It is my understanding that if you are bitten by a black mamba and not treated with antivenin, you will likely die within an hour. Cobras aren't much better.

Many (most?) safaris are more than an hour from medical attention. Our camp in Tanzania was at least a half day from Dars assuming getting the plane to camp and then flying back.

My question: How common is it for an outfitter to maintain antivenin in camp when in snake country (all of southern Africa?) and more than an hour from medical attention?

I would guesstimate that little less than 50% do keep antivenom. There are complications with doing so:
1- correct storage
2- expiry of the antivenom
3- Its use is useless and dangerous unless one is 100% sure of which snake caused the bite in the first place.
4- Administering the correct dosage should be done by a trained person.

All snake bite treatment literature I've read state the same thing; Take the patient to the nearest hospital and let the doctor administer the anti-venom in a controlled environment.

Conversation between client and PH

"How will I know if you see a Black Mamba?"

"When I knock you down getting out of the way."

"Do you have any antivenom?"

"Yes, I have lots."

"Where is it if I need it?"

"Back in the camp."

"Why back in the camp?"

"It doesn't work anyway."

/

You've had perfect answers, but I'll add that recent years have seen some research into using electric shock as a treatment. In the old days some people used to get the patient back to the Landrover, pull an HT lead and place it near the site of the wound and then turn the engine over. More recently, they have tried to use the electric shock self protection thingies, which those who have used it claim it works.

The idea is that the venom consists of chains of protein and electric shock breaks up those chains........ However, I've had no personal experience of whether it works or not.

Bwanamich,

Would you think that a bite (full/not dry) from a mamba in the field four hours from a hospital is a death sentence?

Thanks Alf! Great information. I still must conclude a bite in the field from a mamba, spitting cobra etc. two hours from medical aid is a death sentence.

Mich and ALF have the right answers for you...

As they mentioned, most kits have hopelessly too little in them anyway....
The use therefo has become phased out as the first line of attack by untrained people.

Spitting cobra bites...others may have different experiences but I have yet to get one to readily bite a prop. In 'my youth' (he he) my mate and I would get hold of them when we worked around Hoedspruit and try do motor-drive sequences to photo graph the spitting motion. This was achieved by the antogonist in long clothes, wrap around glasses behind a sheet of plexi-glass pissing it off and the photographer off to the side doing his art....
Spit they do! and readily, but bite....they seem reluctant, they will bite, but less so that Egytian cobras (N. haja). Thats my experience anyway, and you see them quite often in warm regions and they are always quite shy (like most snakes). I put my hand right in front of ones head by accident while looking for tools in the workshop once...the moral is, keep a clean orderly workshop! Yes, I shat myself!

One 'zoological correction' ALF (pendatic I know!)

quote:

The back fanged snakes 45 species only 2 are venomous.

More backfanged Colubridae are venemous, only 2 are lethally venemous, as you rightly said. Genus Psammophylax, Psammophis et al (the sand and grass snakes, skaapstekers etc are all venemous)

Cheers

Russell,

The answers above help explain the comical reactions we got in camp about our snake bite kits and the comments like, "that is good that you brought the kit, it will keep you entertained while you slip into a coma."

I think I'll use Shakari's recommendation if it comes to that since the antivenins aren't the answer. We'll just shock the sh_t out of the poor bastard until he expires.

The best way to treat snake bites is with first aid and then get to a doctor asap. With a black mamba which has neurotoxic venom your heart will stop as well as your lungs. However if someone is able to administer proper cpr you will make it.

Very important and not easy but you need to stay calm with any snake bite so that you dont go into shock.

Very important and not easy but you need to stay calm with any snake bite so that you dont go into shock.[/QUOTE]

Judging by the reactions people I've seen at simply seeing a Mamba I can't conceive of anyone being calm!

I have read the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters class outline for snake bite treatment in the field. It has one sentence. And I quote, "Have the client sign his travelers checks."

Every safari camp should have a heart/lung bypass machine , reportably if you are bitten by a neurotoxic snake you will survive if hooked up and kept alive until the venom wears out.

I saw that on TV somewhere... (disney channel?)

Anyway, it only took a matter of hours or a day, something like that and the venom "wore out" and the body returned to normal function with no after affects.

Cool!

When I asked the PH in Tz about snakebites he said a new kit had just been sent to camp.

It came in a sealed plastic tub, bright orange and contained the following items........

1. A 2 ounce bottle of 100 year old brandy.

2. A S&W 38 special revolver and one bullet.

He said it would work as well as any...................JJ

Most snake venom is transported through the body's limph system, the recomended way, is to wrap the affected limb tightly with a bandage. This will slow down the flow of the limph fluid and slowing the spreading of the venom.

