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A lot of safaris in Africa involve some flying in small aeroplanes that are chartered by the clients. How many of you actually request detail info on the charter company when you are finalising safari plans? Do most of you just go with the flow or recommendation by the outfitter/ph without further questions? I'm curious because as I pass through local airports quite often during the safari season, I see all sorts of manner of aeroplanes taxying off filled with foreign clients off to a remote bush destination. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | ||
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I guess my assumption right or wrong has been that the safari company would not be putting their clients with an airline that might offer bad or unsafe service. My experiences so far with the charter services in Africa have been very good. Being that I lived in the Alaskan bush for many years I have loads of time in light aircraft and these African pilots and their equipment seem to be the equal if not superior to anything I saw in Alaska. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I may be stupid, but always trust the operator to screen for quality flight operations. "shoot quick but take your time" | |||
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i would really like to know what the outfitter's cut of the charter is. with the exorbitant rates the outfitter charges in Tz., i have to assume he is getting a kickback from the charter company. it is very hard for me to believe a charter into the Selous that involves a total of 5-6 flying hours total for into camp AND return to Dar actually would cost $2000-2500 if you just showed up at the airport and booked a flight!!! just curious jerry Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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jdollar I can't vouch for anybody else but I don't make a thing off a charter. Actually I recommend hunters drive if it is practical. The road transfer with our Bundu Safaris costs nothing extra and we can provide the drive to 3 of our 4 Tanzanian concessions. Ask about the road transfer option on your next safari it might save you a bundle. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I once showed up at the airport at Dar for my charter into the Selous. A seemingly 12 year-old child in a white shirt and shoulderboards smiled and directed me to an airplane. I, with some hesitation, smiled and asked him where he got his training (3rd grade?). His response was, "Commercial-Instrument in Houston just last year!". They sure did teach him to fly well, but Bathing 101" must have not be in the program. Damn stunk in that little Cessna 172. Last few times, I've had the same pilot. He's a little bald guy, maybe sixtyish and understands that runway behind him and altitude above him is wasted. Holding multi-engine, land and sea, commercial, instrument ratings, I've been impressed with the quality of the equipment and the skill of the pilots (all, so far, being gentlemen of color except for one Dutchman who didn't bathe much either  ).JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Hello Guys! First i want mention, that my english language is not so perfect, I`m write fron Finland and 29.6 we ( me and my three friends) took a flight to DAR, Tanzania. We allready booked Buff hunt, which start first of july. So, we arrived to Dar saturday morning, the we step on the charter aeroplane, seven people with all our stuff ( about 250-300 kg bags and supplies). The aircraft type was PA31-310 Reg. 5H-WAY. We started to flight and about after 1 hours we (pilot) started to landing. Sametime he shout :F..k, the flaps dont work!Then he said guy side of him:You have to help me with the breaks! Now we have a fast landing! Okei, we ( pilot) try to come down, the runway was a 1,5 km long and the first "hit" on the ground happened about 500 meters after the runway started.So. pilot try to stop the plain but he could`nt , so about 150 meters before the runway end, he try to get up again. The tail of the plane hit the trees and then crasht wings and right away started burning and then we hit the ground. It was a huge impact and its amazing that nobody didn`t loose consciousness and we were all good condition. We saw right away the aeroplane was fired, but lucky thing the windows didn`t broke, so the flames could`nt came in , yet! The guy in the back, he kick the door open and same time the flames came in because there was a oxygen inside the plane. The guy who kick the door open, get very seriously burn damages in his both legs and arms.Okay, we get very fast up and out, only thing what you can saw out there was a sea of flames. But the under to the back wings, there was no flames, so we jump like a tiger under it and crawl like four wheel drive and get so far you can get! All seven people survived, two guys have very seriously burn damages, one guy have a 3 broken spinebone on his back and 1 broken rib but he can walk, didn`t be paralysed. Other guys okay ilttle pain and those black marks all over bodys but okay. And "THE PILOT" nothing happened to him!!! After when we were back to Dar, We heard, the pilots nickname is Captain Chaos!!! So, i can tell you good friends and hunters, try to get every details and information example your embassy, do they know which aircraft companies are good and everything like that. Because, the hunting there is business and what are those little things what can give a profit to a safari companies, think that! Okay, guys, i can write sometimes a more what happened. The embassy people in Dar, they told as there is a 10% possibility to get a plane crash because the competition is hard and there is lot of corruptiòn and the goverment hide this things, because they afraid the turism get lower. Yatzy! | |||
