As Many have requested I will try to break down the chain of events as they happened, so other hunters can take advantage of what I have been told.

Please READ ALL OF MY POST FIRST, then please feel free to comment.

On the 16th my son and I left Jo-burg on SAA in buisness class, checking 3 bags, the rifle case is polished aluminum with Master Lock.

On the 17th we arrive in Dulles our clothes bags arrive but no rifle case. There is one SAA rep. working who will not talk to me about missing rifles, and he says SAA subcontracts with Scandanavin Air Service for baggage handling. I was told all airlines hold to the rule that a lost baggage claim cannot be filed until you reach your final destination, in this case it was United that flew us home.

We arrive home, file missing claim, am informed by United they have no record of my baggage ticket being scanned out of Jo-burg. I begin to worry.

On the 18th I call United they still have no record of my tag number. They maintain my rifles never left Jo-burg.I go to the SAA web site, call the missing baggage number, get recording, leave my name and number, no call comes in.

On the 19th I repeat same process, same results, no bag number found, no call returned from SAA. I call Air2000 Anne says she will check on it for me.

Same on 20th and 21st, no bag in United system, they still say my rifles are in Jo-burg. SAA will not return my calls

On the 21st I call Air2000 and speak to Anne. She has send a person out to Jo-burg Airport to see about my rifles. She assures me they were put on a flight to the US. United is still telling me they never left Jo-burg.

On the 22nd I have had enough and I book a flight back to Dulles to find my bags. Of course my United flight is 5 hours late so everyone has gone home. I spend 3 hours in United lost baggage office and they are running my claim and they still cannot find any record of it leaving Jo-burg. So now I am at the point of beliving Anne at Air2000 or United, I bet on Air2000 and tell everyone the rifles have indeed left Jo-burg, there is no question about that, now where are they. Its midnight by now and I get a room with the intention of being at Dulles at 6 am when the SAA flight arrives tomorrow to get some answers.

Now its Sat. the 23rd, I get up at 4:30am, get to the airport ny 5:45 am to meet SAA 207 inbound from Jo-burg to get some answers. All I find out is there is no SAA agent at Dulles at 6:00am, the baggage is unloaded by SAS and thats it. The SAA counter opens at 2:00pm. I go back to United lost baggage and hang out, buy them Starbucks, and get an education on airline baggage handling.

2:00pm I am first in the check-in line at first class at the SAA counter. I demand my bag. The girl looks totally lost, looks at the next person in line and says next. I tell her I am not moving until she finds my rifles its been a week and I want them back. She gets on the phone and calls a SAA manager. Finally!! a real live person from SAA. IN 15 minutes he finds my rifles at JFK and promises I'll have them in a couple of days.

Thats all it took, a SAA employee and they were found.

Air2000 had been correct the whole time, the rifles were put on another flight to JFK on the 16th to make room for cargo on my SAA flight. Thats what SAS did, who handles baggage for SAA.Now here is where the " green " airlines enter the picture. SAS knew what would happen to an un-manifested rifle going into JKF, just a slip of the pen and a hunter is put through the ringer for 2 weeks. BTW, when the word " green " is used in South Africa it refers to anti-hunting groups, not clean air control.

SAS never scanned my rifles in on the other flight, thats why United showed them still in Jo-burg. The rifles had been in JFK the whole time but no one could determine that, except Anne at Air2000 and the airlines refused to listen to her.

So now my rifles have been seized by customs because SAS put them on the plane without a manifest. SAA is paying all the fees and fines for importing rifles into the US without paperwork.

I was typing this things just went to hell again. SAA hired Fauna and Flora to get the rifles to me. F&F wants to FAX me some forms to fill out, send them back with copies of my 4457 ( which SAA already has ) and then F&F will ship the rifles to the gunshop of my choice to be picked up. I may have them in another week. I called SAA at Dulles and he is trying to work out something else. But at least I have everyones cell numbers and they can no longer hide.

I thought I was done, now I'm not sure......I'll let everyone know.............JJ

Holy sh-t, what a mess! Thanks for telling us the story. Does it seem to you, after the investigation you've done, that there is any a way a person could avoid this (short of not taking rifles along)? Please let us know when your rifles make it home. Good luck!

Thanks JJ. So someone at SAS can just put a box on a plane bound for a foreign country, without scanning it in, ie. un manifested? That IS scary. How did Air2000 know this? In this computerised day and age it is amazing they were able to determine this. Having said all this, I am glad you are closer to getting your rifle case back. The more it costs SAA to rectify this, the less likely they will be to pull this stunt again, but I doubt it!
Peter.