With neoro-toxic snakes the correct use of a torniquette is still the best. A rubber band 40 mm wide and 2 meters long must be tightly wrapped around the limb on the heart side of the wound. Make sure that no pulse can be felt. The tourniquette must be released every 30 minutes for 1 - 2 minutes and then be re-wrapped. It is not recomended to use it for longer than 3 hours.

When a life is in danger it can save it

Anti-venom very often cause a allergic reaction. When it is available it is a good practice to inject the person first with an antihistimine to prevent the alergic reaction.

I was bitten by a copperhead when I was 6 (in NY) and so I asked that exact question of my own PH in Zimbabwe. He said I would probably go into cardiac arrest within 20 minutes from a mamba or puff adder bite (cobras were apparently fairly rare in the area) - and we would be a long ways from camp anyway. So why bother? (I hasten to say that my PH was a great guy with a "gallows" sense of humor. He did say pretty much what I read here - that it's better that a doctor or trained personnel administer antivenin. He told me that he had never had a client who was snakebit. I gather from what I have read in this forum that apparently that's pretty much the experience.

How many mambas have you guys actually seen? I have only seen one in 12 safaris.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
How many mambas have you guys actually seen? I have only seen one in 12 safaris.

I have seen at least one black mamba on almost every safari, as well as other snakes. I cannot remember going on a hunt without seeing a few snakes.

And as has already been mentioned here, the PH i have hunted with don't too much faith in anti-venom medicine anyway.

I suppose one should just chalk it up to bad luck if one gets bitten.

quote:

I suppose one should just chalk it up to bad luck if one gets bitten.

REAL BAD luck.

well hell guys - i for one wouldn't be in a camp without a sufficient supply of snake bite medicine

When I asked my PH about the Black Mamba bite, he said there is not much to be done. So I asked again and he told me "If you are bitten by the Mamba you must run as fast as you can to the nearest shade tree , then lay your body flat and as straight as possible" I asked if this would perhaps slow the reaction of the venom. He says "no , but it will be much easier to put you in the coffin"

I think the best antivenom is simply prevention. If you see the snake, just avoid him. He can't eat you so it's not like he is going to actively seek you out. I thought I heard though that the black mamba is also called a "two-step snake." I guess if your unlucky enough to get bit by one the best thing to do is stick your head between your legs and kiss your butt goodbye.

Hunter gets bitten on the "dick" by a mamba.PH immediately calls for medical help.

PH. "Doctor what should I do?"
Doctor."You must suck the poison from the
wound as soon as possible otherwise
the patient will certainly die."
PH returns to the hunter who is lying under a tree.
Hunter."What did the doctor say?"
PH. "He said that you are going to die!"

The April/May Sports Afield has an article about a PH in RSA bitten by a Mamba. He survived even after a 4 hour ride tothe hospitol.

His name is Paul Stones.

Maybe he didn't get a full load of venom.???????

Most doctors shudder at the prospect of a field application of anti venin. As was said earlier, you have to know the exact type of snake. And the anti vanin must be properly maintained and has a fairly quick expiration date.

And since it is a serum derived from animals, there is a decent chance of a reaction. A hospital can treat the reaction by various means not available in the field. The "cure" can be as fatal as the bite.

Wasn't there something published recently on the use of injectable vitamin C? If I recall correctly, it was a veterniary article touting its use for snake bites in dogs. Wonder if this would work in humans?

Then there is the electric shock "cure". Supposidley, the current somehow makes the venom less toxic. What I have read on this from the medical community states that it is not recommended and is a bunch of BS, but hey, it's better than nothing.

Of course, there is the fabled whiskey cure. No scientific evidence that it works, but if you about to cash in your chips, why not try it?

Anyone heard of any other alternative remedies?

My PH stated as before mentioned =start signing your traveler checks as fast as possible because you will be dead in 20 minutes. I was told by my doctor that I could not leave Springfield, Mo because of medical attention. You might be dead in 3 weeks. My attitude was I'll die hunting buffalo and sitting around for it to happen. Lucky for me he was wrong 12 years ago. Like Willie Nelson--lots more old drunks that old docs.

I once had a little dachsund/jack russell cross dog that was bit by a snake (probably a spitting cobra as there are tons around my place) in the neck and head. Fully expecting it to die, I took it to the vet who proceeded to electrocute him with one of those self defense shockers. The poor dog was screaming in pain while we shocked him 3 or 4 times in the affected area. 3 hours later he was jumping around wagging his tail as if nothing happened with hardly any sign of injury.....

If shit hit the fan with a mamba, and I can't get to a doctor/hospital in time, I'm willing to try the electro-shock therapy

If you are more than a hour from a hospital and are envenomated by a Mamba, Who gives a Shit if you might have a reaction from the antivenom. Your dead with out it and you might die with it. You have nothing to loose by trying. I personaly plan on buying my own antivenomen, cortisone, benadryl, Epi pens and syringes. Put them in a small pack and have one Safari boys carry it.

