I telephoned Barnes Bullets to inquire about the new triple shock 416 bullets and when they'd be available. Also wanted to talk to them about the new solids with the flat noses. I told them that I'd be using them for a buff hunt in the spring. (The whole reason I built the 416 was to shoot a heavier bullet than the 300G i shot in my 375 last year for better penetration)



Long story short...Barnes recommended their 350 grain bullets over the 400 grain bullets for my 416 Remington. I was told that a 350G bullet will penetrate full length through a buff, and that followups would be quicker, recoil less, and penetration is equal to the 400s.



Does this sound right? Isn't there still a greater energy transfer with the 400 bullets? And greater section density/BC? This seems to go against what I've always been told to shoot the highest weight bullets in each caliber. But.....the Barnes guys know more than I do about bullets. What do you think?



Jeff

Jeff,
Having taken buffalo with each, I differ in my opinion.
Send email, should you want the particulars.

If you want a bullet to make two holes then the Northfork cup point, the Northfork flat nose solid, the GS flatnose solid will do that just about every time...

The GS customs, BarnesX in heavy weight and the Northfork cup points will almost penetrate with a solid but not quite, so they will mostly leave two holes.

If you want the bullet fully expanded to stop on the off side skin most of the time then the Swift, Northfork soft, Woodleighs, and Nosler will usually do that and you can expect them to make an exit hole sometimes on a pure broadside shot unless they break a big shoulder bone...The Nosler being the more likely of the three to exit, but only in the 416 cal.

The Northfork softs, GS Customs HVhp, Swift and the Woodleighs and Noslers in .416 cal. tend to tear up more tissue at the expense of penetration, and probably kill a little faster...

IMO the Northfork Cup Point is the best of both worlds, it does both, it expands and penetrates like the dickens...but may have a bit more penetration than some might want for herd hunting. I have always been able to shoot into herds with solids simply by holding my fire until the window of oppertunity opens up, then take the shot...Saeed also does the same thing with his great homemade hollow points.

I have been shooting some of these bullets over the last couple of years and they are all great bullets...I will be trying the new 416 and 375 triple Xs in the future..I have no problem with the 350 gr. bullet on broadside shots as long as I have a flat nose solid or cup point to punch into the bull as he departs...The 350 gr. 416 and 270 gr. .375 bullets should be quite effective for the first shot and expected to stop on the off side skin.

If you stick a bullet "through" a bufflo full lenthwise and get an exit, it is very unusual, but has happened..I have seen it with Saeeds bullets, With Bridger FN solids and that means GS flatnose and Northfork flatnose will do it also..I have seen Woodleighs solids do this on ocassion and I have seen some monolithics come very close, but all these are not the norm...

.

Shot my last buffalo at approx. 25 yards as he was quartering towards me. We had been chasing/stalking/bumping these two dugga boys for a couple of hours and finally got into position to shoot.

I hit him exactly where I aimed, right through the heart, with a 400 grain Barnes X at just over 2,400 fps (chronographed) from my 416 Rigby.

That buffalo looked at me and seemed to say "is that all you got". He instantly came for us.

Just as I had finished getting my 2nd round into the chamber, the PH fired his 458 Win Mag (500 grain Barnes solid) and hit the buffalo about 4 inches higher than my first shot. He must of clipped the bottom of the spine, just before the shoulders because the buffalo dropped. We waited a few minutes (thick brush) and I put an insurance shot in the buff. We then approached and the entry hole from my first shot was spurting out blood like a hose turned all the way up. The PH said the buff would have died from my 1st shot in less than 50 yards. Problem was, he was headed our way and only 25 yards away.

The PH said that 99% of the time, they run away (like my first buff). However, this was that 1% time and in that scenario, you want the biggest/heaviest bullet your gun can handle.

Tim

Jeff,

I wonder if they were just trying to tell you that in a 416 remington case, that a 400 gr monometal was "long as a bad dream," and the 350 grain would be alot easier to load for?

Were they suggesting the 350 gr tripple shock or the solid?

Andy

Ditto Nick and Ray.

Barnes wants to sell more of their 350 grainers, gotta make the quota.

I used a 350 grain X-bullet on an 1800 pound water buffalo, broadside, and it did not exit. I am sure it would not travel the full length of a 1500 pound cape buffalo, but a 400 grain X at 2400 to 2500 fps probably would.

A 380 grain GSC FN at just over 2500 fps did exit that cape buffalo of mine.

A 350 grain/.416cal X or Triple Shock would be O.K. for herd shooting buff, but I too would prefer the 400 grain X, or the 370 grain North Fork soft, or 400 grain Swift A-Frame or 400 grain TB Bear Claw.

If you want through-and-through penetration: Speer AGS, TB Sledge Hammer, GSC FN, or North Fork if available. All these are FN-types of 370 to 400 grains.

There sure are a lot of good .416 cal. bullets nowadays.

500,

Saeed has agreed to put my test results on line in the On Line Magazine.

Ive already sent him the photos and text.

This guy does not waste any time getting things done!

I did not test Woodleigh's, just Hornady 375 and 458 steel jacket, 416 Kynoch, 458 Barnes, GS FN and NF FN, plus 7.62 Nato. I tested these at 1-8, 1-10, 1-12, 1-14 twist.

I too was worried about the Barnes. Naval bronze does deform some, and I was also worried about it shattering on heavy bone, so I shot it into cinder blocks and then water buckets to see if I could destroy them.

In .458 anyway, they seem "Good to go."

I am somewhat concerned there is so much marketability of a FN vs a RN that Barnes will drop the RN entirely. For me, I only want maximum penetration out of a solid, and for anything else Ill use those good bonded soft points of Mike Brady.

Would you guys rather have a solid that has maximum penetration, or enhanced tissue destruction?

If the FN does penetrate less, and Im pretty sure it does, how much penetration are you willing to give up for a FN?

Lets agree for a moment to disagree on super cavitaiton. Hal Ledbetter studies "fast events" (i.e. explosions and shaped charge plasma jets) for a living and doubts it is a significant factor in animal tissue.

Based on my tests I want a penetration at least equal to a .375 h and h for my solid. The FN dont make it but the 450 grain .458 RN does.

I dont know when the test will be published by Saeed, but it should be soon.

Andy

This is getting out of hand!

It is a wonder anything has ever died from a solid with all this nitpicking.

I would like to see the Barnes solid that bent from shooting something. In my experience, in shooting buff with it, they do not bend, and neither do Speer AGS's. The ones I have seen bend are Woodleighs and Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers.

The penetration has probably more to do with its penetration index than all this other stuff. Pick a solid and go hunting.