suitable for buffalo? Have buffalo evolved to be tougher? Has the 375 lost a step in terms of current loads? Current 375 bullets less capable these days. What changed?

I mean your question was "Will this old round STILL perform on Cape buffalo ...".

Key word being STILL as if something has changed.

The old 375 probably being the 3rd most hotly debated topic on the forum, right behind the evils of Mark Sullivan or SCI! Ask about any of those three and the replies are predictable, are they not?

I think the 6.5 creedmoor is the game changer and between 900-1100 yards out performs the 375. That is what I heard at academy today

Mike

But only in a Blaser right Mike?

For the OP, the .375 is perfect for jsut about anything. Yes, others shoot farther and/or flatter, and others have more energy, but the .375 H&H seems to be the perfect balance.

A good number of my doubles are for sale now and if I ever divest all of them, a .375H&H would be what I would buy for the remainder of my hunting years. I have a stunning takedown Cogswell in that caliber and if it does not sell I will probably keep it for future use.
Cal

How could you not!

I’m going to get one buffalo hunt in my life, unless I get better at making money. My goal is to do it with a vintage double rifle. If not, it will be with my $875 whitworth .375 h&h.

The only real question should be what scope to use with the 375 H&H. Between Barnes tsx and swift a-frame the bullet is pretty well nailed down too.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Yes it is fine. Personally, I prefer a bigger round.

I agree with Larry’s comment. Yes, it is fine. It will certainly do the job. Like Larry, I too, prefer a bigger round.

But this is all just personal preference. Whatever caliber Larry or I choose, will be fine also. Apparently, we both think a larger caliber is better, but that does not imply that we think the 375 will not work. We have both stated it will!

This got me to thinking about the difference between killing vs. stopping.

Many here have offered their opinion. A lot of these persons have much experience hunting DG in Africa. I have only (8) safaris under my belt. Saeed’s experience is vast compared to mine, and I suspect, many of us on AR. We must respect his opinion because of this. And he firmly believes the 375 is enough for all DG.

I got to wondering what professional PHs use in DG country. Only one of the PHs I have hired have used anything less than a 40 caliber and that was on a plains game hunt in Namibia. He carried a 9.3x62, the only rifle he owned. The PHs in Zim and Zambia where I have hunted DG, have carried 404s, 458s, and 500s.
This is a small sample of (5) DG hunts. So, I wondered how that would compare to a bigger sample size of PH’s choices for DG. Then, I remembered Boddington’s book ‘Safari Rifles II’, where he surveyed over a hundred PHs and their own personal choices for hunting DG or when backing up clients on safari. Here are the results for ‘Thick-skinned Game’:

505 Gibbs...4
500 Jeffery...8
500 NE...8
475 No. 2...1
470 NE...20
458 Lott...14
458 WM...10
450 Rigby...1
450 Dakota...2
450 Ackley...1
450 3 1/4...5
450 No. 2...1
425 WR...1
416 (all)...16
375 (all)...10

No PH on his survey carried less than a 375 when in DG game country.

92 prefered to carry a 40 caliber or higher. 10 carried a 375.

So, what does all of this mean? Is the 375 ‘still’ Ok for Buffalo? Of course it is. Tons of Buffalo have died to a 375 bullet. Probably half of them by Saeed’s 375/404!!

Is there a difference in killing and stopping? You must make that decision for yourself. It’s whatever makes you feel comfortable and safe in the field. For Larry and me, we both like something in the 40 caliber or higher. For Saeed and most of the posters on this thread, the 375 is the ticket. For the 102 Professional Hunters on Boddington’s survey, they prefered an over 40 caliber to a 375 by a little over 9 to 1.

I stated on another thread here that for me, the 375 is a medium bore, but it will kill DG nicely.

‘Still’, I prefer a 40+ caliber. But that’s just me (and Larry).

We are talking about clients here!

I have decided for myself, that I will never ‘rely’ on my PH for my safety or my life. If he can back me up and save my bacon, I’ll be grateful, and my tip will reflect that sentiment. However, sometimes your PH may not be handy at the very moment (second) that you need him. Then it’s up to you alone.

I know you are comfortable in that situation Saeed due to your excellent marksmanship.

I prefer something bigger. To each their own I say. Again, whatever makes the client comfortable in the field.

