It amazes me just how many people book an expensive hunt without checking out the outfitter. There are so many means of doing so today, yet it seems they book first and ask latter. I've had a few bad outfitters/hunts knowing full well what I was getting into because I knew the people who had hunted there before, yet things changed. It's just as easy to ask in this forum, or others, before you go and spend your hard earned dollars. If fact, things like this forum, SCI, FNAWS etc. are all formed around the idea.

Interesting post........The vast majority of our hunting enquiries/bookings don't even ask for references......but that may be because we have such a large percentage of new clients who come to us through personal recommendation.....I'd be very interested to hear from other outfitters/agents about their experiences on this.

not being a booking agent nor outfitter but rather a hunter whom has been on more hunting trips than I deserve I would like to comment on the lack of asking for references.
I really do not see the sense in it, what company is going to give you a list that includes unhappy clients?
I talk to somewhere in the range of 300 outfitters per year here in the states. After a few years it takes little to spot a fraud or someone making out landish claims.
I also never hire an outfitter unless I personally know someone whom has hunted with that outfitter first. And then only if I know the type of hunter they are to begin with.
It is more important to me to know what the equipment is like, the food, experence of the guides, etc. than it is to talk to someone whom made 1 or 2 trips in their life and has manageds to kill a nice trophy on one of them. Pretty hard not to say something nice about a company that just sent you home with a big bull.
I once was booked with a big name outfitter, whom also ran a hunting operation themself.Couple months before I was to leave for the trip I read in a magazine where this outfitter/booking agewnt had been arrersted for illegal hunting of mule deer. I canceled real quick and kissed the deposit goodbye!

Steve

AS you know I actually live in NZ and work from home. I personally use the internet exclusively for all my marketing & hunt bookings.

About 50% of my bookings come directly to me, the rest come via other agents, outfitters, PH'S whom want their clients to hunt with us for one reason or another.

ABOUT 50% of all my ( non referral ) clients whom come to me direct from the internet would ask for a referance, but word of mouth is proberbly the reason a lot of enquiries dont ask for a referance as they have already gone through the vetting process when they contact me

Peter

I wouldn't dream of booking with an outfitter without checking for references.....unless it was one that I've used before.....and SCI is among the best places to do this.....
I wouldn't hesitate to book with Mr. Atkinson however since I've read his messages here a lot and find him to be a down to earth man.

My 1st trip to Africa was made thru a large well-known booking agent (does't post here) and I carefully checked the references of the hunting company in Zim he recommended. I talked on the phone to at least a dozen recent clients and all the hunters were very positive so I booked a 14-day leopard/sable/plainsgame hunt 1x1.

Unfortunately the hunt was almost a complete disaster from the beginning. My contract stipulated I was supposed to hunt with the owner of the company but when I got there it turned out he had taken a later booking with 4
European hunters and couldn't/wouldn't take me as agreed. Instead he hired, for want of a better term, free-lance PH who had never hunted the two properties we were hunt...he actually carried several maps so he could find his way around.

We saw leopard tracks but despite hanging (and paying for a lot of bait impala) we never had a leopard come to bait and the only sable I saw was a very small herd of cows. We did see what appeared to be a very large kudu at extreme range. It was about 500 yards and uphill...the PH wanted me to take a shot and when I refused he was somewhat miffed. His idea of hunting seemed to be driving around in the vehicle and if we saw something for me to jump out and shoot...which I refused to do. The few times we did try to track something it never came to anything and I had to prod him not to spend 3 or 4 hours in camp during mid-day.

In addition, we spent most of one whole day trying to cut a "road" thru the bush to get to an area where he said there were supposed to be some big sable --- if they were there, all the noise we made certainly gave them advance warning. I spent the day in the vehicle watching him watch the help cut brush. We also wasted time extracting the truck when he tried to cross a little sandy gully ....not just once, but three times and we could have easily avoided the gully. Again most of the day wasted. The final adventure happened when I decided I'd had enough and "suggested" we head back to the main ranch and try our luck there. His truck broke down and we spent the entire night alongside the road that goes from Vic Falls to Buleweyo ..... no food and very little water and after awhile damn little illumination as we ran out of batteries for the flashlights. We then spent the next day getting his truck fixed. Boy was I having a lot of fun. On my 14 day hunt we lost a day of travel going to the "good sable/leopard" area, a day cutting a road, a day digging the truck out, a day driving back to the ranch (with the overnite on the road) and a day getting his truck fixed....5 days lost out of 14.

