I just accompanied a friend on an elephant hunt in Mozambique.

The whole thing turned into a fiasco and the deposit that was sent was basically stolen. The two trophies taken, a croc and a hippo, will probably never arrive.

I would like to find out what the best channels for reporting the parties involved are.

At the moment I don't want to go into details, because the whole things isn't over yet, we still might at least get our trophies back but I don't feel that this kind of business practices should go unpunished.

Any advice?

File a hunt report with The Hunting Report @ www.HuntingReport.com and certainly file one here. If you are looking for legal advice I will defer to the barristers that frequent this Forum but I believe you will have to take action in Moz which could be difficult...

I am sorry about your problems, but please file a report so others may learn from your hunting trip! We need to know who is and who isn't an unscrupulous outfitter.

File a report here and state the facts, nothing but the facts.

Please file a report here so we all know who the bad guys are. Name names, and as stated before, just the facts.

Sorry to hear about this!

AMOS is the Mozambique outfitters association we having the annual AGM meeting on the 25th this month before this we got internal management meetings (I am a member of the board) and more than happy to bring up any complains, PM me for my e mail address and contact details.

The day after our meeting (AMOS) we have the annual hunting season opening meeting from the Government so complains can also be handled from this side.
some rumours about a hunt, on the Chiramba side of the Zambezi perhaps??

Hope that helps.

I am preparing the report, but still waiting to see what the replies from the parties are.

I would not like for them to see this and decide that not to send the trophies, however I think that I willput that in second order because people of this ilk should not be allowed to hold thier licences.

Freischuetz, you have a PM.

Thanks.

long limb - short rope

"Tall" limb and a short rope!

My Experience:

The Hunting Report will pull bad reports if the outfitter leans on them - it happened to me

The Professional Hunting Associations can/will do little if anything- unless there is some sort of balantant, easily proveable violation

Once you post here, prepare to be attacked- as a whiner, prima donna, bad shot, moron, mascara lover, etc. Unless your PH is unknown, there will be people on AR that think they are terriffic and that you are some kind of loser for complaining about them

Good luck-

I've got no fear of any of that - the problems I am talking about are not your typical run of the mill unsatisfied safari customer.

Time will tell. I only want my croc skin, nothing more. If these guys get put through the ringer it will be their own fault.

quote:

Once you post here, prepare to be attacked- as a whiner, prima donna, bad shot, moron, mascara lover, etc. Unless your PH is unknown, there will be people on AR that think they are terriffic and that you are some kind of loser for complaining about them

Good luck-

EXPRESS:
What can you do to make an example... In a word, 'Nothing." Let me explain my opinion--and that's just what it is, my opinion.

I've been doing this Africa thing since 1994. I have only done business with one individual who was 100% honest and put his honor and word above the dollar. A few (both PHs and agents) were rotten to the core and deserve to spend eternity locked in a room with my ex wife. Most, however, are OK but will twist the truth when they can to make money or walk away from the right side of the situation and side with their profits. If a client is angered, there are more on the way so one lost is no big deal. As a former friend and PH said, "We never had it in writing."

No matter what you do it will not have a lasting impact on whom ever you are angry at--no matter how much you feel you are 100% justified. Think about it. We have all seen negative hunt reports (not with SCI however). Have you ever seen much feedback that the report hurt the outfitter, PH, or agent? Put him out of business? You can post here. A couple of months ago there was a big go around with an agent who kept the commission on a 70$K sheep hunt that was not delivered. Once the thread here moved to the second page it was forgotten about by most of us and probably not read by new viewers.

What does the agent or PH do? He moves on as there are countless new hunters coming up. Let me give you an example (forgive my rambling):

A former friend and Zim PH whom I was with on five occasions moves to a new hunt area every year or two, a huge client base was lost in Alaska along with two exclusive agents and many hunters dedicated to hunting just with him. As a mate of his told me in Zim, "---is friendly with everyone but friends with no one." He still hunts, is doing well and moves on. I sent him a long letter outlining my problems with past hunts. He declined to reply--and called to tell me so. The same as it most likely will be with the fella you write of--he'll just move on.

