I'd like to mention that the fees are payable upon arrival (as you deboard).

So even if you ask for thier help and they aren't there, then what are you out? I plan on bringing the SAP form filled out (so that the clerk can round file it) in any case.

-Steve

I am sure that if you pay the advance money, AIR 2000 will fill the forms out for you, but there is NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT TO OBTAIN FIREARMS IMPORT PERMITS IN ADVANCE. NONE.

All you require is US form 4457 (or other licence/proof of ownership if you are originating elsewhere), and your outfitter's name, physical address, and telephone number to prove that you are there on a bona fide hunting trip.

One change that is being enforced is the weird requirement that you have 3 blank pages in your passport upon entry. If not, you are subject to a major fine and, in at least one case, this was doubled by an entrepreneurial customs officer who pocketed the difference.

Air2000 has met people at JNB but they are doing so without official sanction, bending their Lanseria permit, according to my source. In order to enter the restricted area to meet people, you have to have an official permit.

I have confirmed the firearms angle by talking with the SAP themselves. My source is well known to members of this forum, but asked not to be named publicly. This person does not solicit advance payments for firearms paperwork.

Of course, if you wish to pay someone to fill a form out for you, go ahead. This does not, however, mean that you will bypass the SAP. They still want to see the firearms and check the serial numbers, and they will still issue you with a temporary licence.

Terry, with all due respect, you entered SA before June 1 when the new rule regarding advance permitting was supposed to take effect, so even if the new rule is a reality, you were not subject to it. Did the "nice folks" tell you that, or did they just take your money and smile?

Russ, how familiar are you with the services Air2000 provides and for what cost?

I've used them and have nothing but good things to say.

They may or may not be violating some rule by doing a meet and greet. Frankly it doesn't concern me and I don't know why it is of such great concern to you either?

Russ,



I think you might want to back off a bit as you are badmouthing a service that many including myself have used and been very happy with. You seem to accuseing them of not being able to do things that they neither claim to be neccessary or mandatory. Neither do they "solicit advance payments". They simply provide a convenience that is taken care of up front and paid for after they have you through arrivals.



Un-named sources are bullshit by any other name. If you have a beef make it public but don't try to convince people like me that they are unhappy or have been duped, I used their service and will again. Frankly the only person who I would have no dealings with is someone who badmouths other people on the internet by quoting "unnamed sources". That some behavior for a person who uses Integrity as part of his business logo.

I have not used them personally, but we were all told, on this forum, that after June 1, hunters had to get their firearms permits 21 days in advance, and that Air2000 was the solution (no alternatives were mentioned to my knowledge). The charge was $70.

I was dubious, noting from their website that Air2000 is a UK-based charter company. Hell, they aren't even local.

I thought the spirit of this forum was to share information with others and to sort out the BS from the real deal. That's why I posted what I believe to be the real situation. I personally don't offer any travel-related service, I am not in the travel business. I am in the business of booking Safaris, and I make it my business to personally check out my PH's and Outfitters, before taking my client's deposit.

On the strength of the misleading posts on this forum some months back, I started telling my clients to work with Air2000. When I got to JNB in early May and found out that 'it ain't so', confirmed by the SAP, I was annoyed to say the least and I immediately told my clients that there was no need to spend the money. In that same spirit, I am telling the rest of you the same thing.

It rubs me up the wrong way to see fellow hunters taken by such schemes. Sorry, that apparently includes some of the experienced hands on this forum.

Now that it's June 3, I would like to hear from anyone arriving at JNB without an advance firearms permit that they were not allowed to bring their firearms into SA.

I think that ought to settle this forever.

Kevin,

"You seem to accuseing them of not being able to do things that they neither claim to be neccessary or mandatory"

While AIR2000 did not, to my knowledge, post the message stating that firearms permits had to be arranged 21 days in advance, they were presented by the poster as being the solution to that problem. So yes, I am saying that there was a claim, on behalf of AIR2000, that they would provide a service that was necessary and mandatory.

I was not aware, until now, that the payment was only made after the service was rendered. So I stand corrected regarding the advance payment.

Anyone who wishes to use their services, or has used their services and wishes to do so in future, is welcome. Don't let me stand in your way. Just be aware that there is no regulation requiring advance permitting of firearms, as stated on this forum by people advocating the use of AIR2000. All you are paying for, then, is someone holding a placard with your name on it who will chaperone you through customs and perhaps take you to your hotel (and I'm not sure whether they do that).

We'll let the facts, not Kevin, be the judge of my integrity. C'mon, guys, how many of you have been turned away after June 1 because you didn't use AIR2000 (or some other service) to arrange your firearms importation 21 days in advance?

And Kevin, if the facts prove me right and if you have any integrity, I expect an apology on the forum from you for impugning my integrity.