I did find out some of the reasons for the problems...(1) the Europeans were repeat clients who would shoot anything with a heartbeat no matter what the size and they actually shot a lot of animals and my PH told me the European booking agent kicked back half his fee and (2) the 4-man group in camp before me each shot 2 kudu ranging in size from 50" up to 58"...no wonder we weren't seening any. Finally, I had read quite a bit about how to bait for leopards and my PH didn't seem to be doing it the way I read about so one day while he was napping after lunch I struck up a conversation with his tracker and found out he'd had a scrape with a poorly shot leopard and I got the feeling the way the tracker was talking that he was a bit "leopard-shy". I might also add that owner of the company was 5 for 5 with leopards for clients he guided and that the only two clients who didn't get cats were me and the fellow who came after me ..both guided by the same PH.

I was of course less than happy about the turn of events and in an effort to molify me the owner said I could come back next year at a $50/day discount (like that was going to happen) and the booking agent said while all the things that happened were "unfortunate" the best he could do was not charge me a booking fee if I went back the following year ----- nothing else. They aren't on my Christmas list either. It took a real leap of faith for me to go back to Africa for a second time but I did and had the trip of a lifetime with a different booking agent and different safari company.

Booking Fee? What's a booking fee?
Is that the commission or an additional charge direct to you from the booking agent?

Not hard to imagine why you used someone else the second time. I'm glad that time it worked for you.

Les

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
My 1st trip to Africa was made thru a large well-known booking agent (does't post here)

DBBill

Its a pity you don't name the agent and the outfitter as it does seem you got a raw deal and offering a pathetic discount off the daily rate and a kick back of the booking commission for a future hunt is almost an insult.

If you don't want to post it publicly can you send me a PM. Thanks.

LHowell...every hunting company who uses a booking agent pays that booking agent for his services. For example, if you book a hunt for $400/day the hunting company gets so much and the booking agent gets a commission. I don't know (or care) how much it is as I figure a "good" one is worth the money.

Booking fee? I thought there was no increase in price to use a booking agent? I thought they did it out of the goodness of their heart.
You mean if I book directly with the outfitter/PH I get a cheaper hunt? That can't be true, because thats not what I read here.

TJ --- that's right. If a company uses a booking agent it isn't kosher to cut the cost of the hunt. Booking agents perform a valuable service to both the hunting company and the potential client but you need to remember, they work for the company and NOT the client.

In this respect they are very much like a Real Estate agent. They may show you the house but as they get paid by the seller, their duty is to them and not to you.

DBBill,

I guess we were thinking of the same thing: booking fee = commission. Not an additional fee direct to the hunter.

I don't begrudge the booking agent a commission as they do provide a valuable service. They can insulate the hunter from an unscrupulous outfitters, they can intervene in disputes, and certainly can provide invaluable advice to the hunters - if they will.

I would not hesitate to use the services of any of the several bookung agents we see here on AR. At the same time, however, I will not hesitate to deal directly with outfitters who I am comfortable with or who are recommended to me by someone I trust.

Before this thread degenerates into a murder the booking agent scenario here is a brief synopsis of how I believe most operators work, or should work IMHO .... dont berate me as there are ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS to the rule

BOOKING Consultant / for example myself, Peter Bird
independant home alone: Only books for Balla-Balla Safaris ...

Works for himself and get a small commission from the Ranch owner whom in this case is my brother. NO inflated prices at all, the commission comes off the hunt profit so my brother wears the cost.

BOOKING Agent/Consultant:
Proberbly most of them fall into the work for a number of outfitters category ....

The outfitter would mostly pay them a commission and I would hazard a guess it is either (built into the hunt cost) or the outfitter in some instances will bear the hit as we do at Balla-Balla.