I believe the African Hunter magazine will publish an article I wrote entitled, "Safari Gone Wrong" in the near future that will give additional details of my experiences. All of the agents, PHs (save one), and taxidermists are still going strong--with new clients.

I wish you luck.
Cal

Cal,
Very well said and reasoned, There is very little you / we can do to affect their future client base, income. AR loyalist don't realize how little impact (read none) this forum has. Its fun and informative, but has such a small percentage of the actual hunting demographic that it does not matter.

I've said this several times, I was on my 16th or 17th Safari in Zambia sharing a concession with Garby and had never even heard of it till he told me about it.

Vote with your wallet, don't treat these guys like rockstars, make them earn your friendship not the other way round. Don't let them come to your home and "mooch" off your good nature. trust me it's mostly a one way street. The free enterprise system only works if YOU let it.

Steve

(Cal, hope your well)

Steve:
Thanks for the kind words. I am well, shooting the big rifles daily (almost) and looking forward to our Australia trip in 2012. Which double are you bringing down under?
Cheers to you and regards to your wife and little boy.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
There is very little you / we can do to affect their future client base, income. AR loyalist don't realize how little impact (read none) this forum has.

Obviously one negative post is not going to ruin an outfitter, but it can save a few clients and possibly force the outfitter to clean-up their act.

There are two sides to every story and you are presumed innocent until proven guilty (except on the internet).



I wonder what it would be like to name and shame bad clients ? I'm sure it happens in some circles of the industry, but the clients no doubt move on too.



cal pappas, you are correst.

contact Safari Club International if they are a memeber and they are not above board they my be able to help?

quote:

Originally posted by zhaba:
contact Safari Club International if they are a memeber and they are not above board they my be able to help?

SCI is the last orgenization I would get involved in this.

From what we have seen so far, they are actively support shady operators!

Dear Express

Sorry to hear.

Can you pleas PM me the names so I do not book them for next years hunt.

Regards Mark

Dear Express

Sorry to hear.

Can you please PM me the names so I do not book them for next years hunt.

Regards Mark

quote:

Obviously one negative post is not going to ruin an outfitter, but it can save a few clients and possibly force the outfitter to clean-up their act.

I am on the same track as Jason. I agree about the impact AR has, very little in the whole of the hunting community, but if I can help steer my friends and acquaintances here on AR away from a bad outfitter I feel like I have contributed to the betterment of the sport.

As Ross said above, post a hunt report, post just the facts, let the buyer beware!

If we keep silent, we stay complicit! And that is what some bad outfitters are counting on!

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
File a hunt report with The Hunting Report @ www.HuntingReport.com and certainly file one here. If you are looking for legal advice I will defer to the barristers that frequent this Forum but I believe you will have to take action in Moz which could be difficult...

I am sorry about your problems, but please file a report so others may learn from your hunting trip! We need to know who is and who isn't an unscrupulous outfitter.

I must disagree here. The Hunting Report is not an objective source of information. Negative reports may or may not see the light. I cancelled my subscription over how they handled the Usangu Safaris situation. They sat on the information for two years about the ripoffs etc. Finally when enough people bitched, they responded by putting up a forum and never took a position at all. Barbara Crown is the editor now but she was complicit in the cover up as well.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Steve:
Thanks for the kind words. I am well, shooting the big rifles daily (almost) and looking forward to our Australia trip in 2012. Which double are you bringing down under?
Cheers to you and regards to your wife and little boy.
Cal

Cal,

I am bringing my (compared to your cannon)little Armeria De Madrid .500, Scottyboy is going to use my Osborne 450 400 3-1/4.

