Hello,
After reading many interesting postings for a few months on this forum, I decided to join the club. I have hunted twice in S.A. since two years and shot some nice spring bok a vaal rheebok, last month in the Karoo aerea , north of Cape Town. Then I went to the neighbourhood of Tabazimbi, north of Joburg to hunt zebra and nyala. During my first safari, I went for impala and wildebeast. I am planning to go again to another different region, so I guess the bug has bitten me well enough!! My dream is to hunt buffalo and I am planning to do so in 2009. Meanwhile, I have contacted a well known outfitter who has a concession in Mozambique. I intend to buy a dedicated Safari rifle and am now confrontated with the selection of gear and caliber. I now posess a Sauer take down rifle in .30-06 and a switch barrel in .300 WM. I tend to go for the Sauer take down Hatari in either .375 H&H or .416 Remington Magnum. The outfitter told me to stay away from the .416 because last season, he had several clients with bolts that would not open due to excessive heat. I know that the Remington is more sensitive to heath than the Rigby, but cannot imagine the caliber being so popular, if these problems occor frequently. I must ad that I do not have any experience with shooting either the .375 or .416. I know that there are a lot of experienced guys in the forum that could give me sound advice. Looking forward to your reaction and to the fact that I a now part of the forum!

i used a blaser 416 in Tanzania for big game with no problem what so ever. Great round and great rifle. i have heard that before. I have used a 300 ultra remington two times also in Naimbia and have no problem-and that has some high PSI in there.

alot of hunters keep ammo too long and with airtravel pressures, temp. etc. do affect the round after time.

That has been the knock on the .416 Remington for years! However, I've never talked to anyone who had a problem with it. In fact, I hunted with a PH who used one (CRF rifle) for backup in Zimnbabwe.

That said, I'd rather have a CRF rifle in the Rigby version of the .416. I like the lower pressures of the Rigby round.

I hunted with a friend seveal years ago when he was hunting elephant. He put 3 rounds through the head side to side from 30 yards. That is enough penetration for me.

i think i've been with more PH's using a 416 remmy than any other round, and none were having problems mozm can be hot, you've got a year - wait till it gets hot where you are and try it, i doubt that you'll have a problem

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Duc:
I hunted with a friend seveal years ago when he was hunting elephant. He put 3 rounds through the head side to side from 30 yards. That is enough penetration for me.

I'm no elephant hunter, but if you put three rounds through an elephant's head, doesn't that mean you missed with the first two?

Ron: The .416 Rem had a reputation for excessive pressures under high heat conditions. I think this was pretty well limited to early loadings of factory ammunition. If you are using your own handloaded ammunition or recent factory ammunition, this should not be a problem. There is nothing inherently different about the .416 Rem and the .375 H&H that would cause one to have a sticky bolt lift and the other not -- other than poor loading practices on the part of the factory.

My .416 Rem. hasn't been to Africa yet (Selous in August)but it has a lot of rounds through it. I live in Houston and hunt in extreme South Texas -- its hot, Africa hot. Never had a problem with bolt opening. Haven't worked up a load because it shoots the factory Federal premium so well. Did your PH mention whether the folks with the problems were shooting handloads?

That is just pure BS..I have used the .416 Rem since it first came out and I have shot many buffalo with it..I have used it in hot climes of Africa and in the USA. Africa seems to think they have a coller on the heat thing, but we have places in the USA that are hotter, much hotter. I have tested my .416s in 120 degree plus heat in the texas S. W. and never had a problem.

If one is having problems with the .416, then its not the caliber, it the nut at the reloading press. Like any caliber if you over load it then you will have problems..The simple fact is you can get 2400 FPS in the .416 with a 400 gr. bullet and 78 grs. of RL-15, and that is 5 grs. below max...

All the factory ammo that I have tried in the .416 Rem has not been hot, not even warm, it is loaded pretty mild..

That rumor was started by a test done in Africa and written up in some African rag, and it just didn't ring true. Usually when you investigate these claims you will come up with a logical reasoning as to how it really happened...

How could the .416 have anymore pressure than the .375 H&H and its a proven caliber, they are both on the same case, but the .416 has a larger cross section and that lowers pressure.

