Hi guys,

Not looking for a shit fight but after chasing up some leads for a hunt, what are peoples thoughts on this??


To me free range means just that, no fences to contain game even around the perimeter.

Fair chase is naturally self sustaining animals inside a perimeter fence.

Fenced to me is put and take.

Cheers,
Mark.

Hunt in a manner that makes you happy.

Let other people hunt in a manner that makes them happy.

Dont break the law.



See how easy that was?

I am not saying one way is any better, worse or anything else.

Well, the problem is, the word "fence" means different things to different people. A three strand cattle fence is one thing, and a 10 foot high, 15 strand, electrified fence is quite another.

Then there is the little problem of the word "sustainable". When you add 200+ heads to your 5,000 acre farm each year, that's not exactly natural or sustainable. However, some believe that if their clients don't shoot all of them, then the population was indeed sustainable and they won't have to spend as much on resupply next year.

Fair chase simply means the animal is not tied to a tree when it's shot. Drugged and untied from the tree shortly before it was shot is up for interpretation.

I always use the coffee pot test. If the animals start running when they hear the cook light the stove for coffee in the morning, chances are you're not in Kansas anymore.

quote:

Hunt in a manner that makes you happy.

Let other people hunt in a manner that makes them happy.

Dont break the law.

Brilliant.

Mark, the problem with your question is that includes terms for which there are wide differences in definition. Not everyone interprets them the same way.

I once hunted on Erindi, an extremely large property in Namibia (that is no longer hunted, sadly). There is a perimeter game fence but no internal fences. The entire area is so large it encompasses an entire mountain range. We drove for hours in a straight line and weren't close to the perimeter. In fact, other than passing through it on my way in and on my way out, I never saw it over the course of a two week hunt. To me, that was fair chase. Some species were naturally occurring, others had been "put" and I "took" some of them. But I'd still call it "fair chase" even though it was also "fenced." To me, that was a far cry from some high fence operations I've seen, where the hunter is shooting five minutes after closing the gate behind him. That's not for me. But if others enjoy it, and it's legal, I don't judge.

Duckear said it best - and in far fewer words than me.

If it fits your idea of hunting - do it. I read somewhere that deer (I know we are talking african animals here) only cover a radius that is very small in all their life for whatever value that is. I have a friend in Zimbabwe who had several thousand acres under a nice game fence with numerous waterpoints. On this property he had several hundred Kudu. I can remember driving an entire day and not seeing a single Kudu. It's your bucks you spend them as you wish. No matter how you spend them I would probably do it differently as you can always spend someone else's bucks better than they can.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Plus 1

Awwww, but it is so much fun to watch everyone get all uptight over their definition of fence, and sustainable, and fair chase. And then the conversation generally gets into South African lions, and then the use of shotguns on leopard followup, followed by Mark Sullivan's antics, and then the age old question is a .375 really ethical for hunting ele and then it just turns into a furball of name calling.

You guys are no fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Awwww, but it is so much fun to watch everyone get all uptight over their definition of fence, and sustainable, and fair chase. And then the conversation generally gets into South African lions, and then the use of shotguns on leopard followup, followed by Mark Sullivan's antics, and then the age old question is a .375 really ethical for hunting ele and then it just turns into a furball of name calling.

You guys are no fun.

You forgot SCI !!

Oh crap, how could I forget SCI??? DAYMN

Haha.....

Wasn't meant to be a discussion on what is right, what is wrong or how much fun we have or don't have.

If I am booking a hunt I just like to be on the same page when talking to outfitters, that's all.

Cheers,
Mark.

That's what's so remarkable about this forum -- THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN KNOWN TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE - or repeat a topic of contention. It really makes for a pleasant forum to visit.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:


Fair chase simply means the animal is not tied to a tree when it's shot.

doesn't it really depend on how long the rope is?.....

Mark:

There are few places that aren't "fenced" in some fashion in most southern African countries - just depends on the size of the property and the height/style of fence. Most properties, largest to the smallest will have at least a perimeter fence to at least mark property lines. Some places I've been on in Namibia and RSA will have a high game-proof fence totally around the property and some only have the high game-proof fences along public roadways and some distance back to keep out poachers, with the back fences going back to a low cattle or boundary marking fence.

Mark, I noticed you are from Australia. I would imagine that even as vast as the "outback" is there are probably some "perimeter" fences somewhere there.

Some places like Erindi in Namibia (175,000 US acres) is high fenced and electrified around the entire perimeter to keep poachers out and their high dollar game species in. As previously stated, the only time you ever see the fence is when you drive through the main gate. Erindi is for sale by the way. I think they are asking a cool $100M US.

Depending on the country and the area you hunt, some Outfitters will do a combination of low-fenced and some high-fenced properties depending on the species your after. Some species that are not native to a specific area and have had to be "bought in" by property owners tend to be kept behind high-fences.

The place we go in Namibia every year is 25K hectors all low fenced and is part of a 650K hector conservancy. Some of the properties within the conservancy are all low fenced, some high fenced and some with combinations of both. The animals on this property are "kept" on the property only by a series of boreholes (wells) water points. Other than that, they are free to come and go as they please either over or under a waist high cattle/perimeter five strand, smooth wire fence.