I'm sure we can put this to bed Russ, but saying that because someone unaffiliated with Air2000 offerred the name( of a service as a solution to a problem that may or may not have existed )is a claim BY Air2000 that their service is neccessary and mandatory is a big reach and in fact false.

If I say that Russ can fly like a bird, can someone take you to task here when in fact you can't. Of course not, you didn't claim to! Neither did Air2000.

Russ, please provide a link to the thread mentioned. I recall a few threads about Air2000, but I don't recall any that stated that permits needed to be aquired in advance and Air2000 was the answer.

I do recall that last year SAP's was "recommending" that you apply in advance. I also remember myself getting in line, having a SAPS guy come out, take one copy of the paper work Air2000 had, sign another copy for me and I was off. This is unlike other years where they don't take the 311 and copy everything you wrote over to another book.

I have still not heard a "solid" proof to warrent bashing them. If you had your own personal experience then have at it, but going off hear say and interpretation of previous threads is questionable.

Terry makes the trip every year and if he used Air2000 this year and was happy with them, that is good enough for me.

The CURRENT situation IS as follows;

when the final draft of the new act was first published they had a requirement for 21 days advance notice. This has now been cancelled and you can apply on arrival as per the old act. SAP 311 will still be required until further notice. (probably waiting for new forms)

The only time you NEED to apply 21 days in advance is if you wish to bring in a semi auto shotgun.......although they may grant permission for this, it is unlikely. Hence the 21 days advance notice.

Air 2000 are a Lanseria based charter company who have permission to assist in firearm import at JIA. Are they necessary?......no, not really, but using their services will make sure you don't have to join the queue in the baggage hall and their service does speed things up considerably. So is it a good idea to pay a few bucks for that service? Well, that's up to you, but if I'd spent the last umpteen hours in an aeroplane itching to get to Africa I sure as hell would be more than happy to pay that amount to speed things up a little.

In transfer permits: I haven't spoken to Insp Conroy for a week or so, but the last time I did he told me that they have been told verbally that they are no longer going to be needed, but they have yet to be told in writing. Until he had it in writing his intention is to enforce the in transit permit from July 1st which is when the new act comes into force.

I've just tried to call him, but had no luck, I'll call him tomorrow and get an update and post the news then.

Thanks Steve. Very well said.

Wow look what I started. I contacted Air 2000 after reading the posts relating to the in-transit permit and 21 day advance notice. I honestly can't recall who posted those threads. Before contacting Air 2000 I spoke directly with my PH,whom I completly trust. He told me that he too had heard of some changes in the importation and in transit movement of guns through RSA. My travel agent also stated there was changes in the guns laws and would keep me up to date. Based on the recommendation of another poster on this forum, I E-mailed Air 2000. I e-mailed to them the forms needed. No payment was made in advance. I was told it would be collected at the terminal. Yesterday I was advised by Air 2000 that the in transit permit was not going into effect. Did they make up the law? I dont know I'm not there. They didn't get any money from me. In a previous post by Steve he E-mailed Superintendant A. Lesch with SAP and got a response back. I also E-mail Lesch and got no response. I can only say that Air 2000 was up front with the permit status. They could have met me at the air port and collected my $70 without saying a word, but they obviously didn't do that. If at some point the SAp does inact some new in-transit or importation laws, after confirming it with other sources I wont hesitate to contact Air 2000 again.
Ralph

Most satisfactr'y, Shakari, and this incidently answers m' request of about a month ago for someone who knows whatthehell is goin' on. Phew and other things. Nice thing about the SAP 311 is that y'can download it from their website and fill it out on yer computer then print it out and stuff it in yer kit. BTW, Afton Guest House will also meet yer at the gate and do the walkthru clear up to their doorstep, if yer stayin' there.

Well it seems you guys like Air2000, that's fine with me, have at it.

In response to G Maxon, the thread (or one of the threads) that promoted the use of AIR2000 to satisfy the 21 day requirement is provided in my previous post. If he is curious, there is a search function provided on this bulletin board and with a little diligent looking, he can find this thread and any others on the same subject. The poster was Shakari.

In response to KINO, everyone on the ground knew there was no 21 day advance application necessary on May 4, when I was physically at JNB and was told, in response to my questions about Air2000, that there was no advance permitting requirement, and furthermore that AIR2000 had no clearance to meet and greet customers arriving on commercial flights into JNB. Why AIR2000 chose to wait until yesterday to inform KINO I can't say.

It seems that anyone who did pay for the service thinking that advance permitting was necessary, was in fact misled, unless they were told otherwise upon arrival. I don't see how anyone can refute that. It wasn't supposed to be necessary until June 1, and any draft legislation that said it would be required, was corrected or before May 4.

Others who paid for the service just for convenience sake hopefully got what they paid for, and judging from the responses posted thus far, they believe it was worth what they paid.

