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Retreiver,

No I have not tried the Bridger bullets.

Only Hornady FMJ in 375 and 458, Kynoch in 416, and GSFN, Noth Fork FN, Barnes RN, and Kodiak FN in 458.

The main purpose of the test was to establish what effect rotational velocity and increased MV had on penetration. I tested 1-8, 1-10, 1-12 and 1-14 twist FMJ's at velocities from 2,000 fps to 2,825 fps.

I will be posting the entire test on Hals website and will make a post here directing you all to it when it is on-line.

Handloader and Rifle magazine passed on publishing it and my test of 20 premium soft points in 458, saying they had a 3-year back log of articles and did not publish "free lance" writers anymore. They just use their regular staff of writers no matter how important other works may be.

So on-line publicaiton may be the only way to get real, un-biased information on hunting sports.

Thankyou, Saeed!

Andy

I recently tested some unconventional 458 caliber solids and FMJ Flat Nose bullets and thought you all might like to see how they did in the La Grange stop box. (3/4 inch thick plywood spaced 3/4 inch apart in a rigid stop box).

Range 20 yards as that is what the late George Hoffman told me he used since, "That was the range that a charge was likely to develop."

450 Dakota, 1-12 (not standard 1-14) twist.

Reference standard, 500 gr Hornady FMJ RN, 2,397 fps chronographed, 70 boards.

450 gr Barnes RN solid, 2,555 fps, 62 1/2 boards.

400 gr Barnes RN solid, 2,676 fps, 54 boards.

450 gr North Fork Flat Nose (2nd generation with slight radius on meplat), 52 1/2 boards.

450 gr GSFN, 2,524 fps, 47 boards. this expanded to .431 diameter meplat and tipped and yawed from about 33 boards, to about 45 degrees.

500 gr Kodiak FN bonded with hard lead core, 2,407 fps, 33-43 boards. This expanded to .65 caliber!!!! Shot it twice and expanded the same each time. Tore the shit out of the boards like a soft point.

To put this into perspective, a 375 will do 61 boards, and a 458 Win mag will penetrate 58-59 boards with Federal screaming premium FMJ (2,105 fps from 25 inch BRNO 602 barrel).

Interesting that the 375 with 300 gr FMJ and the 450 Dakota with a 450 gr RN at similar velocity and SD had same penetration.

The FN rather than RN bullet profile takes 15% or ten boards off the 450 gr bullets penetration. Probably worth it for the increased tissue damage.

The 450 gr bullet has about 10% less penetration than a 500 grain. Not bad.

The 400 gr. has about 25% less penetration than a 500 gr.

Just for laughs I shot the 7.62 NATO into the stop box and it went 22 boards and was recovered base forward, turning 180 degrees at 14 boards. Those head shots on jumbo must really be all or nothing.

Andy

Andy,

I still have 20 of the 5 gallon plastic buckets with lids, and could lay them end-to-end, full of water and with lids sealed with duct tape, in rails across saw horses.



After I blast them to smithereens, I will look for the rectangular waste baskets.



I could try SD of ~0.3 in .375 with Barnes RN monometal bronze/brass, old Hornady steel RN FMJ, GSC FN copper, and Bridger FN bronze/brass, all at 2400 fps, then at 2700 fps, all in 12" twist. (Yes I have some of the mythical 300gr/.375cal GSC FN and HV bullets. I still think that GSC are the best bullets extant. Too bad they are so hard to get.)



This would answer all my questions. Of course, I have been meaning to do this for over a year, but logistics have been impossible for the last year. One of these days it will be great fun.



Until then I rely on your hard work, like a parasite. Thank you.



What do I think:



The FN is the best solid in live game, and they get better as SD and weight increase, and they get better as velocity is increased to a practical 2400 to 2800 fps. There is nothing magic about 2400 fps.



Maybe the round noses are more prone to fish tail at all velocities versus the FN?



At least 300 grains, at least 2400 fps impact velocity, at least 0.300 SD, what's that spell? .375 H&H. and bigger, and the more the merrier for the hunter using FN monometal solids.



Thanks again.

Alf,



Pertinax brings the matter to the point.



