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Would like to hear what some of you guys have discovered through field results ,as to whether there is much difference in penetration between: 180gn Failsafe/BarnesTSX type bullet and premium/superpremium 220gn soft points. For example if you were running a 300magnum would you be more than confident to run a 180tsx/FS@3000fps instead of having a 180sp & 220sp load.ie, Does the toughness of the copper bullet make up for the difference in weight/SD of the 220gn? I know some of you will recommend the 200TSX,I see the logic in that,and please include those results,but I would still like to hear results for the original question. | ||
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My experience is that the barnes 'X' will ooutpenetrate the bonded core superpremiums of the same weight because they open to a smaller frontal diamater, but if you up the weight on the bonded bullets that much they very well may equal the penetration of the 180's. I don't think many have made this particular comparison as one of the advantages of the 'X' and fail safe is the ability to use a lighter and faster bullet without sacrificing adequate penetration. If I want to shoot a 220 gr bullet, I go up to a .338. When you are but fifty feet from a beast that can stomp you into a mudpuddle or shred you into fajitas, rest assured he will have your UNDIVIDED attention!! www.aahsomeafricanadventures.com safariman416@hotmail.com | |||
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A 180 gr. monolithic will penetrate as much as a 200 gr or probably a 220 gr. conventional bullet. A conventional premium will usually cause more internal damage.. Like most things in life its a trade off and depends on what your going to shoot.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Weel Woodjack, I doubt that anybody has shot enough game with thos diiferent bullets under similar conditions (same cartridge, same size animal, same shot placement, same angle of shot) to warrant any kind of valid comparison. As Terry B of Michigan would say shoot 10 kudu size animals with the same bullet at close to the same impact velocity and you have the start of some data. But I would say there is probably not going to be much of a difference given that 180s are going faster and the 220s out of most 300 class magnums are going to leaving the muzzle at about 2750 and out of an 06 at around 2550 which is a sweet spot for soft point bullet perfomance. So I would say...shoot either one and whatever groups best in your rifle Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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without detracting from the thread too much: since we are getting greater penetration from the 180 FS/TSX would it be safe to say that if we load a 30/06 with 165 TSX@2900fps,that it would perform as well as a factory load 180 partition or corelokt 300magnum@2960fps? Would you really see that much difference in field performance out to 300yds? I doubt it,I cannot see a 165tsx at such a similar velocity performing any worse. but what are your thoughts, or better still, your results? | |||
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Use the barnes TSX. We never recovered a singe bullet out of the .300 wsm out of 9 animals. My father just shot a moose, went through the shoulder angling towards the neck, took out 3 ribs, blew up the neck vertebrae and was lodged in it on the other side. | |||
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The monolithics will out penetrate all the copper lead bullets, end of that story....but penetration is not the only quality you look for in a bullet..albeit its very important... I would rather use a Nosler or Northfork than any monolithic in most calibers, the exception being the monolithic Northfork and GS customs flat nose solids on Buff, Hippo and elephant and the Northfork cup points are my favorite Buff bullet hands down. For any soft skinned animal I prefer the Northfork half monolithic and half lead core bullet, (has a solid base) and I like Noslers, Woodleighs also.... I have never been the least impressed with the Failsafe bullet and not much on Barnes except for Buffalo where they have always worked fine. The GS Customs monolithic hollow points always work well as far as I can tell, I have shot some game with them and seen a lot of game shot with them and never a failure and mostly always got a very large exit hole, thats good... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I can't comment on 30 caliber bullets but will give you my observations with 338 bullets...225gr triple shocks vs 250 partitions vs 250 A frames. The animals were impala, wildebeest, zebra, kudu and eland. 3 different safaris. Results....I couldn't tell the difference. Each year I collected a couple of bullets but most are still whistling through the bush. So, I'm comfortable using any of the above with an edge to the tsx because they look cool, don't deform in the magazine and fly a little flatter FWIW. | |||