Shakari, you have all the answers on June 3, but where were you on May 4? This was your last post on the topic:

Re: Just returned from Namibia [Re: Sheldon Charron]
#633715 - 04/20/04 09:36 AM Edit Reply Quote



The new act is being applied from 1st June and the cops say there will be NO exceptions whatsoever after that date, and this will effect passengers transferring through as well as just coming to RSA.

Air 2000 charge US$70 per passenger with firearms and IMO it's gotta be well worth it just to make sure you don't lose your firearms.

What will actually happen to those people who simply do't have 21 days between now and their arrival date I have no idea......but sure as shootin' someone's gonna find themselves with no rifles for their hunt.

The top-cop in charge of the firearms unit at JIA is an Inspector Conroy who can be called on his cell-phone at +27827872906 .......but as he's the last guy in the world you want to piss off on this, I suggest you remember the time difference.

Guys, I've also gotta say that your agent & outfitter should have been up to speed on this some time ago. If they're not, then you should be asking yourselves why not.

This industry is full of people that don't know the meaning of the word professionalism but it's no excuse for the client to tolerate it...... If they can't offer you the most basic of customer service then you should be booking elsewhere next time.

--------------------
Steve Shakari Robinson
Kuduland safaris (Africa) Ltd
www.kuduland.com
info@kuduland.com
Quality African adventures made easy < !--color-->


Quite so.

And if anyone who responded to the permit scare by using AIR2000 starts receiving unsolicited emails regarding special deals on Safaris, Safari clothing, special airfares to JNB etc., just remember that when you filled out the form on Air2000's website, there is no statement there about privacy.

Old Sarge,

The SAP 311 can also be downloaded from my website if it's easier.

Russ,

You're quite right, those were my comments and everything I posted was correct AT THAT TIME. All anyone can do is go to the man in charge, and if he says June 1st and no exceptions, that's what I (and the rest of the industry) believe.

I was quoting Insp Conroy who is the top cop in charge of firearm import at JIA.He like everyone else was quoting the act as it was then. The problem was that the powers that be were moving the goalposts as they went along. First the act was to be applied on June 1st. Then they realised that they wouldn't have the staff or facilities to do so.....so they changed it to July 1st. Then they realised that some African countries don't even issue import licences until the pasenger arrives, so they had to re-think that bit.....and so it goes on.....and on......and on. I might be good, but I'm not phsychic, so I can only post things as they are, not as they are going to be changed to at the next meeting of the Central Firearms Register or the ministry or any other body who wants to interfere.

Where was I on May 1st?....... probably looking after my own clients interests, which obviously have to come first. I'm happy to do what I can for forum members in general, but the guys who pay my bills will always take first priority.

Air 2000: Well, I have no connection with them at all, but I do think that if I had spent the last umpteen hours in a plane I'd be happy to part with $70 if it means that I don't have to queue up and wait for someone to process paperwork he doesn't understand and/or if it reduces the risk of my having to leave my rifles at the airport......I certainly haven't received any junk e-mails from Air 2000 and if anyone has I would suggest that they contact them and ask to be removed from their mailing list.......we all know how to use a PC don't we?

My last comment was about Professionalism, and my comments stand. Anyone who had booked a safari should have been told the current situation by their own outfitter AND/OR agent.

The cold hard fact is that this forum was, and still is full of posters who had booked and didn't know what was going on. There can only be one reason for that........a lack of knowledge and experience by some outfitters & agents. My point is that no hunter who has a booking should need to ask (on a forum) what's going on they should have already been told of the current situation.

As I said, I'll speak to Insp Conroy today and find out what the CURRENT situation is and post it here. But I'm afraid I won't be able to post what may or may not happen if decisions get changed at the next meeting or the one after that......at least, not until they happen.

Fair enough, I accept that.

I think the thread has run its course. Hopefully, anyone who uses the service in future does so with their eyes open.

Regardless of whether the permit is needed at this time or not, unless you have dealt with Air2000 YOURSELF, PERSONALLY, I would think twice about posting the sort of negative comments about them that come second-hand. As someone who has directly worked with them myself and had clients do so, I can tell you for a fact that they are on the up-and-up and very professional. We all knew things in RSA might change around this time and so maybe they have, but I will not believe that Air2000 is doing anything "suspicious" until I hear it from several people with personal experience.

OK Folks,

I�ve just spoken to Insp Conroy who has told me that (currently) after July 1st the situation will be as follows:

In transit permits will not be required until some time next year at the earliest.

SAP311 forms will still be required on arrival and they will then issue SAP312 temporary import licences. There is no charge for this service and it remains the same as the old system.