Fair chase is even more difficult to define, mostly because it is more subjective based on personal ethics. Some people might consider hunting out of a blind over a waterhole or with supplemental feed "fair chase" and some not. Some may see a 500 hector high fenced property fair chase and some would not consider a property of less than 100K hectors acceptable and do the hunting wearing nothing but a loin cloth and a stone tipped spear. I guess it is a bit up to each of us to define what "fair chase" is to ourselves within the bounds of what is legal.

I think it is imperative when we are selecting a PH/Outfitter to express/explain and be very clear on what our personal definitions of the above are and how you'll expect the hunting to be conducted. This way the PH/Outfitter should know if their operations "fit" your goals/desires. It is still most important to sort out what your limits/requirements are, especially since your the one paying the bill.

In the eye of the beholder?

That means don't look at the fence...

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
In the eye of the beholder?

Sorry, I don't believe that......

Cheers,
Mark.

I don't think there are accurate definitions as stated, it all is subjective and means different things to different people.

I will not hunt a high fence for deer or elk in the US. I have been on some properties that are high fenced, huge and the deer are natural and very wild. I believe these places are fair chase (if large property). The deer are not free range, they are not free to go. I really don't have any problem with these type hunts at all, but there is a negative connotation in the US on hunting deer an elk behind a fence, and in my business I just don't want that attached to me. Again, if it is legal, it is cool with me.

In Africa- I guess to me if it has a high fence around it, whether 1000 acres or 500,000 acres, it still isn't completely free range by definition. Would I hunt Bubye, Sabi, Save, etc. where fences exist? Yes! I am going to hunt 200,000 acre Tholo this April/May and cannot wait.

I do feel that all of those places are fair chase if the game isn't supplemented (as in a put and take system), the animals live, breed, feed, etc. on their own. That means that lions and leopards live naturally, killing their own game and were born in the wild, etc. A kudu or lion doesn't get dumped into the area every time one is shot, etc. Of course any of these places with eles around are going to have frequent fence problems.

That being said...to me if a property is 100,000 acres with no interior fences, the hunting is fair chase, if conducted properly. If there are 100 - 1,000 acre fenced off "pastures" or sections within, an you go into each for certain species, etc. I would not think of that as fair chase.

We could all go on forever, but they are just opinions.

Mark I think when you talk to outfitters you just have to be specific, or terminology can be a mess.

ask...

Is your place high fenced? If so how big and are their closed interior fences/sections? If so, how many and how big?

Is your game supplemented, ever, regularly, etc.? If so, why?

What is your regular hunting method?

Things specific like this will not give room for misrepresentation, and that is what you are looking for in the end. Good luck with your search, and would love to share camp...

Good reply Tim, and that has been my thinking when speaking with outfitters. Like has been said earlier, I have no problem with how and why people hunt, as long a legal, but just want to know we are on the same page

My problem seems to be when I ask an outfitter how I wish to hunt they seem to want to make their outfit just what I want

Cheers,
Mark.

Fences are there to keep Poachers out, not keep the animals in. Kudu and Eland will easily jump most fences.

Free range for me is the expectancy of coming across animals that have never seen before. The disadvantage is that seasonal anomalies could lead to movement and absence of certain species and this can be detrimental to a safari.

In quite an effective way, the Ocean surrounding the continent acts as one big fence.

Does that count?

quote:

Originally posted by rnovi:
In quite an effective way, the Ocean surrounding the continent acts as one big fence.

Does that count?

Hey, the animals are also confined to the planet by space - does that count as a kind of a fence?

It doesn't matter, we enjoy such an overwhelming mechanical advantage the animals will never get away from us.

It's only somewhat relevant, but there was a time in Texas it was an insult to ask how much land a person owned. Damn, now that person needs to give actual fence dimensions and coverage. Albeit, most Texas ranch fences are intended to keep from livestock overgrazing certain pastures.

Oh, I'd just be really happy to own land in Texas.

As others have said, hunt where and how you're happy. I recall some "demonic" RSA hunts without seeing an animal even behind those high fences.

quote:

Originally posted by Deon:
Fences are there to keep Poachers out, not keep the animals in. Kudu and Eland will easily jump most fences.

I've yet to hear of or see a fence that effectively keeps poachers out

I guess that's why they are known as a "game fence"

For me it is a mental problem.

If there is a fence, regardless of how big an area is, the animal is NOT free range.

I am happy to hunt plains game on fenced farms, but, I do not feel comfortable hunting buffalo or lion on one.

I also believe in "when in Rome, do as the Romans do".

First time I hunted in South Africa, everyone was having a good laugh at me as I was jumping out of the truck to shoot.

I was told they do it from the back of the truck, and eventually I was happy to do that too.

It made no difference to the animals.

They all ended up dead.

Hunt the way YOU feel comfortable with, as long as what you are doing is legal in the area you are hunting.