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Jdollar, Typically charter companies, like travel agents, offer 15% commission on their Gross rates. I've yet to hear of a reputable charter company that offers Nett rates so outfitters can charge their mark-up to a client. I have a couple of friends that are pilots and they confirm that operating costs in Tz are indeed very high. 2 of the highest cost factors are fuel and maintenance. Mopst charter companies add a mark-up of +- 30%. Yatzy example above is exactly what I was talking about! Glad you guys made it without too much injury and without any loss of life!! "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Hey Judge G...I think I've flown with that same guy a couple of times. Is he short, a little heavy and about 40-50 years old? (Hard to tell how old those guys are) If we're talking about the same pilot, that dude can really fly a plane! Going into LU2 in 2005, I would have sworn he was landing on an aircraft carrier. He literally took my breath away with his approach  Not really scared, just in awe of his abilities. I've flown with the Dutchman too.Bull1 | |||
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Maybe the crap themselves every time they take off and land!  *** I had not even read Yatzy's comments when I wrote that! Yatzy, good to hear you made it through the crash. | |||
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This All happened this Year ?! Which Air Charter Company are involved ? Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | |||
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Guys I used to fly bush in Alaska. I've ridden around on plenty of light aircraft in Africa. Mostly I've been under impressed. I've found the maintenance to be poor for the most part and the majority of the pilots are wet behind the ear greenhorns. With the wages these small or even large charter companied pay there are only two types of pilots who are going to fly for them. The young guys who are just building experience until they can get a real job and the old guys who for one reason or another can't get a real job. usually due to a bad accident record a major personality flaw or some other reason. On very rare occasion you'll find a pilot who just enjoys the work and stays on. These guys are generally very good at what they do. If you think that the Safari company is looking out for your best interest when they contract a charter company I'd have to ask, based on what expertise do they judge that company? My guess is that they use the one that never says no and has the best paint jobs. That is not necessarily the safest company. Once when I was flying from Dar to Ifkara in a chartered C-208 caravan I was sitting next to a PH from a different company than the one I was hunting with. He had no idea that I was professional pilot and took it upon himself to start giving a narration about aviation in general and the airplane we were flying in to me and the rest of the passengers. Everything he said was wrong though I have to admit he did present it with much authority and panache. I would imagine that this fellow is one of the guys who makes recommendations on the "good" charter companies. The first thing I noticed when we taxied out is that the artificial horizon was flagged and the gyro compass was out of service. The pilot was a young Arab kid who did a very nice job of making an instrument penetration with no instruments through a thick undercast to a low ceiling to a dirt strip with no instrument approach. Quite admirable, and it will kill his young ass one of these days if he keeps it up. This is the same shit that kills multiple pilots and passengers in AK every year. The only reason that there are not more accidents in Africa is that during hunting season the weather tends to be pretty good. As far as captain chaos and his wreck I have a very simple question why didn't he just go somewhere with a longer strip to land no flaps? A no flap landing is a very simple thing to do but it takes some room. Help me on the brakes! If anyone ever said that to me I fire axe his ass and take the friggin bird back to Dar with 12,000 foot runway. DUHHH!!! | |||
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Hello Guys! I can`t tell you the pilots or companys name, because no one told us. Maybe later, i don`t know. Yatzy | |||