I never said there is no pressure generation. All what you wrote on pressure is correct and I never said that there is nothing like that. In contrary I reported my observations with the SP bullets, they are wounding like softs because they have an enormous pressure generation effect. I wonder where this misunderstanding comes from?



Of course you have wounding, destruction or other effects with smoothbore, especially with short bullets, but no straight line penetration with long (with respect to their diameter) bullets. And this is what we are dealing with rifle bullets for big game hunting. When I wrote "no penetration", it should be "no sufficient penetration".



Short handgun bullets are not so susceptible to tumbling and it doesn�t matter for some wounding if they are penetrating broadside. And Selous and other elephant hunters with their smoothbore used round balls or very short bullets where tumbling is not a problem. (The distance between the center of gravitation and the center of the decelerating forces is negligible or even zero.) I calculated the penetration Index for Selous�s bullets and made anlog experiments on eles.

And as I wrote, steel pellets are not representative for long rifle bullets. Why do you confuse our discussion with citing these experiments?



We have to simplify postings and esp. with my limited english I cann�t go into all details, but nevertheless I hope that I may be understood in general.

Andy, how many of each bullet make did you test? The data from a group of ten might be very interesting. Even that, though assumes alot about the quality control of the manufacturers.
Though the cost would be prohibitive, I think if we're to make much of this, we need five bullets each, from five different runs, of each of the bullet makes. That would give us an idea of performance plus reliability.
Really all we can say from you shooting those bullets is, this is what those bullets did that time.
I like the idea of an international coalition of ballistics testers. Who wants to loan me their 57 Nitro?

Bwana-be,



This has been the most looked at thread for several days on the AR forumn, so you guys really do care about FMJ performance.



Its not practical for me anyway to test more than 2-3 bullets on each test string. Its just too expensive. (I tested 8 bullets at four different twists for a total of 32 some combinations).



The 12 x 12 inch boards can only take a few shots each before needing to be replaced, as after that you are not being fair to following bullets that may hit an edge and tumble, or penetrate more if it hits a couple areas that were wiped out by a bullet going sideways or a FN that expanded.



The consistancy of manufactuer is greater than you assume, as FMJs and monomentals are pretty easy to make. Shooting alot of each bullet will tell you more about how stable they are in a 1-14 twist (or I should say unstable) than quality control.



The quick twist bullets (1-8, 1-10, 1-12)exited the stop box 10-13 boards later than the normal twist (1-14 and 1-12), so testing several shots is certainly a good idea. The quick twist is more consistant, and the 416/400 gr and 458/500 gr monometals will probably not be nearly as consistant as a lighter monomental.



Norbert found similar results I think.



What caliber would you like to test???



Andy

I did a lot of testing and I am open for more experiments, but today I can summarize for the newbie as follows:

For DG hunting, especially elephants, use non expanding bullets.
SD should be > 0.3, muzzle velocity > 2200 f/s. If a compromise is needed, down to 2000 f/s may be possible.
You can use for comparision the Penetration Index after A.Alphin. It should number more than 120 for to be on the save side.
Use an as flat and sharp nose (meplat) as you can get together with a slender shape of the bullets head.
If possible, use as short bullets as you can get with the properties mentioned, FMJ with lead core are better than copper monometals, but modern nose shape is only available with the latter. Therefore (esp. for the longer copper bullets), if you are customizing the rifle take barrels with a faster twist than normal. Instead of 1:14 use 1:10 ore 1:12.
That is all what you need without any number crunching, or as RIP quoted for the .375:

At least 300 grains, at least 2400 fps impact velocity, at least 0.300 SD, what's that spell? .375 H&H. and bigger, and the more the merrier for the hunter using FN monometal solids.

BTW: For testing I use water containers with 5 Liters (~ 1 engl. gallon), flat walls, 18 cm width. That means I can control the straight penetration every 18 cm (~7.5"). Tumbling is indicated by the holes in the plastic walls of the containers. I did it up to 3 meters (16 cans). For penetration test on solid material I use resin bonded boards 1.5 " thick with various intermediate gaps. These boards are very homogeneous, better than structured wood, known as kitchen boards.

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