Thanks for the well wish's, haulin the entire gang to Zambia in 3 weeks. Lori is actually hunting, I am not. (her first)

Take care,

Steve

I for one would like to know the names and details. It may be true that AR only reaches a small percentage of hunters, but it is an important percentage. Like Cameronaussie, I have to watch the rands and cents (nickles and dimes?) to persue my passion.I couldn't afford a disaster hunt that could have been avoided. There are too many good outfits to book with a bad one. Most on AR can make their own minds up if presented with the facts. Save another AR member from landing up in the same boat. If the circumstances were unusual (you are 80 years old and the PH frog marched you up a mountain)then tell everyone. If it was a standard safari, then state the facts. Express, I'm sure that when you book a future safari, you would also like to rely on feedback from AR members who post on this site. I used AR hunting reports to help select the outfit for my upcoming DG trip.
JCHB

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
There are two sides to every story and you are presumed innocent until proven guilty (except on the internet).



I wonder what it would be like to name and shame bad clients ? I'm sure it happens in some circles of the industry, but the clients no doubt move on too.



cal pappas, you are correst.

Code4,

But they do....(talk about bad clients)I was sitting having lunch in Safari camp one day on the Luangwa river, Dustin Neal and an Italian PH named Manlio something came in to visit after being fired by Fico Vidale.

They sat there for hours talking about what a bunch of douches most clients are, I got a bit pissed and engaged, You Fu*&%s live the life you do because of us douches. Get over it.

We as international sport hunters need to keep everything in its proper perspective, They are being paid to be your friend for 14 days or whatever. Yes, some become friends. I have only made, really one I could count on as a real friend the rest are no more or less important in my life than the guy that does my taxidermy or fix's my bicycles.

We tend to get a bit of hero worship and look up to them and overlook their "issues". Try and keep everything in perspective.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
There are two sides to every story and you are presumed innocent until proven guilty (except on the internet).



I wonder what it would be like to name and shame bad clients ? I'm sure it happens in some circles of the industry, but the clients no doubt move on too.



cal pappas, you are correst.

Code4,

But they do....(talk about bad clients)I was sitting having lunch in Safari camp one day on the Luangwa river, Dustin Neal and an Italian PH named Manlio something came in to visit after being fired by Fico Vidale.

They sat there for hours talking about what a bunch of douches most clients are, I got a bit pissed and engaged, You Fu*&%s live the life you do because of us douches. Get over it.

We as international sport hunters need to keep everything in its proper perspective, They are being paid to be your friend for 14 days or whatever. Yes, some become friends. I have only made, really one I could count on as a real friend the rest are no more or less important in my life than the guy that does my taxidermy or fix's my bicycles.

We tend to get a bit of hero worship and look up to them and overlook their "issues". Try and keep everything in perspective.

Steve

Bingo,

That post ^^is right on the money! These guys aren't your friends any longer than the money lasts.

quote:

There are two sides to every story and you are presumed innocent until proven guilty (except on the internet).

Wrong, there are three sides to every story..your side, my side and the truth. It is only your ability to provide irrefutable evidence in support of your specific case that moves the ball of judgement to one side of the court or the other.



In any case, the best advice so far is dogcat's "File a report here and state the facts, nothing but the facts."

Just a thought.....

Those stating that a slating on this forum has limited impact are discounting one BIG point.

The power of Google.

Nowadays, once it is on the internet, there it stays.

Anyone booking a hunt without at least running the Safari Company's name through an internet search, reaps what they sow...

Rgds

Ian

quote:

Originally posted by IanF:
Just a thought.....

Those stating that a slating on this forum has limited impact are discounting one BIG point.

The power of Google.

Nowadays, once it is on the internet, there it stays.

Anyone booking a hunt without at least running the Safari Company's name through an internet search, reaps what they sow...

Rgds

Ian

Could not agree more! The internet has changed the game for consumers, which hunters are.

African hunting is expensive and one must like it a lot to put up with the cost and inconvenience.

Such people participate in sites like this. Such people will also use the internet to research hunting products and services.

Via the internet, consumers have not only exposure, but access to products and services they would never have had.

This is expecially true as regards hunting operators. In the past one would have to rely on word of mouth from friends or advertising or the recommendation of a booking agent. Now we have direct access to thousands of other consumers. Bad outfitters can no longer operate in anonymity. One can check out others' experiences with particular products before committing money.