I have been hunting for so many years, killing hundreds of dangerous game animals, and I have never had a single occasion of my professional hunter saving my skin.

Well, then you are either very lucky, or very good.

I think you’re very good!

I bet if you polled every PH who hunts buffalo, nearly all would say they'd rather a client bring a .375 over any other gun, and it's because they don't want to have to shoot their clients' animals.

When I worked as an appy for two seasons in Zambia, the only times that I saw clients have trouble shooting their guns well was when the caliber started with a 4 (well, there was that one guy who couldn't hit anything with a .300 Weatherby, but I blame that on the noisy muzzle brake). And the only charge I experienced was from a buffalo that was poorly shot with a .416 Rigby. When I saw how the client flinched while checking the gun's zero, I should have known what to expect.

If you think about the odds of a client ever being the one to stop a charge, as compared to the odds of a poorly placed shot leading to a messy follow-up, it's easy to conclude that the .375 is almost always the best choice. Sure, some folks can handle something bigger just as well, but there are fewer of those than there are people who aren't honest with themselves and take a gun they can't handle or, worse yet, try to make up for it with a PH and tracker-deafening muzzle brake.

I like large bore rifles, and have several 416, several 458, one 500 one 600 and one 700 hundred.

I enjoy shooting them.

If for any reason I thought any of them would be better for hunting, I would have used them.

But extensive experience has proven to me that bullet placement supersedes anything else in hunting.

quote:

But extensive experience has proven to me that bullet placement supersedes anything else in hunting.

Amen!

I’m interested in opinions from those with extensive experience using both the traditional .375H&H and one or more of the higher velocity .375s, Saeed in particular.

Do you find that the added velocity gives noticeably better effect on big/dangerous game or is there an other motive behind choosing the faster .375s over the .375H&H?


Klein

My only experience with the 375 is on my wifes Buff and Elephant hunt. Both went down like a ton of bricks. Like any round you could use, shot placement is required. Practice and know your game and where to hit it.

quote:

Originally posted by Klein:
I’m interested in opinions from those with extensive experience using both the traditional .375H&H and one or more of the higher velocity .375s, Saeed in particular.

Do you find that the added velocity gives noticeably better effect on big/dangerous game or is there an other motive behind choosing the faster .375s over the .375H&H?


Klein

My honest opinion is that the only advantage my 375/404 has over the standard 375H&H is better at the longer ranges.

Under normal hunting conditions there is absolutely no difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
The only real question should be what scope to use with the 375 H&H. Between Barnes tsx and swift a-frame the bullet is pretty well nailed down too.

Mike

Im liking the 2-12 x 42 VX6. Low enough power that you can use it in the thick stuff and/or with the illuminated firedot on, and enough power to use in open country hunting. Not that you need 12X, but 8X I might use. It also resists recoil and other damages as I haven't had a single one fail in spite of internet sayings. It is still fairly light with the 30mm tube too.

The .375 H&H Mag. is a good minimum caliber for buffalo. It will do the job.

Guys,

Here's a relevant example of why I recommend the 375 particularly for the first DG safari. A client quite a few years back was inquiring about a rifle for a buffalo hunt. He was a short and very slightly built guy and had never hunted with anything other than a 308. I suggested a 375 H&H and if the 375 recoiled too much to put a muzzle break on it. He told me that would be "TOO GAY". He bought an off the shelf CZ in 416 Rigby and took it on safari. He proceeded to wound and loose 2 buffalo. The follow ups took so much time that his partner in the 2x1 never got to hunt.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
You might get 3 answers to this question.

Armchair buffalo hunters will tell you you need a bigger gun.

Some hunters who like bigger guns will tell you to get a bigger one.

The rest of us will tell you it is plenty good enough for anything that walks this earth.

Just make sure you put your bullets in the right place.

That is all that matters.

……………………………...Absolutely!

The only one shot kills I have had on cape Buffalo have been with a 375 H&H with 300 gr Nosler partitions! All others have taken at least two, and most three or four no matter the chambering. Even with elephant, and Hippo I would still use 300 gr solids but I would have no problem using the 375H&H with proper 300 gr bullets for the animal.

The 375 H&H rifles are lighter, and easier to place bullets properly, which is a necessity with Buff, Ele, and Hippo, and still is a fine rifle for all plains game as well!

