Just curios to hear if any of you have used any calibers below say 9.3x62 on buffalo, and the internal damage done to the animal when hit by a say 7mm 175gr bullet or such like. Details such as distance, caliber,bullet,bullet placement etc are important. Thanks

Ken Stewart, Pietersburg, SA shot a few hundred if not close to one thousand buffaloes with his Mauser 98 in 8x57JR.

But that was in Kenya 1940 - 1960s and the buffaloes didn't know that they had to be shot with a +.40 caliber rifle if they should die properly...

Thank you. What Im interested to know is how extensive is the internal damage to a buffalo when hit by a high velocity small bore? Ive seen an Eland connected through the lungs with a .270 130gr bullet at 80yds and the damage to the lungs was impressive.

If the bullet could stay together and penetrate adequately, surely a heavy 8mm 220gr expanding bullet, for example, would be superior to a 9,3 or .375 solid leaving a small 9mm-ish hole?

Consider than many buffalo have been taken with a .375 solid, as it was the norm before premium solids.

7x57's, 8x57's, .303's etc must have accounted for thousands of clean buff kills. Many buff also died at the hands of 250gr .318 WR bullets (.330"), .350Rigby's, .333Jeff's and I have read of few being taken quite cleaning with .338 Win's and decent bullets.

I have not shot a buff but this seems logical?
Ensuring penetration and placement would be key.I would still prefer a 9.3 minimum!

Absolutely, I agree on a 9.3 minimum, just interesting to learn what a smaller caliber does to the internals of a large animal.

Under the right conditions a 243 Win will take cape buffalo as clean as a 600NE, and drop him in his tracks. Many cape buffalo are taken illegally every year in every country where buffalo are hunted with 338 Win Mags. The 338 Win Mag seems to be the choice for women hunting buffalo with thier husbands, and PH to back them up. It seems safari companies turn a blind eye to the illegality of the 338 Win Mag where women are concerned. I'm not sure the 338 Win Mag is not a good buffalo rifle in fairly open bush, and probably should be included amoung the legal chamberings. However, there has to be a line drawn someplace, and I'm quite comfortable with the 9.3 as minimum.

I have posted this before but I bought a rifle previously owned by Tony Boyce in 8x60, he told me in a two week period culling period with Rhodesian Park Service, he took 60 ele and 100 buff with it....

I think the issue is not "IF" but "SHOULD".

As several have posted, the choice of rifle must be based on worst case scenario, not optimum.

If you are okay with the PH killing your game, like mark sullivan does; heck, take a 22 Hornet.

There is a moral obligation to the animal to kill it quickly and cleanly.

Rich

Thanks for the replies but Im interested in knowing what DAMAGE these small calibers do to the heart/lungs/spine/brain etc.

When I hunted in SA with Mafigeni Safaris, Claude Kleynhans introduced me to a retired PH whose name IIRC was Brian Smith. Smith claimed to use nothing but a 7X57 in all the years he was a PH and had taken many buff in culling as well. If you are around Nelspruit, you may try to contact Claude and he can give you more info.

Roy Weatherby tried out his high velocity calibers in Africa taking dangerous game as well as plains game. I don't know where you would find information on his hunts now though. Elgin Gates shot alot of big game with a 300 Wby Mag I belive, but again not sure where you would refrence this information. In one of his later books I belive "Tracks Across Africa" Craig Boddington details the taking of a buffalo in Tanz with a 338 Win or Ultra Mag. As I recall the bull was taken cleanly with a broad side shot however I can't remeber if any more details are given to answer the questions that you are looking for as it has been some time since I read the book. Also alot of buffalo have been culled over the years with calibers smaller than 9.3 although I don't know if any details of these hunts were every written down.

It's not the caliber that counts, it's the right bullet in the right place.