Outfitters: ( Ranch Owners or Concession licences )

Some outfitters will do their own bookings ...

BUT I am of the opinion if they are a good company and (very busy with the hunting) then they dont really have a lot of valuable time to spend consulting and replying to all the hunters enquiries and raft of questions, unless they are a BIG CONCERN with multiple staff numbers.

PH'S: Independant, hunting on other peoples ranches or licenced concession areas ...

Some PH will do their own bookings, outfitting, and guidng the hunt. They are sometime called SUPERMAN and can often suffer burn out trying to be jack of all trades. ( Good Luck to them )

At the end of the day it comes down to whom will do the (best job for you) at a fair price ..

I personally use the analogy that if you try to be a MISER and want to save a penny you can sometimes come unstuck and spend a pound ...

Whem most sensible busy people want to buy a vehicle they DONT go to HENRY FORD they go to a reputable dealer or saleman to get the job done professionally and with minimum hassles, hunting is not a hell of a lot different ..

Toooooooooo many well meaning guys try to be a total DIY specialist, sometimes it comes off BUT what price do you put on your own time in this busy world, unless you are retired and get satisfaction from doing everything yourself

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:
Before this thread degenerates into a murder the booking agent scenario here is a brief synopsis of how I believe most operators work, or should work IMHO .... dont berate me as there are ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS to the rule

BOOKING Consultant / for example myself, Peter Bird
independant home alone: Only books for Balla-Balla Safaris ...

Works for himself and get a small commission from the Ranch owner whom in this case is my brother. NO inflated prices at all, the commission comes off the hunt profit so my brother wears the cost.

BOOKING Agent/Consultant:
Proberbly most of them fall into the work for a number of outfitters category ....

The outfitter would mostly pay them a commission and I would hazard a guess it is either (built into the hunt cost) or the outfitter in some instances will bear the hit as we do at Balla-Balla.

Outfitters: ( Ranch Owners or Concession licences )

Some outfitters will do their own bookings ...

BUT I am of the opinion if they are a good company and (very busy with the hunting) then they dont really have a lot of valuable time to spend consulting and replying to all the hunters enquiries and raft of questions, unless they are a BIG CONCERN with multiple staff numbers.

PH'S: Independant, hunting on other peoples ranches or licenced concession areas ...

Some PH will do their own bookings, outfitting, and guidng the hunt. They are sometime called SUPERMAN and can often suffer burn out trying to be jack of all trades. ( Good Luck to them )

At the end of the day it comes down to whom will do the (best job for you) at a fair price ..

I personally use the analogy that if you try to be a MISER and want to save a penny you can sometimes come unstuck and spend a pound ...

Whem most sensible busy people want to buy a vehicle they DONT go to HENRY FORD they go to a reputable dealer or saleman to get the job done professionally and with minimum hassles, hunting is not a hell of a lot different ..

Toooooooooo many well meaning guys try to be a total DIY specialist, sometimes it comes off BUT what price do you put on your own time in this busy world, unless you are retired and get satisfaction from doing everything yourself

Peter

___________--
Peter,
This thread has hardly degenerated into a murder the booking agent scenario. A poster here got screwed on his 1st hunt because of the PH shifting gears and leaving him cold by going back on his word and this bait and switch scenario by Ph/Outfitters seems to be a common practice - once the Client is there. And, you (as a booking agent) can correct this "on the spot" by??? No? Well, perhaps you could offer to deduct your fee and negotiate a lower day rate for the 'next hunt', same place? Specifically, Peter, what remedy would YOU have put forth for that poster, in his situation, had he called YOU from the site?

On the direct booking Ph/Outfitters you mention; The better ones are most often booked 3 years hence and that sort of speaks for itself (to me, anyhow).

On going direct to HENRY FORD. Try :
www.carsdirect.com or
www.msncarpoint.com
Both of these take about 20 minutes of your time if, like a hunt, you know what you want and are looking for.