The purveyors of good services and products may rejoice at this. They will get free widespread exposure. I, for example, am booked on a 3 week Tanzanian safari this year with an outfitter I had never heard of until visiting AR. Multiple positive reports from people who appeared credible had more influence with me than any booking agent or advertisement. They were enthusiastic enough to go to the inconvenicence of posting reports.

A single bad report from a client will not put an outfitter out of business. A single positive report will not keep them in business. If an outfitter is bad and has screwed you, chances are he's screwed others. Multiple negative reports will give pause to others.

An objective, well written report, positive or negative, will have more effect than a lot of people realize.

Ok here is the situation, I am talking to the concession manager who is the one that must do the paperwork for export and he say he will not let us down.
The other outfit was basically using his camp/land vehicles for the hunt. They were two PHs one of which never actually left camp and was not in physical shape to do so.
Then there was another PH who had acted as the agent for the hunt.
The three are friends.

I was thinking of the hunt report, but the problem is these guys are a new outfit, they are unknown - I think we may have been their second or possibly first hunt. Then there is the concession manager, who must have been around for a while but I don't think he sees many clients. What I need to do is get the story out to the Portuguese hunters who might be their main client base.

Just so that people are clear here on what I am talking about, I will put up the essence of the problem(s):

The real complaints;
Our licenses were never actually issued, so we were hunting without.
They were continually fighting in camp, trying to drag us into their matters of who was ripping who off. One of these “PHs” would get blind drunk, become aggressive and yell late into the night, trying to provoke fights, smoking marijuana. He finished all the beer in camp, (leaving us without any) which we had specifically asked (and paid) for. This guy told us he was an ex heroin addict, had been in jail. Why you would brag about such things is beyond me.
One day they were shooting in camp, THROUGH camp to check a rifle that had no front sight...
I got back to camp late twice and there was no food there for me.
If you asked for something to eat or drink it would not come unless you repeated it several times.
Fridge was a filthy slurry filled stink box of disease. Kitchen hygiene 0.
My croc was left out for a full day without being skinned even though I told them it would spoil, but they were waiting for more money before they were going to do anything about it.
I was continually badgered and leaned on for more money, and was even asked for a “loan” that I was promised would be returned (for $4800USD) even though the deposit was more than enough to cover two unsuccessful hunts, the contracts stated we would be refunded monies in the event of an unsuccessful hunt. No money was refunded, and it became a like a tag team battle between the 4 of them to get more money, each claiming the other had ripped him off so he needed more money. The guy who wanted me to loan him money claimed that if I didn’t give it to him, a fight would break out between the PHs and it would quickly turn to a gunfight – something between a threat and psychological terrorism?
Obviously I could see that it was all charades and that although they were genuinely angry at each other for their respective roles in their failure, they would also go back to fishing together afterwards.
All of this leaning and badgering for more money was going on because the elephant was not shot, and they knew it was dead. With no plan B and no further payment, they found themselves with less money to split than they had originally counted on.

Oh, but the best part is, that the elephant my friend was supposed to hunt, was shot, wounded and died as a result of the concession manager going to check a village getting raided. He says he had no idea there were clients on their way for it.

To be fair;
As for the actual hunting, two guys of the three who were actually working as PHs did work hard. No complaints on their work in the field. I didn't get a hippo with the bow, it really is a tough animal to find out in the open but I shot a croc. My friend shot a hippo.

Believe me, I am not the whining client type. I have been running a hunting operation and guiding for the past 13 years, and I take the good with the bad, but I am not going to let anyone steal from me.
Paying more than agreed upon for a hunt? Come on, anyone who has been around knows that is bound to happen, especially if you have fun.
But paying significantly more and not getting your trophies home is where I have to draw the line.

What are their names my friend..

Express,

If even 50% of what you said is true (and I am not questioning the veracity of the statements themselves, merely setting up a relative comparison to normal) you have a very legitimate complaint and one (given your first complaint) that could end up nasty for the PH's.