Peter, just got off the phone with South African Air, now because it is a non-manifested firearm SAS has washed their hands of the whole affair ( imagine that ), Now SAA is telling me maybe the fastest way for me to get my rifles is to put it BACK on a plane to Jo-burg, turn it around there, bring it back on their flight 207 to Dulles, and let United have it from there to get it to me..................JJ

As Peter points out, it is interesting-- not to mention a bit frightening-- that something as large and heavy as a full aluminum rifle case could get put on a plane without being manifested. It could just as easily have been a very large bomb!!

I was luckier in May when they lost my rifles (along with another hunters) first they said I would have to return to dulles the next day for my cargo, then they said they could forward them to Altoona Pa airport (30 miles from home vs 150). Oh yea the other hunter was from Altoona. The next thing I hear is a call from a bonded courier service saying they would deliver my Tuffpack that evening, so I stay home and at midnight I went to bed at 3:00AM a phone call from the courier. He is on his cell outside my house. I guess it wasn't so bad, but at the time you could have fried an egg on my forhead.

Incredible- you are much more patient than I.As much as I detest "The Gummint" getting involved in anything, I think it is way past the time that the airline industry getts SPANKED for their terrible service-wether it be baggage issues, late flights etc....Where is the Dept of Transportation??????I know that I will not travel(fly) anywhere as much as I used to- cant stand the hassles............

The latest is now my rifles have been cleared thru customs in JFK.

SAA is telling me now they are no longer just lost baggage because they have been cleared, now they are firearms to be shipped.

My rifles have to be sent through a local FFL in order for me to get them back, this according to Fed-EX, Fauna & Flora and US Customs.

Appearently the gun laws in NY have snared me, that and no one knows for sure how to do anything. I guess SAA will pay the fee at my FFL.................JJ

quote:

I guess SAA will pay the fee at my FFL.................JJ

Good Luck!
Rich Elliott

Geez JJ, I am not going to ask you to pick my lottery numbers for me! I would think that you should tell SAA that it most certainly is baggage and that they should arrange delivery to your house. This just gets crazier every minute (or day as the case may be!)
Bwana1, I don't think the govt can or will do anything. In the USA it is the free market that determines such things and unfortunately they (the airlines) have us by the short hairs!
Peter.

What a nightmare this has been! Keep us informed.

What a mess! Makes a guy seriously think about using the ph's rifles instead of bringing their own. I hope you get them back soon.

What is amazing to me is that there is luggage at JFK (and correct me if I'm wrong) with some type of ID of the owner.... and the airline just lets it sit there without calling and inquiring if they can assist in getting it to the owner. Are they so stupid to think passengers WANT their stuff to be in a room at the terminal gathering dust.

Amazing, and very similar yet completely different to my experience in 05!!! As some may remember my flight on SAA was cancelled due to the SAA strike, and we had to fly home via Nairobi (Kenya Air) to Amsterdam to Dulles but I was not able to take the rifle case. It followed me in a few weeks making it from Harare to Joburg then to the States. It was to fly to Phila, but as they could not find the key in Dulles (that was taped to the case but hidden by the folder attached by SAA) which would have allowed them to see the Customs Form which was inside, they could not clear it thru Customs.

Scandinavian Air held it and they were trying to contact the name on the folder of the travel agent (Kathi Klimes) who was responsible for getting them out of Harare and the ball rolling, but she was on a safari herself in Zim when the case arrived (my address and phone was on marker on the case, but they never saw it and of couse nobody went looking as JudgeG said). So things could have been much simpler with a little bit more luck (if they found the key, and/or if Kathi had not been away herself, and/or they had seen my name/phone and called me direct).

In the mean time, I called and/or emailed Dulles, Atlanta, Phila, Joburg, not even being sure if it was shipped as cargo or passenger luggage. I spoke to station managers, passenger services, guys in cargo warehouses, Customs agents, anybody and everybody I could think of.

Eventually - just like JJ - I got to the right person, located the case, and arranged to pick it up at Dulles. People were helpful and tried to be of assistance, but I got the distinct feeling that there are so many variables that each occurrence would be completely different. At this point, I hope for the best, but consider my firearms (none of which cost over $1500) to be somewhat "disposable". The same piece of mind can be gained by insuring expensive firearms beforehand. I make sure there are adequate backup rifles in camp just in case. Anything so as to NOT make the whole issue surrounding the guns/ammo the centerpiece of the trip.