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if outfitters get 15% on each charter they book, they have little incentive to get the best, most reputable company- only the most expensive Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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In general I find African hunting charters to be overpriced scams. There is NO WAY that most of them can justify the prices they are charging without some kind of kick back to the safari company. I've been in the business to long and I know what the associated costs are and what fair charter rates should be. So if a charter company is giving a 15% booking fee to the outfitter then adding on 30% they are about 45% over priced. And the math just about works out right on that figure. I have heard it all with these guys about how the outfitter isn't getting anything how expensive the maintenance is how expensive fuel is.. BS BS BS. They are gouging the customer just like the outfitter is when he takes the 15% off the top. Charter and the associated costs are one of the things about African hunting that really pisses me off. | |||
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surestrike, i absolutely agree!! why should the outfitter get 15% on a $2000 plus charter fee for simply picking up the phone in Dar and making a few calls. the daily rate, pack&dip fee, etc are already high enough. the excuse that food, booze, daily necessities have to be flown into camp is bullshit. it flies in as cargo on the same plane that the hunter is coming in on and he is paying for that plane flight Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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I must admit and agree with most of the above; the charter fees have been the main thing that tends to leave a bad taste in the mouth after a successful hunt, although both of my experiences with the pilots have been fine. In reference to jdollar's comment, I've personally help load boat propellers, cabbage, eggs, etc. with no discount forthcoming. | |||
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Does anyone fly COASTAL AVIATION AIR CHARTER from Dar es Salaam to Selouis? | |||
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Oz, they are one of the better ones... Surerstrike/ Jdollar: You cry bs on fuel and maintenance! How does fuel costs per gallon in Africa, say Tanzania, compare with Canada and US? Some companies offer 2 pilots per plane, change aircraft every 5 years, equip them with latest instrument technology and auto pilots, need to fly to Kenya for maintenance and checks, hire expatriate pilots with a minimum of 5,000 hrs of which 20% has to have been on the plane type the charter company operates, subscribe to the very best aviation insurance which is expensive and operate at the very highest levels of safety which means carrying less passengers than the plane's capability due to runway conditions and other factors. These companies charge obviously more than the others. Their flying costs per hour can be as high as $600 for a C208B. They too need to make a profit, after all they are a business! Saying that charter companies should not offer outfitters a commission is ridiculous? Hotels do, booking agents do, etc. Charter companies are service providers and it is customary to do so. An outfitter may decide to waive this for the benefit of a client if they want and some do. So add this to the cost and then cosnider a reasonable return rate and you come up with a figure that explains why costs are perceived to be so high. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Correct  Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | |||
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A plug for an old friend who runs a small air charter buisness in Zim. Giles Raynor:- giles@altaircharters.com His aircraft are not new, but carefully maintained in South Africa and he and his partner have some thousands of hours flying into bush strips. Giles was Police Reserve air wing during our bush war, and can make a cessna do things that I thought only the Mission Aviation pilots could do (and they have God on their side  ) | |||
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Morjens sano köyhät toisilleen...! Oz, a day after the plane crashed, we fly back to Dar with Coastal Aviation , the pilot was an Indian guy and right away when i saw him, i said we trust you, you look like a PILOT! And no doubt, that pilot is high professional, i recommended him and that company for 100%! Yatzy | |||
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Yatzy, sorry to be so crass, but did you lose all your luggage as well? I must confess to being confused. Some folks are saying that the pilots and planes are the cat's meow, and others are saying that they are no good. What gives? Small sample? I must confess tha the cost of these charters makes me choose a road trip if at all possible. That way you have time to see the country and unwind. I have not heard of any horror stories about road blocks etc. Seems that the PH or crew has things well in hand. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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A hearty second for Ganyana's plug. Giles flew me in and out of Chewore in 'O5. He is also a gentleman's gentleman, excellent meet and greet, etc. I'm taking my wife to Zim in late August for her first look at mother Afrika. (Yes, I read the "news".) There's only one guy's face I want to see in the Harare airport - that's Giles'. | |||