Pay no attention to those who try to ram their so called "ethics" down your throat.

They can hunt anyway they wish too.

Bloody hell, they can arm wrestle any animal they wish if their "ethics" dictates it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark R:
Hi guys,

Not looking for a shit fight but after chasing up some leads for a hunt, what are peoples thoughts on this??


To me free range means just that, no fences to contain game even around the perimeter.

Fair chase is naturally self sustaining animals inside a perimeter fence.

Fenced to me is put and take.

Cheers,
Mark.

If a fenced area is 50 miles across and they never stocked the place would you still think it put and take? All fenced areas are not the same.

These terms all have a general agreement,but no one agrees in specifics.

My working definitions are a bit different,but are what makes me happy... And since I am the only one who matters to my hunting, it works just fine.

Free range equates with any fence capable of containing the game does not equate with where I hunt, so as an example, a conservancy with multiple land owners having separate concessions that you cannot violate would count- if the animal can run across the concession boundary if it wishes, it is free range.

Fair chase is a bit more nebulous. If the animal's chance of escape is not reduced by man made obstacles, it is a fair chase hunt, so chasing down an animal in a car vehicle and shooting it or using game fencing to hem in an animal is not fair chase although one can have a non fair chase situation in free range hunting.

Put and take is supplementation of numbers by artificially raised means. Many areas of the Dakotas here in the US are put and take with pheasant despite it being public land, fair chase and free range.

None of the above would prevent me from doing the hunt, as I have shot pheasant and duck on a game farm many times (which is not free range, not fair chase, and is put and take...)

To me the unpardonable sin of it all is not being honest about it. If I shoot a bird on a game farm, I tell my friends it was a game farm, etc. if the operator represents it as fair chase hunting and it is a place where you see the game fence wherever you shot from, and states that the lion is a cattle killer that needs to be taken out asap, well you have been lied to and you are owed something for that.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark R:
Hi guys,

Not looking for a shit fight but after chasing up some leads for a hunt, what are peoples thoughts on this??


To me free range means just that, no fences to contain game even around the perimeter.

Fair chase is naturally self sustaining animals inside a perimeter fence.

Fenced to me is put and take.

Cheers,
Mark.

If a fenced area is 50 miles across and they never stocked the place would you still think it put and take? All fenced areas are not the same.

No Larry, totally different. If it was 50 miles accross, perimeter fence and not stocked to me would be fairchase. If it was 50 miles across and stocked (unlikely) to me would be behind wire.

Free range to me is an area where the animals can move through or live on without undue hindrance. A cattle fence is not containing wild animals. A fence designed to keep game in to me would be fair chase which is fine if you ask and are told just that.

Cheers,
Mark.

There is excellent hunting to be had across Africa from vast open concessions to much smaller high fenced estates.

There are many variables and much has to do with budgets, time, family constraints, personal ethics, physical disabilities etc etc.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
There is excellent hunting to be had across Africa from vast open concessions to much smaller high fenced estates.

There are many variables and much has to do with budgets, time, family constraints, personal ethics, physical disabilities etc etc.

I understand that and appreciate that. Not the question though with all due respect.

Cheers,
Mark.

For all those animals who don't or can't swim very far, one could consider Australia as high fenced . . . or any island for that matter.

Lots of places it's not a fence, it's geographical features, or manmade ojbects. Highways, high cliffs, inland lakes, cities, open fields, they are all basically a high fence in hindering or limiting animal movement.

Up to all of us as individuals to research and figure out what we want to do, everybody's different. Like said above, one can view the entire planet as high fenced, as the animals are not free to get off. Or on the other hand I guess we could send em out on a spaceship

quote:

Free range for me is the expectancy of coming across animals that have never seen before

No more words needed.

IMO the answer to this problem is to stop using the term " free range " it's to broad and doesn't define anything. All operators should just say if its " low fence" " high fence" or " no fence". Then let the hunter decide.

What's the definition of " Free range chicken "?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
For me it is a mental problem.

If there is a fence, regardless of how big an area is, the animal is NOT free range.

I am happy to hunt plains game on fenced farms, but, I do not feel comfortable hunting buffalo or lion on one.

I also believe in "when in Rome, do as the Romans do".

First time I hunted in South Africa, everyone was having a good laugh at me as I was jumping out of the truck to shoot.

I was told they do it from the back of the truck, and eventually I was happy to do that too.

It made no difference to the animals.

They all ended up dead.

Hunt the way YOU feel comfortable with, as long as what you are doing is legal in the area you are hunting.

Pay no attention to those who try to ram their so called "ethics" down your throat.

They can hunt anyway they wish too.

Bloody hell, they can arm wrestle any animal they wish if their "ethics" dictates it.

I couldn't have said it better and wholeheartedly agree. I've hunted free range in Tanzania and Burkina Faso and I've also hunted fenced in South Africa and Namibia. So far I haven't been on a "bad" safari.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

What's the definition of " Free range chicken "?

I dunno, but have you ever tried to hunt one? Fish in a barrel I tell you.

What would people consider the Save Conservancy or Bubye ?

Mike