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Allen, have you had a chance to experiment with any 200gr. bullets yet? Remember the thread in which you were going to put several 200 grainers through the test? | |||
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| <allen day> |
Lefty, so far, my range tests have convinced me to stick with the 180s.......... AD | ||
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Woodjack, I sure can't fault your theory that a 168 TSX @ 2,900 out of an '06 should have similar performance to a 180 @ 2,950 out of a .300wm.. I've shot both and had great luck with both.. Allen's post of having taken over 70 head of African game with the 180's in a .300wm provides all the convincing that anyone should need that the .300 with a proper bullet is a formidable set up. Having only taken 8 or 10 animals with the TSX I can't offer anything other than, at this point, I'm rather happy with it's performance. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Pat, I still have guns store clerks and assorted guys who haven't used the 300 Win. Mag. for any hunting whatsoever assure me that 180 gr. bullets out of a 300 Winchester will sorta bounce-off or otherwise fail on elk as well as African plainsgame. I usually ignore such comments, but when I enquire as to exactly what sort of failures I'm to expect, I usually don't get a response back........ I just received an e-mail newsletter from Coenraad Vermaak Safaris this morning, and in that newsletter Hans Vermaak stated that they felt the 300 Win. Mag. was the ideal plainsgame cartridge. But according to certain guys standing behind the counter down at certain Portland gunstores, it isn't even good for mule deer and elk..... I always load 180s to 3050-3075 fps. and zero for 250 yds., which puts me 2.5" high at 100 yds. This works well just about anywhere, African included. AD | ||
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I shoot a lot of .308 Win from my Steyr Scout, and so far I have only recovered one 180 grain FailSafe -- and I had to make a Texas heart shot to do that. That bullet weighed 180.1 gr. My only complaint is they don't shoot as well from my other rifles. In those I mostly use the Nosler Partition, which shoot well in all the rifles I have tried them in. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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Allen, How about the 30-06? At the slightly lower speeds, does it make sense to go with a 200 gr. partition, or would you still recommend the 180 gr.? A friend loaned me his for a back-up gun for my elk hunt this fall, and I've got 180 partitions coming out a little over 2800 fps. They shoot pretty well, and right now I feel confident about them as a back-up. Thanks, friar Our liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Yes, I'd stick with 180s in the 30-06 as well. If you're getting 2800 fps. out of the '06, you're going full-throttle. You might want to consider testing your favorite load for pressure, or at least testing during the hottest weather possible before safari. I cut my max-safe 300 Win. Mag. load by a full 1 1/2 grs. for all-around use, including Africa, and it's worked without a hitch in +100 F African weather. So instead of 3100 fps, I get 3050 fps., which still seems to do the job.... Several 30-06 rifleman of long African experience are members here, including Rich Elliot and Mims Reed. I believe they both use 180 Noslers almost exclusively for plainsgame. AD | ||
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Friarmeier The 30-06 with Federal's High energy 180gr Trophy bonded bear claw is one awesome factory load. It has been chronoed @ 2,950 fps out of a 22 inch barrel. This performance is close to the .300 win mag and should be good for about 90% of the animals in Africa and North America. When i went on a caribou hunt in Alaska this is what i brought, just in case we came across any brown bears or grizzly's. Unfortunately i didnt get to use it on caribou, but i shot a whitetail doe with it at home, through the lungs, and she didnt go far.You cant find, or handload a more potent load in the 06. | |||