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Bwanamich, $600 an hour for a C-208 is a fair price. I've been quoted MUCH MUCH higher than that. More in neighborhood of $1200 an hour and $800 an hour for a 206. That is where I call BS! None of the outfits I've flown with have two pilot operations nor is it needed on light aircraft such as the 208. I am sure there are some charter outfits that are better than others. But I'll give you an example of some of the BS that goes on. Hunting the Kilombero several years ago two of the guys in camp shot all of their buff by the second day. These guys are friends of mine and they are full sized South African Boers. Both of them pushing 300 lbs. They radioed in to Dar to get picked up early. Now mind you these guys have already paid for a C-208 round trip. When they get to the airstrip in Ifkara there is a C-182 waiting for them. These two huge guys and their PH. The pilot crams them and their luggage into the C-182 and takes off or I should say staggers into the air as this little bird is so over weight it is amazing that it can even fly. They drop the PH off in the Selous on the way home. The pilot couldn't get the airplane to climb more than about 1000'agl even after dropping off the PH. These guys got stuck paying the original charter fee. And it is only by the grace of god that they survived even survived the trip. Do you think that outfitter was looking out for the best interest of the client. Or trying to skim a few bucks off the top on his original 15%? Here is another cute little scam job that goes on in the African charter scene. Shared charters. I know for a fact that many times you get stuck for the whole fee when in fact the pilot after dropping you off then flies a short distance to another camp and picks up another party who also pays a non shared charter rate. This kind of double dipping is all to common. | |||
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Surestrike, The $600/hr was cost to the charter company. Their sale price is probably in between what you say you were quoted. Re: the 2 scams you pint out, the "kilombero saga" was not the charter companies fault. The outfitter should have credited the difference between the 208 and the 182 without a doubt! Shared charters - by the same outfitters - should be charged equally. Some outfitters charge a fee per transfer to camp which does not equate to the actual charter cost. They then try to keep a plane booked on both legs of the flight and book their hunting trips accordingly with set dates. That probably works best for all but difficult to coordinate hunt dates with flying dates..... "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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10% possibility fo a crash? I find that EXTREMELY hard to fathom. If this was the case, we would hear about several crashes a year. And no matter how the governmentr might wish to keep it quiet, I suspect the foreign hunter is going to talk once he is out of the country. | |||
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A plug for an old friend who runs a small air charter buisness in Zim. Giles Raynor:- giles@altaircharters.com Giles is excellent and it is a fact that his planes (Cessna 206s) are expertly maintained and are entirely flightworthy. Professional all the way! Zim has an advantage in some respects with the demise of Vic Falls tourism on the Zim side some of the sightseeing pilots have been doing safari client charters. The ones I've flown with were very experienced and had well maintained aircraft. | |||
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10% mishap rate is way too high and besides, 10% of what? flights or flight hours? Like Saeed says, with all the hundreds if not thousands of charters every year in africa, even 1% would cause a world-wide ripple of alarm. I'm pretty familiar with the cost/flight hours issue and aware that parts, competent maintenance AND aircrew come at a premium in africa, but what folks get charged, particularly in Tanzania, is absurd. Hell, the cost/hr is more in most cases than what it costs the Navy to to fly F/A-18s! Charters are a big reason why I don't hunt there. I flat refuse to pay that kind of money. In the "oh no, there he goes again" spirit, that is why I am so satisfied with my single PH, John Sharp. He has his own, meticulously maintained (in RSA) Cherokee that he flies himself and his costs are reasonable. And believe me he can fly. On our last hunt my friend who is also a flier and together we have over seven thousand hours of Navy tailhook jet time, we were very impressed, and believe me we watched his whole planning, preflight, in-flight and post flight processes to be suitably impressed. To the unaware, all the more reason to go with a competent outfitter/agent who'se hopefully done his homework and won't turn you into "spam in a can." with a flying death trap. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Mich, A B-777 which I fly charters for about $7000.00 an hour depending on the stage length. It weighs 640,000 lbs max take off weight. It can carry 350 people and it burns about 14,000 lbs of fuel an hour average. We generally have three and some times four fully captain qualified pilots on board and between 13 and 18 flight attendants. Our charters are fully catered and the booze is complementary. Some of the charters I've seen in Tanzania are approaching $1,500 an hour in a light piston twin or a C-208. A C-208 weighs what 12,500 lbs max? Burns about 600 lbs an hour and has a crew of one usually severely underpaid pilot. No other crew and of course it's BYOB. Please do the math on this for me. Sorry dude the numbers simply don't work out. Just because I'm bent over picking up my wallet when hunting in Africa does not mean that the various safari outfitters and charter companies are welcome to my virginity! | |||