Semi auto shotguns and rifles will not be allowed to be imported unless you have signed authority by Inspector Bathma who is head of the Central Firearms Register. You will need to apply for this in advance��and you probably won�t get this permission unless you have a very good reason such as you shoot one handed as you only have 1 arm. (my comment)

You are allowed 1 handgun (revolver or semi auto) per person for self-protection. You are not allowed a semi auto pistol for hunting. This means that if you pitch up with something like a scoped semi auto pistol it will be seized.

You are allowed a maximum of 200 rounds of ammo per calibre per person. Ammo will be counted on arrival, and any excess or undeclared ammo will be seized. You are not allowed to import ammo if you don�t have a firearm of the same calibre with you. (This is to ensure that you don�t leave ammo behind for your PH)

You are only allowed 1 firearm per calibre (3006 & 308 for example are officially classified as the same calibre) The ONLY exception to this is that they will allow you to bring in 2 shotguns of the same gauge for wingshooting.

Proof of ownership is required for ALL firearms and each hunter must have his or her own separate proof of ownership. 2 hunters sharing a proof of ownership may result in the SAP seizing all the firearms & ammo.

Seized items: you need to ensure that you claim these before you depart RSA. If you don�t then they will be destroyed by the state. There will be NO exceptions.

Air 2000 DO have a licence to meet passengers at aircraft side at JIA and they ARE permitted to get the import permits pre-issued so that all the hunter has to do is take the pre issued licence to have it checked against the firearms and ammo��this will save a considerable amount of time for most hunters. (My opinion of this is that it�s probably worth the $70, but at the end of the day it�s up to each individual hunter to make his or her own decision on this)

So that�s how it stands at the moment. However, just so that Russ doesn�t give me a hard time, I can�t speak for what may or may not happen at some time in the future����now where did I put that crystal ball?

Just to add my recent experience with in-transit permitting at JNB. I arrived at JNB and was going directly to Lusaka. With the recent confusions over in-transit permits, I was naturally uncertain about how things would be handled. Two travel agents recommended checking my luggage and guns through to Lusaka, Zambia, while others recommended clearing customs at JNB and rechecking to Lusaka afterwards. A last-minute e-mail from my PH strongly urged the second course, as his clients have not had good luck with luggage and guns being successfully transferred when checked through, so that's what I did.

A security person had my rifle case when I arrived at baggage claim, and after showing him my passport and signing his log book he walked me over to the SAPS firearms office. The SAPS officer issued the temporary import permit (TIP) as usual, and said that since it was good for 30 days, when I arrived back at JNB on my return from Zambia, all I had to do was show the TIP and I wouldn't have to go back to the SAPS office a second time. That's exactly how it worked out.

An interesting twist for those of you with interchangeable barrel rifles: I took a Blaser and dutifully registered the receiver with U.S. Customs. SAPS, however, is interested in the barrel where the chambering is engraved, and put the barrel's serial number on the TIP. They seemed to accept the fact that the U.S. Customs registration of the receiver proved that I owned the barrel as well, but it's probably best to register not only the receiver but also the barrel if it has a separate serial number.

I was prepared to let this go, but I don't appreciate a lecture from someone who has promoted the use of Air2000 at least 6 times in the last year on this forum, of both their firearms permitting service and of their air charter service.

Frankly, ma'am, it appears from your posts that you have never been to South Africa, not once, so I am curious as to what makes you the authority on this matter? Other than the fact that you booked a trip for your boss and his son using AIR2000 as a charter service, for which you received two gifts from Anne at AIR2000?

The fact is, it is a very simple and straightforward matter to clear firearms through customs at JNB. You don't need an agent, you don't need a meet-and-greet, and you don't need an advance clearance or permit of any kind for sporting firearms, nor has this ever been a requirement. At best, you might save yourself a few minutes getting your firearms cleared but from my personal experience on several trips, such a measure might only be necessary if you have a very tight domestic connection. (Intl connections don't require bags to clear in RSA).

As I have previously posted, if you want to use AIR2000 go ahead. However, I felt it appropriate to point out that you don't NEED to do so, since nobody else, to my knowledge, has provided a counterpoint to the many "plugs" for AIR2000 on this forum (strange, they seem to be the only outfit mentioned that can provide this service, and there seem to be a small number of posters that repeatedly plug their services).

I'll state right now, I have no axe to grind in this matter, I just like to keep the facts straight and I hate to see visiting hunters conned into paying for something they don't need. I challenge the AIR2000 supporters (I am talking about those who have promoted their services multiple times, in some cases using scare tactics) to make the same declaration on pain of exposure. I also challenge AIR2000 to prove my sources wrong, and to post their (dated)permit to meet and greet pax from COMMERCIAL flights at JNB on this forum, or on their website.

At this point I think you are the one that needs to provide proof of impropriety, or drop the whole thing.

Steve has gone above and beyond to gather information on this for site members. He as talked to named people "in the know" that and has provided valuable feedback.

On the other hand, you have not provided anything but 2nd hand gossip from undetermined sources.