505 Gibbs...4
500 Jeffery...8
500 NE...8
475 No. 2...1
470 NE...20
458 Lott...14
458 WM...10
450 Rigby...1
450 Dakota...2
450 Ackley...1
450 3 1/4...5
450 No. 2...1
425 WR...1
416 (all)...16
375 (all)...10

No PH on his survey carried less than a 375 when in DG game country.


The list from Boddington's book is because the PH fires after everything has gone wrong, and once that happens both the client and the PH are slamming him as fast as they can to STOP a wounded buffalo regardless of what the buff was shot withy first. ……………………………………………………………...

I’ve hammered them with 416 RM and 458 Lott and Can’t wait to try 375 I’d not have an issue with right bullets. That said I got a 505 470 and now a 500 NE but I do like my 375s only used them on plains game and a grizzly so far....shot placement by far most important

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

Here's a relevant example of why I recommend the 375 particularly for the first DG safari. A client quite a few years back was inquiring about a rifle for a buffalo hunt. He was a short and very slightly built guy and had never hunted with anything other than a 308. I suggested a 375 H&H and if the 375 recoiled too much to put a muzzle break on it. He told me that would be "TOO GAY". He bought an off the shelf CZ in 416 Rigby and took it on safari. He proceeded to wound and loose 2 buffalo. The follow ups took so much time that his partner in the 2x1 never got to hunt.

Mark

And so he moved to a 458 Lott right?

My friend that sells boats tells me that is how it happens. A guy buys a 30 foot boat and brings it in with 50 hours on it and trades it in for a 40 footer he can use more. Then it doesn't get used so he trades it on a 65 footer he can use.

I would say this to the OP starter:

Buy a .375H&H with controlled claw feeding aka the Mauser with 5 in the mag capacity and shoot it a lot...and use quality bullets such as Swift A-frame.. the .375 is famous for its excellent penetration..a Brno ZKK602 or a CZ550 are utterly reliable rifles..I have used a ZKK602 on game from springbok to elephant..

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
I would say this to the OP starter:

Buy a .375H&H with controlled claw feeding aka the Mauser with 5 in the mag capacity and shoot it a lot...and use quality bullets such as Swift A-frame.. the .375 is famous for its excellent penetration..a Brno ZKK602 or a CZ550 are utterly reliable rifles..I have used a ZKK602 on game from springbok to elephant..

When Mark Sullivan lets them decide how they die does he offer choice of caliber? Is .375 H&H an option?

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
When Mark Sullivan lets them decide how they die does he offer choice of caliber? Is .375 H&H an option?

Mark Sullivan does even know that 375 actually exists!

The 375 is used by real, honest to goodness, buffalo hunters.

The ones who place their bullet with surgical precision.

So there is no chance in hell of any stupid buffalo charges.

Only clueless idiots use a 600 Nitro Express to cover up for their lack of everything related to hunting.

Using a 375 removes any chance of giving anyone the opportunity for a B movie, heavy breathing, self glorifying, self obsessed idiot to face the camera and announce that he is giving the buffalo a choice of how to die.

Completely ignoring the fact that the buffalo is almost dead anyway

And I though I was a Harsh critic of his videos.........

Back in the day, an awful lot of buffalo succumbed to the 9.3x62 with old fashioned solids and cup and core bullets.

And ditto elephants to the 6.5 MS.

It's about the hunter not the caliber!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have been hunting for so many years, killing hundreds of dangerous game animals, and I have never had a single occasion of my professional hunter saving my skin.

That's because the animals you shoot have a tendency to die.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have been hunting for so many years, killing hundreds of dangerous game animals, and I have never had a single occasion of my professional hunter saving my skin.

That's because the animals you shoot have a tendency to die.

Exactly!

I have absolutely no wish to put anyone hunting with me in any sort of danger if I can help it.

Making sure the animal is dead the surest way of achieving this.

On a number of occasions, we have gotten in situations where things could have gone south.

But, we did our best to avoid that by shooting as soon as an opportunity offered itself, and by accurate shooting it all ended well.

Last year, I shot a bull, and he got into some thick bush.

we went after him, and could only see his head as he was turning around - both Alan and Roy said he was looking for us.

As soon as I got a clear shot, I brained him.

He was actually just turned towards us.

Again, both Roy and Alan said if I had not shot, as he saw us, he would have come for us.

