Capstick in his book "Death in the dark Continent." mentions that on several occasions, the.458win 510gn SP failed to exit on lion.(he considered an exit beneficial)
What is the story? if it does not reliably exit on Simba,then, what is, the.458 good for,surely not bigger animals?

You never know with the older bullets that loaded in the cartridges back then. Sometimes the softs would work as advertised and sometimes not. Softs weren't made to exit the game too often. With today's stuff, you can have much performance with the 458WM. I've been playing with some Northforks in my old Ruger tang-saftey 458 w/RE7 and can get 1-1.5" 5-shot groups when I'm not distracted by the yo-yo next to me on the bench.

It's hard to tell truth from fiction when you read PHC. You'll notice an absence of photos in his books (and old magazine articles) from the era in which he he was supposedly a PH. Ken Elliot, formerly of 'Petersen's Hunting' alluded to this ambiguity (tongue-in-cheek!) one time, and it was for a reason.

In fact, the one and only photo I've ever seen of PHC at the head of a safari crew in the bush is in Colonel Charles Askin's book, "The Hunter's Rifle", and Askins also claims to have been a client. Try to find any other client who claims to have been guided by PHC and you'll likely come up empty..........

To the point of your discussion, I do have legit friends, including Jim Carmichel of 'Outdoor Life', who have killed lions with the 458 Win. Mag. and 500 gr. softs, and according to their testimony, those lions were killed stone-dead, on the spot. No penetration problems have been mention. But, to be fair, they're also the kind of guys who handload good bullets, employ a chronograph during load development, etc. Penetration problems with certain lots of factory ammo has been noted before, so maybe this is what PHC was referring to.......... possibly second-hand!

AD

There are many cases of the 458WM failing on everything in the old days! Back in the late fifties, there were stories constantly about someone getting stompped when useing a 458 WM.

It was the ammo used in those days that was the fault. The 510 gr soft point was a creepy bullet with a mind all it's own. It would totally destroy it's self if it hit a mopani leaf before it got to the target. Addtionally, once the ammo got a little age on it, there were lots of hangfires, because of powder compaction. As long as the ammo was fresh, it seemed to work fine, but ti didn't take long for the powder to become a solid in the case, causeing the hangfires. The above is not something one wants when faceing a big biter!

People have learned that with today's powders, and the use of better bullets, the 458 WM can do a fair job. It still suffers from a very small powder capacity, to handle the 500 gr bullets it is so often saddeled with. Far better preformance can be obtained with the use of fast powders and a little lighter bullet. like the Woodliegh 470 gr solids, and softs. The 458 WM is, what it is, and is simply not the best 458 cartridge around. It will work, however, if fed properly. The simplest way to fix the 458WM is to simply re-chamber to 458 LOTT, and be done with it, if you absolutely MUST use 500 gr bullets. The powder capacity of the 458 LOTT is not that much more than the 458 WM, it is simply enough more to make the cartridge what it should have been in the first place!

I have owned a lot of different 458 WM rifles over the years, and once I found out they simply needed a load of powder that wasn't crushed by a bullet that was so big it had to be seated too deep, I had no problem with it. I used a senceable IMR 3031, behind a 450 gr bullet,with mag primers, and it worked fine. The 458 LOTT, however can be loaded with a 480 gr Woodliegh, soft or solid, to about 2150, to duplicate the old 450NE 3 1/4" double round, and is pleasent to shoot,out of a 9 lb rifle even from the bench, and it gets the job done in fine fashion. Still there is nothing wrong with the old 458 WM if it is fed properly, it just isn't the best 458 around!

There are even failures being reported in todays world with the .458...Man Magnum reports failures with the new Enhanced ammo as being too hot and locking up guns...

I still say where there is smoke, there is fire, and thats the history of the poorly designed 458 Win...sure it works with a good handload, but at what pressure has always been the question...so some suggest 450 gr. bullets, other do not and on and on with cures..

The real cure is to punch that chamber out and extra thirty thousands, then you have the best of the 45s, the 458 Lott..

Its so easy to fix that I just cannot understand the thinking of anyone that persists in a standard 458 Win...but hey its their call, but don't deny me my call is all I ask....

Ray

It's kinda like having a 38Spl and a 357Mag. You didn't always need to carry a 357 but the 38 in a nice snubby just fits in your pocket. With RE7, the 458WM is just fine with me.

Ray,

I shoot an original condition Pre-64 M70 Supergrade "African" in 458WM. I will not punch it out to a 458 Lott because to do that to a Pre-64 is a crime against humanity.

I easily get over 2,150 fps (chronographed) with a 500 grain bullet (Swifts, Hornady, Woodliegh, etc) by using 73 to 74 grains of A2230. This is not a compressd load. The factory barrel length on my gun is 25" which may help a bit with velocity.

Also, I just chronographed some Hornady 350 grain soft points at 2,535 fps. This could be a really fun plainsgame load, although I don't know how well that bullet would hold together.

For guys who place a ton of confidence in the 470 NE, if you are shooting factory ammo I would be interested to see the velocities of a 500 grain bullet over a chronograph. I think someone tried it before and many of the factory loads did not go over 2,100 fps. However, that could vary by rifle and barrel length.

Either way, a 500 grain .458" bullet at +2,150 fps should do the job.

Tim

Amen, brother.

Great topic! Let's have more. Thanks, Mike

I have had 2 different 458's. I got my first one in late 1976 or early 1977.

When Winchester first started loading for the 458 they intended tha 500 solid to be used on buff, elephant, rhino, etc,
The 510 Soft was designed as a "very soft" [my term] for lion, leopard etc.
And very soft it was, not worthy for a first round on buff.
When RP began loading for the 458 their Soft was a little more robust.

Winchester got everything wrong with the 458.

They should have used the full length 375 case.
A 500 grain bullet is to heavy for the case [and powders of the day]
They used a compressed load of ball powder.
If just one of the above things would have been different the 458 might not have had its early problems.

The .458 is my favorite big bore, I just prefer it in a 450 No2 Double.