I'm not knocking or trying to murder booking agents in any manner. I am saying that agent should or better have as impeccable credentials as does the Ph/Outfitter that he or she represents and when things go bad, which they sometimes do, that agent better step up to the plate.
Dungbeetle

quote:

Originally posted by Dungbeetle:

Peter,

1) A poster here got screwed on his 1st hunt because of the PH shifting gears and leaving him cold by going back on his word and this bait and switch scenario by Ph/Outfitters seems to be a common practice - once the Client is there. And, you (as a booking agent) can correct this "on the spot" by??? No? Well, perhaps you could offer to deduct your fee and negotiate a lower day rate for the 'next hunt', same place? Specifically, Peter, what remedy would YOU have put forth for that poster, in his situation, had he called YOU from the site?

2) On the direct booking Ph/Outfitters you mention; The better ones are most often booked 3 years hence and that sort of speaks for itself (to me, anyhow).

On going direct to HENRY FORD. Try :
www.carsdirect.com or
www.msncarpoint.com
Both of these take about 20 minutes of your time if, like a hunt, you know what you want and are looking for.

I'm not knocking or trying to murder booking agents in any manner. I am saying that agent should or better have as impeccable credentials as does the Ph/Outfitter that he or she represents and when things go bad, which they sometimes do, that agent better step up to the plate.
Dungbeetle

Holy Shit,

That posters scenario sounds like a disaster to put it mildly.

Before I comment I would personally like to ask a few questions FIRST so I have a bit more insight as the non performance is rather scary

a) What year was the hunt
b) Whom is the well know booking agent
c) Whom was the company & the owner
d) Who was the PH

2) Yes I agree with you, those that become well known often do book up early BUT the Million dollar question is the proof is in the eating of the pudding, and no matter whom tells you what and how many referances you get IT seems that untill you go yourself then NO ONE can be sure can we .... Case scenarion 1) is a prime example !!!

3) Yes of cource you can do the HENRY FORD scenario, but remember those that stuff up trying the DIY never tell you about it truthfully as they are tooooo embarrased to say they stuffed up, just like those whom are caught in SCAMS dont like to admit they were fools as well. The only stories you will hear are the success stories.

I'm not saying you cant DIY as a lot of people are trying it, but as I say a lot are getting skinned and you and I dont hear about it ...

Remember on these AR forums we tend to get to the bottom of most issues good or bad and it is not often that the final information is not helpful ...

The only problem with DIY is when it goes wrong whom do you turn to, you have to then LOOK in the mirror and that is the hardest thing to do

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:

quote:

Originally posted by Dungbeetle:

Peter,

1) A poster here got screwed on his 1st hunt because of the PH shifting gears and leaving him cold by going back on his word and this bait and switch scenario by Ph/Outfitters seems to be a common practice - once the Client is there. And, you (as a booking agent) can correct this "on the spot" by??? No? Well, perhaps you could offer to deduct your fee and negotiate a lower day rate for the 'next hunt', same place? Specifically, Peter, what remedy would YOU have put forth for that poster, in his situation, had he called YOU from the site?

2) On the direct booking Ph/Outfitters you mention; The better ones are most often booked 3 years hence and that sort of speaks for itself (to me, anyhow).

On going direct to HENRY FORD. Try :
www.carsdirect.com or
www.msncarpoint.com
Both of these take about 20 minutes of your time if, like a hunt, you know what you want and are looking for.

I'm not knocking or trying to murder booking agents in any manner. I am saying that agent should or better have as impeccable credentials as does the Ph/Outfitter that he or she represents and when things go bad, which they sometimes do, that agent better step up to the plate.
Dungbeetle

Holy Shit,

That posters scenario sounds like a disaster to put it mildly.

Before I comment I would personally like to ask a few questions FIRST so I have a bit more insight as the non performance is rather scary

a) What year was the hunt
b) Whom is the well know booking agent
c) Whom was the company & the owner
d) Who was the PH

2) Yes I agree with you, those that become well known often do book up early BUT the Million dollar question is the proof is in the eating of the pudding, and no matter whom tells you what and how many referances you get IT seems that untill you go yourself then NO ONE can be sure can we .... Case scenarion 1) is a prime example !!!