What is also outstanding is how little "some" PHs actually know about balistics.

Ron,

I have a .375 H&H and my uncle has a .416 Taylor. They are both pleasant shooting guns and relatively flat shooting. If you haven't shot guns with a lot of recoil then the .375 might be a good place to start. It is a flatter shooting gun which is nice for long plains game shots. The weight of the gun, muzzle break, good recoil pad, and properly fitted stock will go a long way to making the gun shoot like a dream even if it is a thumper. I suppose if you plan on using this gun for all your African DG in the future and you plan on shooting an elephant then I would go with the .416.



Stonecreek,

The problem is the .416 rem mag has a smaller case capacity than the other popular .416's. This means loads are compressed when trying to attain .416 Rigby like performance. Due to the smaller case capacity the chamber pressure of the .416 rem mag is much higher and closer to the danger zone no matter who loads it. The problem lies in hunting in hot climates which can increase chamber pressure significantly to a dangerous level (especially if you hand load to max velocity/pressure at a cooler climate). There doesn't have to be a violent explosion to cause problems either. When pressure exceeds safe levels cases can stick causing extractors to be torn off bolts while trying to eject them effectively turning your rifle into a 10 pound paper weight!!! Not much sense in risking all that when there are other .416's out there without this problem. The other two options with the .416 rem mag are to load them down (making a comparatively slow .416 rem mag slower) or use a lighter grain bullet (350gr) which is shorter and decreases compression (i.e. pressure). Again not much sense in all that when other .416's don't have these problems.



butchloc

I would imagine some PH's use them because they and/or their ammunition are cheap and available not because that's their best choice. Personally I would want my PH on a DG hunt to be sporting a .458+. .416's hardly an ideal backup caliber. Sufficient maybe I'll let the experts debate that one, but ideal no!

Brett

/

I shoot a 416 Remington and live in South Louisiana. Our heat can be a little.....well hot. I have not yet seen any signs of pressure. As I have become older I guess I am becoming lazy since I have not reloaded for the 416. All factory loads have been either Remington with the 400 grain bullet or Norma with the 450 grain bullet.
I like the caliber. Hits harder than the 375 and the recoil is not bad.

I will line up with Ray on this one. I have used my 416 Rem Mag in Africa and have never had an issue. High temps in Africa have nothing on the high temps in the Northern Sacramento Valley. Those of you who think it makes a difference need to get out of the heat.

There is always the romance of hunting in a far off land, and I can't wait to return to the Selous. But romance is one thing, the laws of physics is another. Reloader 15 does not create higher pressure south of the equator.

This is one of those myths which may or may not have had roots in fact a longish time ago. Unfortunately people like to perpetuate myths....makes them look informed. Point is , the 416 rem mag is very good NOW!

Alf,
I wouldn't even begin to suggest Don Heath lied about anything, If I call a man a liar it will be to his face, not on some internet board...

If Don wrote that article, I think other issues were involved, and that he was mistaken as to WHY it occured..end of story.

/

ALF

Absolutely right. They slowed it down to deal with the pressure issues.



Ron

My earlier post was not to run down the .416 rem mag or question anyone’s manhood who uses one, but just to point out that if you have other .416's that don't have the potential pressure problems we have discussed then why not buy one of them? Price would be a concern for some as other .416's tend to be expensive, but I went on www.gunbroker.com after my earlier post and found a CZ .416 Rigby for in the $800's. With a little custom work you could quickly be in business with an African ready rifle.

If you must buy a .416 rem mag then use factory (which are cheaper than factory Rigby) or load them down when you hand load! Also buy a rifle with a stout extractor, so the damn thing doesn't tear off if you do have a problem!

Other comparable cartridges to consider would be: .404 Jeffery's, .416 Rigby, .425 Westley Richards, .416 Taylor, .416 Weatherby Mag, not to mention other wildcat cartridges if you're into the exotic.

Brett

I don't have any experience or opinion with the 416 Remington, but I fully agree with Ray. I wouldn't call a man a liar unless I was sure about it, it was important and I was ready to defend myself. Then again I live in the West ..