Roy and me stayed with the buffalo, while Alan went to direct the truck to us.

Eventually, late in the afternoon, we could hear the truck.

I went looking for it to get a drink.

I heard a whole herd of buffalo running, but could not see them.

Suddenly, less than 100 yards away, I saw them coming straight for us!!

Find a big tree to hide behind!

2 cape buff
1 savanah

300 grain Nosler partions / nosler solids

None went over 30 yards. Follow ups taken but not necessary.

We went after a wounded cape buffalo in that thick stuff in the Chete. A Doc from Michigan had wounded it the day before on his last day of the safari and had flown out that morning with a wish that we try to find the buffalo.

I had my 375 Sako with me and the PH also had a 375 Model 70. I remember thinking that my big rifle did not feel all that big while tracking the buff.

We never did find it so I suspect (as did the ranger and the PH - that it was only grazed) and I got his permit and later shot a bull with the 375.


My last buffalo took four shots with a 375 Ruger. Means nothing as it was a buffalo.

Took 4 in Tanz with a .375 using Swift A-Frames and Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. All DRT, one with 1 shot, 1 with two shots and 3 and 4 with three shots each.

I once wrote an article on the .300 Win Mag (NOT for buffalo). My inspiration was a lot of correspondence that seemed to indicate that with the plethora of newer, "better" calibres on the market, the pathetic old .300 would now somehow bounce off a kudu or an eland. My take was, what the hell has happened to he laws of physics since 1963? If it was good enough for Elmer Keith...

The two really good points that have come out of this are that (1) a bad shot with a .700 nitro is no better than a good shot with a .375, and (2) so many clients need to have put in a lot more rangetime with whatever they bring out.

And for what it's worth, I personally like Zimbabwe's system of basing the legality of a round's use on different classes of game on muzzle energy rather than wholly on calibre. The late Don Heath usually carried a 9.3 x 63 in the bush. He was an experienced reloader and achieved the 5.3kJ of muzzle energy required by Zimbabwe law, and he rarely missed anything he aimed at.

quote:

Originally posted by ijl:
I once wrote an article on the .300 Win Mag (NOT for buffalo). My inspiration was a lot of correspondence that seemed to indicate that with the plethora of newer, "better" calibres on the market, the pathetic old .300 would now somehow bounce off a kudu or an eland. My take was, what the hell has happened to he laws of physics since 1963? If it was good enough for Elmer Keith...

The two really good points that have come out of this are that (1) a bad shot with a .700 nitro is no better than a good shot with a .375, and (2) so many clients need to have put in a lot more rangetime with whatever they bring out.

And for what it's worth, I personally like Zimbabwe's system of basing the legality of a round's use on different classes of game on muzzle energy rather than wholly on calibre. The late Don Heath usually carried a 9.3 x 63 in the bush. He was an experienced reloader and achieved the 5.3kJ of muzzle energy required by Zimbabwe law, and he rarely missed anything he aimed at.

Don was right on the 9.3x62 but alas he is no more here to speak up for it, thank you to bring it back. he was of the few guys i met that always speaking good of the 9.3x62 and knowing what he is talking about ...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
When Mark Sullivan lets them decide how they die does he offer choice of caliber? Is .375 H&H an option?

Mark Sullivan does even know that 375 actually exists!

The 375 is used by real, honest to goodness, buffalo hunters.

The ones who place their bullet with surgical precision.

So there is no chance in hell of any stupid buffalo charges.

Only clueless idiots use a 600 Nitro Express to cover up for their lack of everything related to hunting.

Using a 375 removes any chance of giving anyone the opportunity for a B movie, heavy breathing, self glorifying, self obsessed idiot to face the camera and announce that he is giving the buffalo a choice of how to die.

Completely ignoring the fact that the buffalo is almost dead anyway

Tell us how you really feel Saeed :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Slipjig:
Will this old round still perform on Cape buffalo or do I buy something bigger? Thoughts?

Before my very first safari I asked the same question)
I like to use 375 on buffalo. It’s lightweight, accurate and strong enough. I’m sure I would not be able to shoot 416 standing one leg on the top of termitary, holding rifle by one hand. But I can do it with 375.
The only thing is doubting me: none of my 7 buffalo was finished with 1 shot. 6 first shots were in vital area and deadly for sure. Nevertheless I always have to add some shots.