I was told that Helicopter rescue is available in most of SA. Having a radio or sat phone with you in the field might be a good idea.

DR B

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
The best way to treat snake bites is with first aid and then get to a doctor asap. With a black mamba which has neurotoxic venom your heart will stop as well as your lungs. However if someone is able to administer proper cpr you will make it.

Very important and not easy but you need to stay calm with any snake bite so that you dont go into shock.

I have always been afraid of snakes, and that was one of the toughest things talking against going to Africa the first time.

In the field I have had a couple of close envounters with snakes; Horn Adder 2 meters away, Python 1 meter away and a Black Mamba only 1/2 meter away (the last one together with Safari-Hunt) and everytime I have to my surprise been very calm.

"Black mamba" is that like "Black Death" too, lots of stories of how deadly and dangerous they are? To build up the suspense and danger factor of an African safari?

I live and work with snakes nearby on a daily basis.

I am also sh*t scared of them and jump twelve feet into the air when I see one.

These are usually brown snakes, one of the four most deadly snakes in the world. Actually most of the top ten are all in Australia.

MOST PEOPLE GET BITTEN BY SNAKES TRYING TO KILL THEM!!!

A snake can strike about 2/3rds of its body length. It needs a long stick. A rifle or shotgun is better.

If you get bitten, trying to bite it back is not a good idea. One NT Aussie guy tried this and ended up being bitten about 21 times. I don't remember if he survived. He was "fuelled up" at the time.

Also they move very quickly and if moving could be in a very different location frin where you saw it. The last one I saw was in my front house garden within a foot of my legs and slithering towards me. It turned and fled. I got a shotgun. In the meantime of getting the shotgun my father saw it a good 50 metres away.

They will usually flee and avoid humans.

During mating season a lot of snake species become more aggressive. However usually they avoid humans and flee.

When getting out of your bed in the mornings in huts or tents in Africa which can not be fully closed properly I look under the bed and on the floor before putting my feet down. When I remember to do so, so usually don't.

If walking in high grass make lots of noise and especially stomp your feet. The snakes will pick up the vibrations and usually move off or be alert to you and "hide". VERY hard to do this when stalking. A "walking" stick prodded around in front can help.

Avoid high grass when you can help it.

Let one or two other people walk first in the line.

Wear boots, and gaiters if you think they are necessary. Long pants as well. A strike may only hit a flap of fabric and not your flesh or not as deep if it gets through. My GSP as a pup was struck full on the shoulder by a brown and it never got the fangs in. Very lucky dog on more than one occasion.

When you look for them when walking in the grass it never works and you only see when your foot is a foot of two beside them.

If you run over one on the road, be careful as snakes can be whipped up or slide up into the engine area. I had one do this to my car last month. I could not find it in the engine area. Obviously it is unwise to stick your head in to look. And then left it later for the night so it would leave voluntarily. I know of one example where the snake stayed in some crevice for hours and many hundreds of kilometres and someone found it and pulled it out.

To be honest I don't worry much about snakes in Africa. Only seen a couple.

Hunting in Oz, I have seen Taipan's buffalo hunting in fact it slithered right past us when we were butchering a young buffalo. Death Adders near the Southern Coasts when fishing or at the beach in the dunes. Brown snakes nearly everywhere. I had one as a pet for a while which I caught on my back verandah. The closest I have been to one is falling on top of one so I was lying fully on top of it and my hand on its "neck". Red bellied black snakes near home when shooting rabbits. Never seen a non-poisonous snake yet except in cages.

But "touch wood" I have never been bitten by one and 99.99% of people aren't.

Immobilisation of the wound with bandages. Don't panic. Try to avoid movement. Keep your heart rate as low as possible. Do not wash the wound. If the snake can not be identified in "real" hospitals they can take a swab of the wound for analysis to determine which snake did the biting.

I don't know anyone who has anti-venin in Australia except hospitals, surgeries etc. One of the Southern Hemisphere's major laboratories for the production of anti-venin is right in my home area.

Have fun on your African safaris!

Snakes are evil things.

Yep, more deadly species of snake in Australia than anywhere else in the world. Most people don't know that.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter Formerly Known As Texas Hunter:
Yep, more deadly species of snake in Australia than anywhere else in the world. Most people don't know that.

And people wonder why I put up with the cold in Alaska. No creepy-crawlies......they scare me more than bears!

Yeah, but I once signed a waiver of liability form before going on a 3 hour glacier trekking trip that acknowledged that, should I be bitten by a snake on the glacier, it was my problem and not the guide company's.

Lawyers . . .