Chuck

FYI

Maximum Average Pressure:

.375 H&H - 53,000 cup
.416 Rem Mag - 54,000 cup
.416 Rigby - 47,000 cup

Brett

For god sake Ray isn't calling the man a liar he just has a difference in opinion! Let's keep on track and help a man out who is looking for advice on a rifle! Too many threads go South on here for no reason let's stay focused!

Brett

H/

quote:

What is also outstanding is how little "some" PHs actually know about balistics.

Yeah, the 416 Rem "problem" resurfaces every so often, like the maligned 458 WM. It is just the same old urban legend crap.

Have used the 416 Rem extensively in Africa without a hitch. I probably know more PH's using the Rem than any other cartridge.

If you look at what PH's carry in the ammo belt, I doubt many of them know where they even came from, much less their reload history.

The 416 Rem is just a slick cartridge that always feeds and always works. I know the upcoming 416 Ruger will be viewed as the second coming, but the Rem works and that is all there is to it.

I expect to see this same "problem" return in about six months.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

If I call a man a liar it will be to his face, not on some internet board...

I don't know about that Ray. You called me liar on this internet board when I wrote that booking agents make 15% on advertised daily fees. In fact I think the term you used was "A bald (SP) faced liar."

I've seen your temper overwrite your brain numerous times on this site!
------------------------------------------------

I've personally never seen a problem with the .416 Rem in extreme heat. For what that is worth.

Pressure is pressure and the .416 Rem. has the same as MANY other modern rounds.

If the .416 Rem. were a problem round, then ALL with similar pressure would be problem rounds.

IMHO, as with loads for the .458 Win., loads for the .416 Rem. may have been a problem at one time, but they are not a problem any longer.

H-4895 and Reloder 15 are outstanding powders for the .416 Remington. Both are highly resistant to temperature change. If properly loaded, ie, not spilling out of the neck before bullet seating, there will be no problems.

Cowboys who insist on the highest velocities should buy a bigger round. Weatherby and Lazzeroni make them.

.... I have never been to Africa or shot my 416 Rems in a hot climate ., But like Will says , all the 416 Rem does is work always in my experience , ..And I have trusted my and my wifes life on it on a few occasions /

Perhaps it is because of my [Homesteader] mentality , but I find it one of the best rounds ever ...

I may be reviseing my bullet choice to the 330 or 350 grain weight . but that is possibly due to the availability of the 350 gr Speer bullet ...And my rifle seems to like the 350 TSX alot ....

As to Don Heath's claim of the bullets creeping out of the cases , that wouldn,t suprise me one bit as I have gotten boxes of Federal factory Premium Safari ammo in 338 win mag , and 458 Win mag that had loose bullets and one box of solids in 458 I could grab the bullet and pull some of them from the cases with my fingers ..LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE TO THE RESCUE !!!!!!!

Barnes lists 79.5 as max for their 400 grain banded solid with reloader 15. I have run up to 81 with no pressure signs but backed off to 79.5 as it was the most accurate. Most of the new manuals list lower max loads for the 416 than the older books but like Ray said you dont need max loads to get 2400 fps. It gets 105 in the Sacramento valley and thats a lot hotter than I have seen it in Africa in the winter.

A different slant on the 416 rem thing. Just suppose you were a PH & unsure of your clients ability with a big kicking rifle, in which category I'm going to place the 416s of any persuasion for 90% of us. You wouldn't want to make an attack on your clients manliness by suggesting they couldn't handle a 416, but you've seen plenty who were leery of them so rather than suggest a 416 may not be the best choice, specially for a plains game hunt, you attempt to scare them off a 416 by using the well worn story of pressure problems. "Bring a 375 you say, they've been around since Pontius was a pupil pilot, you won't get into trouble with one of them" There're plenty of stories of clients who have scared themselves & their PHs silly by trying to shoot big thumpers, often see the word Weatherby in the text here, that they were unfamiliar or incompetent with. Not all Safari clients have the benefit of AR advise.
Just a thought.
Steve.