Surrender lal, No one is going to give you the information that you are asking for. They will only repeat over and over the same mantra, 9.3 or bigger, 9.3 or bigger,9.3 or bigger.....

eyedoc,

any thoughts on why they keep saying that?
Check back about eighty-ninety years in the Epitaph section of the Nairobi newspaper.
For every Bell, there are a hundred or more graves of young men who thought to emulate him. The 280 Ross got a lot of them a home; 3"x6"x6" deep.

regards,

Rich

I have seen a Cape buf and Australian buf taken very nicely with a 338Win

About the only people who could give you any real information on the damage small bores do on things like cape Buffalo, would be poachers, or culling officers. I doubt the rank an file of members here will have the experience you need for your origenal question. Most here who have hunted dangerous game in Africa did so with legal rifles, and would only see the results of the damage done by those rifles.

I'm sorry this turned into a what is or should be minimum for dangerous game instead of Nicropsy report on 30 calibers on Cape buffalo, but the post offered, though not what you asked, is all a client hunter in Africa will have on hand!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Under the right conditions a 243 Win will take cape buffalo as clean as a 600NE, and drop him in his tracks. Many cape buffalo are taken illegally every year in every country where buffalo are hunted with 338 Win Mags. The 338 Win Mag seems to be the choice for women hunting buffalo with thier husbands, and PH to back them up. It seems safari companies turn a blind eye to the illegality of the 338 Win Mag where women are concerned. I'm not sure the 338 Win Mag is not a good buffalo rifle in fairly open bush, and probably should be included amoung the legal chamberings. However, there has to be a line drawn someplace, and I'm quite comfortable with the 9.3 as minimum.

the 338 has all the required penetration and a high sectional density it can definitely do the job but is still illegal.

with a well placed head shot anything will kill a buff

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:

with a well placed head shot anything will kill a buff

This is true but IMO it is extremely easy to fluff up a head shot on a Buffalo.

My fathr killed all his elephant, buffalo and lion with a standard 8mm mauser. Many of the culling officers in the vetinary dept and national parks used their issue F.N. FAL's in 7,62 for culling buff. The rule of thumb though was you started out with something bigger and when you had personally shot at least 2-300 you could use whatever you wanted.

The other side of it though was we were culling in the middle of a war, and I assure you, a gook with an AK if far more dangerous than a buff or an ele, so the incentive was for officers to carry the best possible rifle to deal with people and make it work on big game.

I have stopped two charges by buff with 7.62. I dropped one at 12 paces with a double tap into the spine (he was charging head down) and one with a burst of 18 roundss- 15 of which hit him in the neck or face. (I was carrying an LMG that night). I have also wounded and lost a buffalo I tried to shoot for rations using my F.N. and had the 'joy' of following up many other buff that have been wounded by small bore rounds fired by various folk on the culls.

BUT- the minimum caliber rules (9,3, .375, .40 depending on country) were bought in to stop amatures getting killed. Idaho SS got it right - the authorities got tired of sending coffins home. The recent advances in bullet design probably mean you could lower the legal minimum quite safely, and this is especially true for visiting sportsmen guided (and Backed ) by a PH. The rules, however also need to apply to local hunters, many of whome have never seen a buffalo outside a game park before their first hunt, and are not guided by a Pro- at best they are with an experienced friend...but not always. I only picked up one smeered body of a young citizen hunter, but he tried to shoot an elephant cow with a soft point and died for it. I have also picked up several of my own parks staff who died failing to stop an elephant or buff- but that is considered one of the risks of the job.

As a PH there is a bit of latitude- In zim you can get a 'special permit' from parks allowing your client to use an underpowered weapon - bow, handgun, .45-70 or whatever and you can asses each case on it's merrits. eg- a .45-70 is a much better choice for buff than a .30-06 but on ele the reverse is true. As a PH it is your cock (and perhaps life) on the block..so you decide if your client is up to it.

Agreed with Ganyana 100%.

He is experienced enough to make a small bore work 99% of the time. But, the recent report on Alan Shearing also shows the potential for disaster on Cape Buffalo if things hit the shitter. Same with most of the Dangerous Game in the world.