Thanks for posting the details JJ as this unfolds, and kudos' for being persistent!

JJ: Thanks for the detailed update. Much of what you went through, I did as well in 2005, although my rifles were found in time to get them to me on the flight home. But not until I had spent a full 24 hours in the airport, cajoling everyone and anyone and making some pretty hard-assed demands. I found that persistence definitely paid off in my experience. You at least now know where your rifles are, and see light at the end of the tunnel. Your details were very helpful in knowing what SAA does with some of its baggage and what we may have to do in order to search for lost rifles. (Check on other flights leaving Jo'burg to see if the rifles were sent on there as other baggage). Thanks again.

The most telling issue through this whole mess is that Anne at Air2000 somehow knew where my rifles were days before anyone else.

I put my faith in her and it was well founded. The info she provided allowed me to argue in confidence that my rifles were in fact stateside. That helped very much. She is a peach, I told Anne to bill my Visa for her time and for sending a man out to Tembo, whatever she thought was fair.....she billed exactly $0.00. Thats why we pay her up front, the service follows until your issues are resolved...............JJ

After 4 trips to Africa, my next one will consist of me and a carry on with 3 sets of clothes and an extra pair of boots. I can use a loaner rifle over there. This may be an isolated incident but me personally, I have no desire to deal with all this anymore.

What a nightmare!

And had you not dropped everything you were doing at the time to fly back to Dulles, chances are it would still be a mystery.

Unfortunately, as the airlines continue to try to cut costs anywhee they can, it is not going too get much better. They are outsourcing some functions that they performed themselves because it is cheaper than keeping their own employee base. The dirty truth is that for a contract company to do the same job for less than the airlines can do it themselves, they invariably cut corners. And one of those corners is hiring people that would never meet the airlines hiring standards. Add to that more work for less pay. What a formula.

So, when baggage is lost, they can now blame it on a third party.

As for unclaimed baggage, it is really no concern of the airlines. For baggage that goes unclaimed, it gets shipped to a warehouse (if not in someone's trunk) for a period of time and then goes to public auction.

JJ, thanks for keeping us posted. There is no doubt that I will use Anne with Air 2000 for any future trips!

JJ, you sure have been thru a wringer with this, tho due to your own effort, looks lik eit will pay off and you will get your personal property (rifles) back.

Maybe asked before, can you or anyone else post a link to Air 2000.

Agreed! As JJ said, the main reason he could get so far was that he KNEW, by having feet on the ground in SA (AIR2000), that the gun case was placed on a plane. Without that certainty he was dead.
I tend to agree that just for that reason alone, AIR2000 is probably worth it.
Peter.

Bisonhunter1, google hunters support or Air2000 and they will pop up......................JJ

JJ, found it, thanks.

Well my rifles are home. I drove 3 hours round trip on the 15th to a FFL holder that Fauna & Flora sent my rifles to in Charleston WV. Almost 30 days getting them back.

I paid the FFL his standard $200.00 transfer fee to pick up the rifles. SAA promised they would send me a check after I submitted the receipt given to me by the FFL. I don't really fault him, its his standard fee.

The real pisser is that after all the uproar over an unaccompanied rifle case " appearing " at JFK and Customs seizing it the only thing they did was place 3 big red stickers on the case. It was never opened and inspected. My lock was still on it intact. I could have shipped anything home if I was of a criminal mind !!

I did not want to say anything until I had my rifles in hand but what goes on at our airports is amazing.

First, one does not need to worry about sneaking a weapon in the controlled areas. I could have overpowered the 63 year old lady walking around in a US Customs uniform, fully armed any time I wanted too. But she was the one who informed me as to why baggage gets " lost " at times. I bought her coffee and we talked. There is a building out in the middle of Dulles that " found and untagged " bags are stored. Now if you are checking in 1st Class someone behind the counter down in the bowels of the airport tears off your bag tag, and suddenly your bag is " untagged ", they figure 1st class travelers have better stuff in their luggage. Your newly untagged bag goes out to this building and sets for 2 to 3 weeks. Its not tagged so its not traceable. So now " they " figure an insurance claim has been paid on the bag. "They " go and take it home and flea market out your items.

Oh I learned lots of things buying grandma her Starbucks and talking for hours.