Tanks a lot guys for all your input on this subject. It seems that I opened a 'can of worms' on this one. My conclusion so far is that the .416 Remington Magnum can be used in hot temperatures with actual factory loads or carefully reloading. Let's narrow the question a bit to the issue of the rifle battery. I now have a .30-06 and a .300 WM and want to hunt buffalo as well. I am not sure if I will hunt other dg like ele some day. Would it be advisable to 'skip'the .375 H&H and go straight for the .416? How would you rate the recoil of the .416 Rem. in comparison to the .375? I've checked recoil tables, but this is no substitute for the real feel, I guess.

Well, the 416's kick more just like the tables tell you. It is a noticable step up (5000 ft-lb versus 4100 ft-lb).

I think everyone needs to go the 375 route first to test the water, in my opinion.

I also have the Hatari model - Use the 458 Lott or the 375. My hunt last year was with my 375 for all animals.

LAD

very interesting, csxcs. Are you satisfied with the performance of the Hatari and why did you choose specifically for the .375 and .458 Lott ?

If you are interested in the Blaser Model 93, I understand there is a new variant of that model called the Blaser 93 "Selous". It has a steel action and sideplates? The sideplates are colour case hardened for a nice touch. This might be the right version for someone looking at a .375 H&H or 416 Rem. I'm not a 93 owner but I do believe this is the best looking of the lot. Here's a link:

http://www.blaser.de/R-93-Selous.979.0.html?&L=1

If I were on a limited budget and wanted a .416 Remington I would buy a used Winchester Model 70. If you want a new rifle, you might want to consider the Ruger in 416 Rigby. It is a very good value, a nice looking rifle and usually findable in Europe somewhere. Suggested list price (although you can find them for less in the USA) is around $2,300. That is only about 1,500 Euros. Here's the Ruger web site:

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=7505&return=Y

Im going DG hunt in Zim in October and will use my Mauser 416 Rigby for that.
I like Sauer because they are very accurate.
I havent hunted buffalo with it, but other animals like moose, eland,kudu,springbok,stenbok,zebra etc.
The only minus is not having mausers controlled feeding.

csxcs, Does this mean, you had feeding problems or extracting problems with the Hatari ?

I have had only one accident with that rifle.
The stock screw came loose in Africa and my rifle ended up in two pieces i dont why it happend probably vibrations.

I simply wonder why a man can have an opinion, and another can pull an unrelated article up and accuse him of calling someone a liar..
Am I missing something here or is someone just being a dickhead and taking a cheap shot when he can?

It seems like a hell of a stretch to tie Rays statement together with calling someone a liar.

Ron

Have you shot any .375+ rifles or shotguns with slugs? If not I would agree with Will and just go the .375 route. Mine kicks signifigantly less than my slug gun for deer. Whatever you buy spend the extra money to make sure the stock fits you. You will have faster target aquisition and less perceived recoil. If cost is a concern I would buy either a Ruger or a CZ. My rifle falling apart in the field would scare the hell out of me! I wouldn't even consider a rifle like that on a DG hunt (or probably any other for that matter), but that's just my oppinion.

Brett

I went the 375 H&H route with my CZ for my first big/medium bore and am happy I did it. I was concerned about the recoil but it seems very light compared to what I was expecting shooting factory 300g loads. I am rebarreling to a heavier caliber this winter. If I could've shot a range of heavy caliber rifles, I probably would have gone with a 416 Rem to start, now I'm probably going to end up with a 470 Capstick or 495 A-Square.

Good luck, I'm learning a lot as I work my way up in caliber ... and the forums have been invaluable.



Chuck

I have used a 416 Rem Mag in all weather conditions from bear hunting in Kamchatka, to Moose in the NWT, to multiple DG hunts in Africa including Buffalo in Tanzania, two safaris in Burkina Faso where the day time temperature was 105 F, without any problem.

In my opinion it is a great caliber.

Aziz

Brett Adam
Yes, I shot Slugs (Brenneke) in my shotgun and yes it kicks, but does not beat the hell out of me. It's just like you describe: I might end up on bigger calibers and just don't know if I should take the shortcut, so to say. I mean, if I would now take the .375 H&H and lateron would go for the .416 Remington, would I still make use of the .375 ? They both shoot reasonibly flat. We should also bear in mind that I am a leftie, so it's not that easy to sell a left handed switch barrel.