While you may run risks naming them, in due course it may be helpful for those of us wishing to avoid these types of operators.

Baxter I understand and agree with what you say. Which is why for the moment I do not want to publicly name them.
Of the four people involved, I only really consider one a true crook, the others are just desparate for money and found themselves in a bad sitation that led them to behave inappropirately and have varying levels of professionalism.
For the moment I just want to get the croc and hippo trophies. The two PHs that took us into into the field did their best while hunting.

If anyone wants details I can, and already have given the names to people who have sent me PMs with more details on the story.

quote:

Originally posted by EXPRESS:
The real complaints;
Our licenses were never actually issued, so we were hunting without.

Express, despite the other issues, could this be your real problem with getting your trophies back? If licenses were never bought, perhaps they never intended to pay the Govt trophy fees either? I would assume without having a legit license, it would be difficult for them to pay the govt trophy fees, and be issued official export permits as well?

I've been wondering about that myself and have asked to see copies of whatever documents they have for the trophies.

I am just shocked.... what an incredible story....

Hey - just wondering - when you left did any of them consider that you still owed them money?? I think you have only a very small chance of getting your trophies. Hate to say it but you will be lucky if your crocodile is still good anyhow I would think??

I don't think they they ever actually believed we owed them any money, we had THEIR contracts stating THEY owed US money.

They were desperate because they were out by about $15,000 because they elephant was not shot.

They were just trying to get more.
There's no harm in trying, is there? ;-)

Hmmm.. You should have let it slip to the others that you loaned/gifted the drugie $15K and take cover as the gun fight ensued.. Then drive their vehicle back into town and report they all went mad and shot each other!

I was thinking the same thing Mike - I would have had trouble not feeding them to the crocodiles...

I feel really sorry for you EXPRESS - a friend/client of mine had something similar happen to him in Moz and then another slightly screwed-up hunt in Zambia and now he never wants to go back to Africa, he has serious trust issues. I introduced him to some quality guys since but he just cant get over it. He is a very generous guy as it sounds like you are too and I think it is the generous, forgiving types who get stiffed the worst.

Cheers all

Express
I have seen a few negative reports here on AR turn into real dust-ups. Please understand that I am playing the devil's advocate and only pointing out a few points that you will get nailed on if the "PHs" come on AR to post a rebuttal.

quote:

Originally posted by EXPRESS:
They were two PHs one of which never actually left camp and was not in physical shape to do so.
Then there was another PH who had acted as the agent for the hunt.
The three are friends
----------------------------------------------
One of these “PHs” would get blind drunk, become aggressive and yell late into the night, trying to provoke fights, smoking marijuana. He finished all the beer in camp, (leaving us without any) which we had specifically asked (and paid) for. This guy told us he was an ex heroin addict, had been in jail. Why you would brag about such things is beyond me.
----------------------------------------------
To be fair;
As for the actual hunting, two guys of the three who were actually working as PHs did work hard. No complaints on their work in the field. I didn't get a hippo with the bow, it really is a tough animal to find out in the open but I shot a croc. My friend shot a hippo.

It sounds like there were two hard working PHs and one camp manager who had some "issues". The fact that the camp manager had drug and alcohol issues(and held a PH license) are not really central to the complaint. I point this out because mentioning these seems to cloud the issue.

I am assuming the "PH" who got drunk and high and started fights, was in fact the guy acting as the camp manager. Continuing to call him "one of the PHs" serves to make it look like you are trying to put a spin on things.

A drunk, high, asshole PH is really, really bad and would ruin any hunt.

A drunk, high, asshole camp-manager is an inconvenience.

quote:

Originally posted by EXPRESS:
Oh, but the best part is, that the elephant my friend was supposed to hunt, was shot, wounded and died as a result of the concession manager going to check a village getting raided. He says he had no idea there were clients on their way for it.

The first question: if it was "wounded", how in the heck do you know that it died? You need to be specific about what you were told by the concession manager(or whomever).

Please take this as constructive criticism.

I would really like for you to name the guys who ripped you off.