So 28 days and almost $2000.00 later I have my rifles and I consider myself lucky. The guncase is totally destroyed. It was mashed, drug around behind something and dented all to hell. Lucky for me it is a DEE ZEE Aluminum Case. I don't think anything else would have held up. I took pictures of the damage, its amazing.

God, I love hunting Africa ...........JJ

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:

I paid the FFL his standard $200.00 transfer fee to pick up the rifles.

Huh? $200.00 is standard for a transfer? You need to find a new FFL; I've never paid more than $40.00.

Glad you got your rifles back in one piece.

On the way out of Tanzania last September, I found that the safari company did not acquire an export permit for me and I was not allowed to take my rifles out of the country. Was a Saturday night and there was no one in the government offices for the safari company to get to help me out.

I left a complete copy of all of the paperwork (airlines ticket, safari company letter, safari company contact numbers, 4457, Dutch transit permit, and my passport number) in a ziplock bag inside and taped to the side of my TufPack and left a spare set of keys with the safari company representative.

Rifles were delivered to my house the following Wednesday. Oh My, was I relieved!

I can't imagine 1) how yours got so screwed up and 2) who in Charleston, WV, has the cajones to charge $200 for a transfer!

Glad you got your rifles back ... finally.

Presumably the $200 is the total for all the rifles. So, if there were 3 rifles then that is $60 some bucks per rifle. So, now the rifles have been transferred to you twice! Once when you bought them and now, again.
Peter.

JJ - I would let the FAA know about this (www.faa.gov) Click on Travelers in the top right cornor then to the bottom of that screen.

JJ,
I would send SAA a bill for time,gas,and the cost of the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Kamo Gari:

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:

I paid the FFL his standard $200.00 transfer fee to pick up the rifles.

Huh? $200.00 is standard for a transfer? You need to find a new FFL; I've never paid more than $40.00.
Glad you got your rifles back in one piece.

I agree with Kamo Gari. Even here in the Demokratic Republik of Kaliforniacation we only pay $30 per firearm.

Hey! Have you ever heard how they count cadence in the Kalifornia National Guard?
Left, Left, Left, Left, left, left, left!

To all California National Guardsmen: I was only foolin'. Thank you for your service.
Dave

all of this bullshit is why i rented a rifle and shotgun from my outfitter in Botswana on my last safari and why i am using a free loaner in New Calodonia on my rusa deer hunt next month. it just is no longer worth the aggravation to travel overseas with a firearm, epecially since i intend to spend 3 days in sydney sightseeing and would have to get an import permit for Aus.

What is most chilling about this entire affair is ineptitue of the airlines and airport personnel and their disability to handle untagged/untracable luggage. What if there had been a bomb or some chemical agent in that case instead of hunting rifles? In this day and age, I find it somewhat sobering to see that airport security is still a joke. You'd think we'd of learned by now...

I think the message is more than just incompetence, which is rampant and obvious, but that we have crooks working there!
Perhaps a letter to a congressman or senator. Those guys are always looking for something to say. Just don't criticize the "war on terror" which is what everyone hides behind.
Peter.

JJ

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I just read about it. Computer problems, long story.

If I had seen this earlier I may have saved you some problems. On my last safari in 2005 SAA lost my guns. I jumped through hoops like you did to try to get them back.
It was 35 days before I got mine back. They had been around the world on 5 different airlines, 2 Unclaimed baggage holding facility's,2 customs holding facility's and then to the Customs brokers before shipping back to me UPS. Then UPS lost them in the Doraville GA terminal. Lots of headaches.

James

SOrry to hear of all of your troubles. I have had guns get lost on planes in several countries. The only time I was really worried was in Mongolia.

My worst experience was when a rifle and shotgun got held up in Helsinki airport for about 6 months. looooong story. I was finally able to get them back by having a friend drive to the airport and then mail them dierectly to me vvia the Finnish postal service. They came right to my little rural North Carolina post office and I picked them up and went home. That part really surprised me. i figured our Post Office or someone would have made them go through Customs or something.

The pisser is what got you too. How many hours of your life were pissed away, and all for nothing!?! Lost rifles are lot like identity theft in that way-usually the total monetary impact is minmal, but man can it eat up a lot of your time!

But again, glad you got them back!

Jim Manion is absolutely correct about the outsourcing and the incompetence of the contract labor. Northwest is one of the worst offenders, although NWA/KLM got my rifle and suitcase to DAR last year on time. That definitely goes against the grain with NWA, though. I've had several bad experiences with them to Canada and domestically.