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In line with fgulla's post, I find the new "High Energy" stuff to be pretty cool. I know a few guys have gotten 2800+ fps out of the 180gr. Partition and Trophy Bonded Hgh Energy loads, putting them pretty much into "Magnum" class. My opinion of the .30-06 situation is if you can get a decent 180gr. bullet to hit 2800fps, you're making some pretty good horsepower. With factories producing standard rifles in 24" barrels now, it becomes much easier. At 2800fps, most any .308 caliber bullet will be an easy 250 yard shot on big game. Factor in a few inches and 300 yards is a walk in the park for an experienced, confident shooter. That's all most hunters need and will force any elk or moose to fold their hand, likewise plainsgame which are no different. I prefer Partitions for all around hunting, and consider 180gr. to be an ideal weight all around, except for the .300 Savage maybe (no experience). ________  "...And on the 8th day, God created beer so those crazy Canadians wouldn't take over the world..." | |||
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Thanks for the input, everyone. I too was a little concerned with the particular load--and while I don't have the data in front of me (over at my friend's place), I know it was in the neighborhood of 60 grains of RL-22, chronied on a hot (85-90 degree day, gun in the sun). The brass & primer showed no sign of pressure; likewise bolt-lift was smooth and normal. But I know, as someone wiser than myself once said, "velocity is a sign of pressure!" Again, thanks and good luck this fall! friar Our liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain. | |||
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| <allen day> |
I've chronographed 180 gr. Federal High-Energy ammo through several 30-06 rifles with 22" and 24" bbls., and velocity averaged 2800-2850 fps., and pressure was right up there -- in my opinion, too high for African use. Federal High-Energy 180 gr. and 200 gr. loads are also available for the 300 Win. Mag., and I chongraphed this stuff through three 300 Win. Mag. rifles, two with 24" bbls., and one with a 26" bbl. With one 24" rifle and one 26" rifle, velocity averaged between 3100 & 3150 fps., and the HE 200 gr. Nosler Partition load provides 3002 fps. out of my current 300 Win. Mag. with a 24" bbl. I used the 180 gr. Trophy Bonded HE load to kill a very big moose in B.C. a few years ago, and it blew a hole clear through him, breaking the left scaupla on the entrance side. It's good ammo, but again, I feel as though the HE 300 Winchester load is too hot for safe and reliable use in Africa. When the primers are dead-flat in 40 degree F weather, it's too hot for 100 degree conditions as far as I'm concerned....... This is the trap that guys fall into: They'll read about hot factory 30-06 loads that come within 100 fps. of plebian 300 Win. Mag. factory loads, then jump to the conclusion that the '06 suddenly equals the 300. If we're comparing apples to apples, this just isn't true, so don't kid yourself. Case-capacity still counts, and the HE loads available for the 300 keep the performance gap at 200-300 fps. with bullets of the same weight across the board, even compared to HE 30-06 loads. Even so, I consider 180 gr. 30-06 loads at about 2700 fps. and change with slowish powders (I.E. H4350), and 180 gr. loads at the 3000 fps. level or slightly better out of the 300 Win. Mag. with slower powders (such as Reloader 22 and H4831) to be acceptable for all-around African use. I would NOT load either cartridge to the max, ever. A safe elk load for 20-45 degree F weather is not necessarily safe for Africa........... AD | ||
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I now use 200 grain Barnes X in my 300 win mag. I have used remmington core locks 180, 180 grain nossler partitions, all worked well. BUT the Barnes does overpenitrate everything else that I have used in the past. I have never recovered one. Even stem to stern shots on big animals like Kudu and Waterbuck and Sable. NRA Life DRSS Searcy 470 NE The poster formerly known as Uglystick | |||
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Somewhere on the http://gscustom.co.za/ website they state that they use their 160gnHV @3400fps(300magnum)to take Eland out to 500yds. Just cannot find it again!  | |||
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Shooting an eland that far is first of all unnecessary, unless when you encouter them at 250 yards and you wanna fall back to 500 yards. You will also need a Hubble space scope like NASA is using mounted on a benchrest rifle instead of a hunting rifle buildt on a Mauser action. Chris | |||
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While I agree that you can usually get much closer to an Eland, you certainly do not need a benchrest-style rifle and all of the gadgets. What you need is lots of practice with your favourite sporting weight rifle. Cheers, CL | |||
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