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FiveBB, I've been there on the little airplane side of things too. There is some kind of hanky panky going on with these prices PERIOD! Of course if you want to talk about rip offs look no further than Lake Hood in AK where some of these guys are charging $1700 per head for a one hour out and back caribou drop off. Many times with 6 guys on board. And the posted charter rate is $450 an hour for the same airplane. Hunters are a captive audience. And they get taken advantage of. | |||
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That is amazing! Could you please give us a break down of the actual costs of the following: 1. How much does 14,000 pounds of fuel costs? 2. How much does it cost - per hours - for each of the 3 to 4 pilots you normally have on board? 3. How many other crew members you have on borad, and how much they cost per hour. ? | |||
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$7000/hr, eh. Interesting info. If you assume a 10hr flight, that'd be $70,000. So you'd only need $200 per passenger to make that if you filled every seat. I travel on business a fair bit...I am sure I'll be thinking about the math often! Cheers, Canuck | |||
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Saeed! Last january, same runway, pilot...same?, that i dont know, very similar accident. Pilot try twice to get down amd both time he lift the plane up again but at the third time, exactly samekind of crash what we have!!! And the same trees, can you believe? I think there was a 11 people in the plane and one women, from Finland also, like us, died! It took about two hours to crash between the moment when help arrived, that women died cause of her injuries. Her husband get several serious fractures and their children example skull fractures, but they survived. And a local newspaper was text only a about 5 lines? I think i rather take a jeep next time or then i choose aircraft company in my self. And, someone ask before, that did we loose all, yes! Everything burned, nothing left, hunting gears ( Sako safari De Luxe 375 H&H year 1992 example) all our clothes, money, passports, everything. I loose money something about 5000 € and insurance make up only 850€, so you can think our feelings right now. Yes, we go again, maybe next year, but how, we dont know yet? Yatzy from Finland! | |||
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Yatzy again! When i told i loose money, i mean pure money.It all burned.Hunting gears, clothes and all the other goods about 5000-7000 € more and the insurance make up those goods 5000€, so rest of i have to swallow the loose! total 10000-12000€ and payback from insurance 5850€ , so 4150-6150€ on my own. Yatzy! | |||
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Saeed, Since you own and operate a fleet of 777's why don't you save me the humility and just tell us what the break down of your operating costs are. I'm sure you know to the penny.  Apparently my quote is somewhat dated.  | |||
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there is a donated buff hunt at the upcoming SCI conven. in the selous apparently, where one of the "not included in the donation" items is the air charter into camp- in the listing it gives the fee for that as approx $5000!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is it just me or does rhat seem a little excessive? Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Precisely! George Leonard Hirter wrote a book about doing a complete African safari for a few hundred dollars. That weas dated too. | |||
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Another plug for Giles. He flew me and wife out of Chewore North 2 years ago. On take off my door opened, he very calmly reached over and pulled it shut like nothing happened! We had a pleasant flight and enjoyed his company. I hope his business and family whether the current situation. | |||
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If the operator is based in Arusha than the quote is accurate. In this case, I'm sure the outfitter can "make a plan" to meet hunter in Dar and save on charter cost. The suggestion that the charter should originate from Arusha is so that fresh supplies can be sent with the charter. Also, some operators purely use C208B's for all their charters whether there are 1 client or 5 clients! Quotes can be had for smaller planes.... "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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