3) Yes of cource you can do the HENRY FORD scenario, but remember those that stuff up trying the DIY never tell you about it truthfully as they are tooooo embarrased to say they stuffed up, just like those whom are caught in SCAMS dont like to admit they were fools as well. The only stories you will hear are the success stories.

I'm not saying you cant DIY as a lot of people are trying it, but as I say a lot are getting skinned and you and I dont hear about it ...

Remember on these AR forums we tend to get to the bottom of most issues good or bad and it is not often that the final information is not helpful ...

The only problem with DIY is when it goes wrong whom do you turn to, you have to then LOOK in the mirror and that is the hardest thing to do

Peter

_______________

Peter,
Your a.- d. questions would need to be put directly to DB Bill.

Your #2 is exactly what I asked you were you the Agent. You didn't answer and my questions were direct and specific, not rhetorical. Your answers?

Your #3 - boy, ain't that absolute the truth and well spoken! Agree.

Your last statements, yes, lets get to the bottom of it and go back to my questions in the last post. i.e., when using an Agent and things go wrong, you go to the Agent and what does he do for you - there on the spot?

I narrowly missed, last year, a somewhat similar situation as described by DB Bill.
Dungbeetle

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:

The only problem with DIY is when it goes wrong whom do you turn to, you have to then LOOK in the mirror and that is the hardest thing to do

What you do is go on the net, the Hunting Report, all sorts of forums and post the story.

The internet is really good for sorting out the crooks and warning others. Doesn't help you yourself but there is a certain level of satisfaction ....... and it lasts for years and years everytime you get to tell more people again .


The simple solution is for operators to be honest and not post false advertising and if ffffups outside their control happen try to fix it or offer compensation.

I've hunted 3 times in Africa. I had a great hunt with Balla Balla and I've had great hunts with the others Conenraad Vermaak and Dube Safaris. I know several people who have had bad hunts, and all of them were in Zimbabwe or one of the known countries.

I have been in business since dirt was put on the earths surface..I know that if I don't get it right, then I just as well hang it up as this is one of the toughest businesses you can break into....Not many make it and most never even get a foot in the door....Its all about integrity, honesty and producing....

Booking with a legitamate agent gets you the same price as going direct to the outfitter, if not walk away...If you call Pierre today to book a hunt he will simply refer you to me..He does the hunting and I do the booking..It works.

quote:

On the direct booking Ph/Outfitters you mention; The better ones are most often booked 3 years hence and that sort of speaks for itself (to me, anyhow).

Excuse the PUN but as the Dungbeatle does one is pushing SHIT backwards to try to get the perfect solution for ALL on this AR forum ... Some like to use an agent others a consultant, some prefer the direct route to an outfitter or PH and then the good ol DIY ...

I do agree with you to a certain extent, it speaks for itself that those whom are booked up for 2/3 years in advance generally have the ingredients correct ...

BUT as the esteemed Ray Atkinson says ////

Booking with a legitimate agent gets you the same price as going direct to the outfitter, if not walk away ... If you call Pierre today to book a hunt he will simply refer you to me..He does the hunting and I do the booking .. It works.

I arrest my case

Peter

quote:

I arrest my case

There's no perfect solution to this Peter. It's Africa. I asked you simple, straight forward questions that only required simple, straight forward answers. I didn't get them. As you say, we'll close on it.
Dungbeetle

Dungbeetle

I will also close by saying ...

How many times have we heard hunting clients saying, I keep sending the OUTFITTER or PH emails and they dont reply for days weeks or longer ... NOT ALWAYS but often, they are so busy in the bush either organising hunts or guiding the hunt themselves that they dont have time or cant be bothered to reply ...

That is why the vast majority of (successful bookings) are conducted via an agent/consultant IMHO. Those like Ray Atkinson will takwe the worry off a hunters plate and do the donkey work for very little monetary payback.

Basically I cant add any more myself on the subject as at the end of the day the client is KING and the client follows his gut instinct

Peter

Thank you. You did, de facto, answer my questions.
Dungbeetle