Well said...

Rich

i wonder why not using just the 9,3x62 instead of searching trouble!? it is not a hard kicking round even ladies and youngsters can shoot it with ease and there are plenty of good bullets as heavy as 320 grain in both soft and solid and it is legal which means that lawmakers have studied the round and agreed it is an enough caliber for the task.
regards
yes

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
i wonder why not using just the 9,3x62 instead of searching trouble!? it is not a hard kicking round even ladies and youngsters can shoot it with ease and there are plenty of good bullets as heavy as 320 grain in both soft and solid and it is legal which means that lawmakers have studied the round and agreed it is an enough caliber for the task.
regards
yes

I agree! Why not just use what is legal, and be done with it! In the case of the 338 Win Mag with proper bullets for taking buffalo, the recoil, in most rifles, is more than the 9.3X62 or 9.3X74R with the heaviest quality, both soft, and solid bullets available for them.

Personally I'd rather have something a little larger like one of the .400s, but would not hesitate to hunt Buffalo with a 9.3 of either type, but would much rather have the 74R in a double rifle than a bolt 62.

I can personally attest to the lethality of the 9.3X74R on Buffalo! The top of the heart was nothing more than tatters, and the lungs were both blood shot about 4" around the bullet holes through them, and the bullet stopped just under the hide on the off side. The bullet was a 286 gr Nosler Partition, followed by a Woodliegh solid, in the left hip that exited out the right flank, missing the hip joint and bone. He ran about 60 yds, and piled up, no blink left in his eye!

Since calibers smaller than 9.3 aren't legal for buff hunting in any African Hunting country, what is the point in wondering for a sport hunter? Buff are about the same size as Alaskan/Yukon moose and the bones are similar in size. What you see in tissue dstruction in one is probably mostly applicable to the other.

465H&H

John Sharp has a promo vid of a guy shooting buff with a full-wood Lee Enfield No.4.

I would like to know more about that and what the motivation was as it appears that the guy used only that rifle for other game as well (.303 still puts them down without fanfare), so perhaps he had some goal in mind, nostaglia reason etc.

Kayaker...Parks and Vet department were issued with .303's until 1988. We had a limmited supply of H&K G3's and those who were good at scrounging, in police or army reserve could get F.N.'s. I was initially issued a G3 and a week later bought my own No5...at least it worked. Several of the older guys who were very familiar with their No 4's stuck with them until the end of the buffalo erradication programme. A 303 with issue Norma 180grn soft point or older PMP 210grn SP worked about like a .308 with 180 grn bullets.

A lot of game gets poached in Zim with 303's.

But what's the point?

When the client runs for the trees and the PH has to deal with a wounded buff, and/or gets gored and/or gets killed, where will the client be then?

And then we'll get the story about how it really wasn't the clients fault!

Does the client ever pay the trophy fee when a PH gets gored?

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Kayaker...Parks and Vet department were issued with .303's until 1988. We had a limmited supply of H&K G3's and those who were good at scrounging, in police or army reserve could get F.N.'s. I was initially issued a G3 and a week later bought my own No5...at least it worked. Several of the older guys who were very familiar with their No 4's stuck with them until the end of the buffalo erradication programme. A 303 with issue Norma 180grn soft point or older PMP 210grn SP worked about like a .308 with 180 grn bullets.

Thanks Ganyana,
I'm sure lots of anti-poaching units still train with LE's - some did in KZN and NWP in the 1990's.
I never knew PMP made a 210gr .311 bullet! All the old stuff I saw or shot was 174gr.
I do believe PMP actaully made 48% of all .303 ammo ever produced in the commonwealth - read that from a PMP info sheet I have somewhere.

I made the last post on the basis of your comment about special permission for clients to use sub-legal cals, then I remembered seeing the John Sharp promo with the client and the Lee Enfield